Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 April 27

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April 27

Salvador, Bahia

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This article says Salvador's (Portuguese) historical "long name" is São Salvador da Bahia de Todos os Santos, which it defines as San Savior of All Saints' Bay. This seems like an almost-certainly flawed and/or inaccurate translation.

If "São" is indeed the equivalent of the Spanish "San," than it obviously begins with Holy Savior. "Bahia de Todos os Santos" obviously means 'bay of all saints' or All Saints' Bay. That would simply mean (City of the) Holy Savior of the bay of all saints (the current translation), or in other words, All Saints' Bay's Holy Savior, which simply doesn't make sense. It isn't the bay's savior, right?

Therefore, my best guess would be that the accurate English translation is (City of the) Holy Savior on All Saints' Bay. This is all independent speculation, and my question is whether anyone can help me confirm or deny this. Thanks, Swarm ^X 03:37, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

That seems closer. Be aware I do not speak Portugese, but I know some Spanish, and the languages are fairly similar. Translating Portugese São to Spanish San is well-nigh useless. It's from Latin sanctus and means "Saint" or "Holy" or "Sanctified", depending on context. Reading the history, the bay was discovered first, on All Saints' Day, hence it was called Bahia de Todos os Santos, literally "Bay of All the Saints" or "All Saints' Bay". São Salvador means "Holy Savior" (i.e. Jesus). The city is within a Brazilian state called Bahia (the bay itself is now spelled Baia), and the state name Bahia is tacked onto the city name to distingush it from other cities of the same name. The article says the city is called São Salvador da Bahia de Todos os Santos. In effect, they are using Bahia to serve two purposes. If it were me, I would say, "[The City of] the Holy Savior [i.e. Jesus], of [the state of] Bahia, of All Saints [Bay]." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Trying to "back into" the name via Google Translate, I found that "San Savior of Bahia of All Saints" works out exactly to São Salvador da Bahia de Todos os Santos. The reason I have to do it way way is that if I say "Holy Savior..." it translates as salvador santo, which I take to be the more modern way to say it in Portugese. I would still go with my translation if it were me. However, perhaps a Portugese speaker will turn up here. I know we have some. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Portuguese São, like Spanish San, usually corresponds more to English Saint than to holy in that it's generally used in conjunction with names and is not a garden-variety adjective. The corresponding adjective is santo and follows the noun. So a more accurate translation would be "Saint Saviour of All Saints Bay". In English-speaking countries, Saviour isn't usually used as a first name, but in Spanish/Portuguese it is (e.g. Salvador Allende), and the equivalent is used as a name in Italian too (e.g. Salvatore Mineo). Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure Bahía is named after Jesus in his capacity as Savior, not after some other saint who happened to be named Salvador. —Angr (talk) 07:17, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Compare El Salvador (The Saviour) with her capital San Salvador. It's hardly likely that the latter is named for a St Salvador while the former is named for The Saviour. The Wikipedia article for San Salvador says its full name is La Ciudad de Gran San Salvador (The City of the Great Holy Savior), while the Wikipedia article for El Salvador translates La República de El Salvador as "The Republic of The Savior". —— Shakescene (talk) 07:29, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Cidade do São Salvador da Baía de Todos os Santos - I would say the locals translate it as , The city of the Holy Savior of All Saints' Bay. This translation also gets a lot of returns via google - http://www.salvador.info/salvador-facts.html - I have no idea who the holy savior bit is in reference to. I think the confusion originates from linguistic variations in modern usage, complicated by the similarities between Spanish and Portuguese. So I agree the current translation in our article is incorrect.Off2riorob (talk) 10:08, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Much of the confusion may come from the fact that they don't use possessive apostrophes in Spanish and presumably Portuguese. It isn't said "John's cat", it's said "the cat of John". So, we literally interpret it as "The city of the Holy Savior of the Bay of All Saints." When you reduce it to "Holy Savior of All Saints' Bay", the "of" (based on my basic Spanish knowledge) gives "All Saints' Bay" possession of "Holy Savior". It seems unlikely that the Portuguese would call Jesus "All Saints' Bay's savior". So the point raised by Baseball Bugs is actually pretty interesting. Perhaps "Bahia" or even "Bahia de Todos os Santos" actually refers to the name of the state and is one noun. Archaic Portuguese...who would've thought it'd be this confusing? Swarm ^X 11:38, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I think "Holy Redeemer" is a more common form than "Holy Savior". I've seen a number of churches of the Holy Redeemer, but few or none called "Holy Savior". --Xuxl (talk) 15:27, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

In which language? I can't tell you how many times a week I hear American Christians use the expression, "Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

