Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 November 23

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November 23

Trading in English varieties

An iconic Little Chef in Nottinghamshire, designed by Sam Scorer. This Little Chef has now closed and ceased trading.

This picture and caption come from the Little Chef article, which covers a British restaurant chain. I don't remember hearing this sense of "trading" in en:us ("out of business" would be used in the image caption), and while I'm familiar with it in en:gb, I don't know about other varieties. Does one encounter this sense of "trading" in en:ca, en:au, en:in, en:nz, etc, and if not, how is the same meaning normally expressed in these various national varieties? Nyttend (talk) 01:35, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I would also say "has gone out of business" in Canadian English. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:38, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

"Ceased trading" is used in American English, but it has more of a financial and a historical connotation, or it means dealing in a certain product, along the line of this made up example: After the founder died, the company ceased trading in imports from his native Holland and concentrated on the toy lines he had developed in the United States. Ceased trading might be used to mean closed shop as a means of avoiding saying "went out of business" repeatedly, but it's not a common or conversational usage. (I did search for examples of "ceased trading" but the results were decidedly British.) μηδείς (talk) 03:27, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

That sounds right; "ceased trading", "is no longer trading", etc. sound like you're talking about New York Stock Exchange brokers when the day's closing bell has just sounded. Aside from financial contexts (see the third sentence of the NYSE article), it seems to require mention of what's being traded, and aside from barter, it seems to be things like Trade (sports) or international trade: definitely not anything that would have its market share threatened by Burger King. Nyttend (talk) 04:29, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

"Ceased trading" and "Went out of business" are synonyms in NZ. We follow British usage in a great many things, but there are some astonishing differences. A truck is a truck, not a lorry. Footpath, not pavement, is the term for sidewalk. Akld guy (talk) 04:50, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Is there an article on differences between en-gb, en-nz, en-au, en-ca, etc., in the same way as Comparison of American and British English and it's linked-to lists? Bazza (talk) 13:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think many British people would say "Oh, did you notice that the Little Chef on the bypass has ceased trading" without sounding like a solicitors clerk. "Gone out of business" or "closed down" would be more usual in common parlance. Alansplodge (talk) 13:44, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

As a(nother) Brit, I'm perfectly familiar with the term and might well use it in a business context, though would be less likely to in casual speech. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 15:11, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Alansplodge (talk) 16:42, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

The usage is akin to "tradesman".

In US English, "trade" tends to be used to describe "overseas business on a macroeconomic level", "interaction on stock/currency/commodity/etc. exchanges", or exchange of a barter type (trading baseball cards, trading two ore for one wood, etc.). It also appears in some canned expressions "tools of the trade", "tricks of the trade", etc. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:54, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

There is also the grocery chain Trader Joe's and there are various shopping malls by the name of Trader's Lane in places like Williamstown and Ocean City, NJ. These are retail establishments, not financial establishments or engaged in barter. μηδείς (talk) 20:20, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

It is always possible to find an exception. The chain Trader Joe's uses a self-consciously "old fashioned" but whimsical image of a 19th century sailing merchant or trader as part of its branding. Hence the maritime bells that cashiers ring to summon managers and much of the decoration on their promotional material. This use of trader is not a common one in everyday American English. Marco polo (talk) 21:01, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I have only driven past, never through a Trader Joe's. μηδείς (talk) 18:10, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Adding to the expressions: 'stock in trade' is common in America. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:53, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Lines from the song "For Lovin' Me": I ain't the kind to hang around / With any new love that I've found / Movin' is my stock in trade, I'm movin' on.... ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:00, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Meaning of the word 'wail'

A question from a non-native English speaker.

Here is an alleged quote of great jazz musician Charlie Parker: “You’ve got to learn your instrument. Then, you practice, practice, practice. And then, when you finally get up there on the bandstand, forget all that and just wail.”

What does the word 'wail' mean in this context? None of the explanations given on wikt:wail seem to be appropriate here.

Thank you! /Pj32na (talk) 18:59, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

From the Wiktionary page - verb 5, "To perform with great liveliness and force". Tevildo (talk) 19:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Per Tevildo. The use of wail in this context is related to "wail" as an emotional cry. Parker is advising players to let their emotions come out through the music, rather than to concentrate on the technical aspects. --Jayron32 19:10, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

The first two lines of "Jailhouse Rock": Warden threw a party in the county jail / Prison band was there and they began to wail. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

But remember, you've got to jump, jive, and then you wail. If you wail before jumping and jiving, I'm afraid you're just doing it wrong. --Trovatore (talk) 21:04, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Trovatore. Now I have a vicious ear worm. In case anyone missed the reference, I'll post the music video here [1], maybe that will help me purge it :) SemanticMantis (talk) 22:34, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Are not the dancers in the video doing the jitterbug rather than the jive sensu strictu? Tevildo (talk) 23:14, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't know that these words really have definitions quite that precise. I would call it generally East Coast Swing with lots of aerials. Could also be Lindy Hop, though I didn't see any swingouts, which is sort of the definitional move, but that doesn't mean they weren't there when the camera didn't catch them. There were also some couples mixing in Charleston steps. As for the "jive" article you linked, it claims that East Coast uses straight eighths for its triple steps, which I don't think is true, so I don't know how much credence I'd put in that article (TBH when you're doing fast triple steps, it's really pretty hard to make the distinction anyway, but when they're stepped through slowly in introductory classes, they're usually syncopated). --Trovatore (talk) 00:13, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

And from "Rock and Roll Music": I took my loved one over 'cross the tracks / So she could hear my man a wailin' sax [saxophone]. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:00, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

"To wail is to let loose a long loud cry... When it comes to expressing unhappiness, wailing lies at the extreme end of the spectrum — unless you're a jazz musician. In jazz terminology, wailing on one's instrument is actually a good thing." [2]

"Jazz Slang Dictionary - Wail: To play a tune extremely well. Count Basie did a tune called "Prince of Wails" -- a clever play on words. Damn, Basie's band can really wail." [3]

"The Beatnik's Glossary - To wail = to have a good time, to play a tune well" [4]

Actually, I think it originally comes from the sound made by a jazz trumpet. Air raid sirens "wail" too, see Air Raid Sirens Wail In Jerusalem Alansplodge (talk) 22:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

There's a line in Dire Straits' "Sultans of Swing": "You got guitar George, he knows all the chords, but it's strictly rhythm, he don't want to make it cry or sing". The idea is that a soloist, playing his instrument expressively, can make it sound like a human voice in a state of high emotion. --Nicknack009 (talk) 13:03, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Without restraint. Bus stop (talk) 13:16, 24 November 2015 (UTC)