Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 February 22

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February 22

How do speakers of tonal languages sing most kinds of songs?

How in the world do speakers of tonal languages sing most kinds of songs? Wouldn't the tonal aspect of their languages make that very difficult, if tone is of the utmost importance in their languages? Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 05:09, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Can't speak for other languages, but in Mandarin you would just sing without the tones. The meaning is usually clear from the combination of words and the context. — SMUconlaw (talk) 06:58, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

It's the same for modern Thai/Lao songs. Meaning is clear from context (the same is true for the hearing impaired who have to read lips, btw). In some traditional Thai and/or Lao music forms, however, (such as mor lam) the melody of the song is often determined by the tones of the words. Also interesting is that in Thai poetry, the โคลง meter prescribes certain tones for specific syllables.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 08:18, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Previous reference-desk threads here, here, and here. There may be others. Deor (talk) 11:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

cuckoo sign

I'm confused. What exactly does the "cuckoo sign" (A gesture, consisting of a twirling motion of a finger near the temple) refer to? Wiktionary asserts that the gesture indicates that "that a person may have a screw loose", which would explain the twirling, but not the cuckoo, unless the lunatic's brain is likened to a cuckoo clock (I seem to remember that from old cartoons, but I couldn't give an example). The equivalent German gesture is tipping, not twirling, one's index finger against the forehead and relates to the expression einen Vogel haben, which supposedly relates to an old superstition that birds may be nesting in the lunatic's head, but if the bird is ever specified, it's not a cuckoo, but rather a tit. Any ideas anyone? Also, is the tipping gesture really uncommon in North America? What about Britain? Tip or twirl? --Janneman (talk) 21:20, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

"Cuckoo" is an old slang term for "crazy"[1] and possibly the inspiration for the terms "kook" and "kooky".[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:00, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

mm, yes, and also for cuckold, but then the cuckold gesture or "horns" is something entirely else, which confuses me even more...--Janneman (talk) 22:04, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Forget "cuckold". The word "cuckoo" means "crazy", as used in America. As in "has a screw loose", "not playing with a full deck", etc. If that twirl is called the "cuckoo sign", it's because they both mean "crazy". Here is a rendition of "The Cuckoo Song", which Laurel and Hardy used as a theme. It even has words, including "I'm cuckoo and you're cuckoo". Perfect. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:12, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

In areas of America with a large hispanic presence it's called the locomotion. μηδείς (talk) 01:22, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

When I was at school, there was a more complex variation, with an accompanying chant: "Tap tap (tapping the temple with right forefinger) curly-wurly (making the twirling gesture described above) cuckoo! (pointing forward at forehead height with the same hand, mimicking the action of a cuckoo-clock)". It was used to harass or heckle people who were regarded as 'crazy'. And the connotation is definitely, as Bugs says, that of the bird itself. 'Cuckold' is unrelated; 'kooky' might or might not be. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:24, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

From Etymology Online - cuckoo (n.): " Slang adjectival sense of "crazy" is American English, 1918, but noun meaning "stupid person" is recorded by 1580s, perhaps from the bird's unvarying, oft-repeated call". Do you actually have cuckoos in America? Alansplodge (talk) 09:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

yes. --Jayron32 12:11, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

See Cuckoo#Distribution and habitat for the American cuckoos, of which some are Brood parasites. Shakespeare used the "stupid person" sense in Henry IV, Part 1 "A horsebacke (ye cuckoe) but a foote hee will not budge a foote". Dbfirs 12:21, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks; I should have read my own link. Further to User:AlexTiefling's childhood remembrances, in my 1960s childhood in London, the same gesture meant only "a screw loose". An accompanying ditty (sung to the tune of the Westminster Quarters) went: "Ding dong, ding dong, / Your brain's gone wrong; / There's a screw loose, / Now it's no use!". I haven't heard it since I left junior school though. Alansplodge (talk) 13:40, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I think the gesture itself has been around a lot longer than the label "cuckoo sign". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:51, 24 February 2015 (UTC)