Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 September 23

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September 23

Welsh placename pronunciation

Any Welsh speakers here? Does anyone know the correct pronunciation of the placename Talacre? The article says (or implies) that the "acre" part is pronounced like English "acre", i.e. "ay-ker", but I thought it was like "ak-ree" or "ak-ray". Does anyone know for sure? 31.49.180.255 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:43, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Does Welsh orthography help any? --Jayron32 02:50, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Do you really want to know how it's pronounced in Welsh rather than in English? Otherwise, Welsh speakers won't be any particular help. For an example English pronunciation, see e.g. [1]. (Something like "talLAKreh", for anyone who doesn't want to/can't watch the video). Henry ^Flower 05:39, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

• I've heard it pronounced as "TAL-ak-uh" or "tal-AK-uh", but "Tal-AK-ruh" seems more correct. Talacre Gardens in London always seems to be "TAL-ak-uh" though. Smurrayinchester 08:05, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

This document says that "some historians consider the correct pronunciation of Talacre to be "Talacree"". (Feel free to add your own to that.) Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:22, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

The general rule of thumb for Welsh place names is that the stress lies on the penultimate syllable. [2]. Sounds Fascinating: Further Observations on English Phonetics and Phonology by J. C. Wells (p, 51) says: "The village of Talacre, not too far away but in north Wales, is properly tæl ˈækreɪ, being a Welsh compound of tâl 'end' plus the plural of acer from English acre". My experience is that the North Welsh coast is quite Anglicised, but with some Welsh-speaking areas not too far inland, which is somewhat supported by File:Welsh speakers in the 2011 census.png. Alansplodge (talk) 12:52, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, the plural would properly be aceri? I guess this has been contracted over the ages. I suspect locals will also typically loose the first syallable altogther so it's tlˈækreɪ. But certainly agree on the stress of middle syllable. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:59, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks for the replies. I have amended the article accordingly. 31.49.180.255 (talk) 13:46, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

As someone who originally came from that general area and was originally Welsh-speaking, I would normally pronounce it "tal-AK-reh", but recognising the prevalence of Anglicisation in the area I would not make a fuss about "tal-aker". Pronouncing Abergele as "ab-bur-gely", as many northwest English do, still makes me cringe even after half a century (it's "a-ber-GEL-eh"). Welsh orthography is not always a very good guide - there's a village a little further inland called Bodfari where an uncle of mine had a farm, which you might think is pronounced "bod-VAR-ee" but is actually "bod-FAR-ee". You can't win! :) --Arwel Parry (talk) 18:13, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

@Arwel Parry:. Originally the text read like this:

The hills of the Clwydian Range behind the village form the eastern boundary of the Vale of Clwyd. The name Talacre is a combination of the Welsh words tal, meaning end, and acrau, meaning acres. In the north-east Welsh dialect, acrau is pronounced as acre.

Not unreasonably, I feel, I understood "pronounced as acre" to mean pronouned as the English word "acre", i.e. as "ay-ker". Now I am wondering whether the text actually meant "ak-reh" all along. It sounds as if you may have a knowledge of that dialect. What do you think? Could acrau be pronounced "ay-ker"? 31.49.180.255 (talk) 00:13, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

English and anglicised people would tend to pronounce it "ay-ker". -- Arwel Parry (talk) 09:40, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Surely not? In the name "Talacre" yes, but they'd surely not pronounce the Welsh word 'acrau' as "ay-ker"? They'd go /ækraɪ/ or /ækreɪ/. --ColinFine (talk) 19:33, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

It may be spelt "Raymond Luxury Yacht," but it's pronounced "Throat Warbler Mangrove". And don't call me Shirley! μηδείς (talk) 00:41, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the incisive analysis of Welsh phonology, there. Medeis. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:13, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

What does AFAIK stand for?

I see some Wikipedians use that in their messages sometimes. --Darth Tacker (talk) 21:29, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

As Far As I Know ---Sluzzelin talk 21:30, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Unless you're Scottish. Then it's as far as I ken. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:25, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Type most any of these weird acronyms into Google, and you will find the answer right away. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:36, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

GIYF? ---Sluzzelin talk 21:39, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Whew! Before I clicked through, I was afraid it stood for "Google it, ya fuck!", a kind of updated RTFM. Carry on. Matt Deres (talk) 00:02, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Good point. There is STFW too ... Read RTFM! ---Sluzzelin talk 00:10, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

If everybody searched the web for themselves, there'd be no need for Reference Desk editors... What would we do with ourselves? Alansplodge (talk) 23:43, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

See also our List of acronyms. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:47, 23 September 2016 (UTC)