American Roman Catholic speak. The "holy redeemer/savior" concept is very present in catholic dogma, with lots of places called San Salvador, São Salvador, Saint-Sauveur, etc. as a result (but none in the US as far as I know). --Xuxl (talk) 16:10, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Possibly because the USA was primarily Protestant at first. There are of course many Spanish city names in the southwest that are prefixed by "San" or "Santa". Cities with English names tend to be secular. In any case, I'm not seeing an American city named San Salvador. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Roman Catholics are most certainly not the only Christians who use the formula "Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"! It's in the Bible, so it's fair game for all sola scriptura Protestants as well. Pais (talk) 16:38, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely. I'm just saying that cities settled by protestants tended to be named in a secular way, though I'm sure there are exceptions. Corpus Christi, Texas, for example. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, my indentation made it unclear who I was responding to. I was objecting to Xuxl calling the formula "American Roman Catholic speak". Pais (talk) 17:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I was also only refering to place names, not the use of the term in other religious contexts. --Xuxl (talk) 17:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I think you'll find that most of the "Saint" city names in America, such as St. Louis and St. Paul, were founded by Roman Catholic missionaries/explorers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I've asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Brazil#Advice about translating the full name of Salvador, Bahia. Forgive my BOLDness. —— Shakescene (talk) 04:26, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Just to point out that in the Church of England there are many churches and schools with the dedication St Saviour's, including Southwark Cathedral.[1][2][3][4] Alansplodge (talk) 11:43, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

This discussion, of course, should really have moved over some time ago to Talk:Salvador, Bahia. I've never heard of St. Saviour's and if I had, it wouldn't register as Jesus Christ but as some saint I'd never heard of, so this just isn't a very useful translation for most readers. It adds to possible confusion rather than reducing it. I know that Saint or Sankt or Sanctus or Santo can mean Holy as well as Saint in some other languages, but it's such a very rare and archaic use in English that I'd have to think five times before recognising it. You don't see "Saint Heart" or "Saint Redeemer" or "Saint Virgin". "Saint Cross" maybe just possibly, but I think only as a translation from Saint Croix or Santa Cruz.—— Shakescene (talk) 20:48, 28 April 2011 (UTC) ¶ And I just realized that (even though I know some Spanish, attended UC-Berkeley and lived in Northern California for 25 years) I'd always thought of Santa Cruz as a female saint, like Santa Barbara or Santa Monica. So even if Saint Saviour were more common, that wouldn't mean that readers would understand it as referring to Jesus Christ. —— Shakescene (talk) 20:53, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to be a smug bastard but[5][6][7][8]. Actually, I agree with you, "Holy Saviour" would be better but I wanted to say that "Saint Saviour" is not unknown to English speakers, especially English ones. Alansplodge (talk) 21:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

My local hospital is the Hospital of St Cross (Rugby, UK). --TammyMoet (talk) 07:46, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Fairly common in Australia, too. Googling "saint saviour australia" gets over 4 million! hits. That's a misleading number, but it shows it's far fom unknown. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 00:01, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Found some sources which agree on a translation. I'll just go with that I guess. Swarm ^X 16:01, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

URDU PAGES

HI THERE, I AM NEW HERE. MY QUESTION IS THE URDU PAGES. THERE ARE NOT MUCH PAGES OF URDU? here is the link http://ur.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D8%B6%D9%84%D8%B9_%D9%85%DB%8C%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%DB%8C_%DA%A9%DB%8C_%D8%AA%D8%B1%D9%82%DB%8C_%D9%85%DB%8C%DA%BA_%D8%AE%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%AA%DB%8C%D9%86_%DA%A9%D8%A7_%DA%A9%D8%B1%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1&action=edit&redlink=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Riaz Niazi (talk • contribs) 16:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

See ur:خاص:Statistics for how many pages there are at Urdu Wikipedia. There are over 16,000 content pages there. If you notice any articles that are missing there, feel free to sign up at ur:خاص:UserLogin and start writing articles. Pais (talk) 16:33, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

You might find ضلع میانوالی (Mianwali District) a good starting point. If an article doesn't exist you can create it, but please remember that if you intend to write in the Urdu language please do so on the Urdu Wikipedia. Astronaut (talk) 19:56, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Fatah & reverse acronyms

In Fatah#Etymology, the name is described as being a "reverse acronym"; i.e., the letters are taken from the words in reverse order (حركة التحرير الوطني الفلسطيني ḥarakat al-taḥrīr al-waṭanī al-filasṭīnī). Is this especially common in Arabic, and are there examples of similar acronyms in other languages? Lesgles (talk) 21:08, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Acronyms that work in French are often in reverse order in English. For example ONU = UNO, United Nations Organisation. UE = EU, European Union. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but that's because in French the words are written in that order. I'm interested in instances where within the same language the acronym is formed backwards in relation to the words. I initially thought, "it's because Arabic is written from right to left", but that doesn't really make any sense, and now I see that acronyms like Hamas are formed in the normal way. Lesgles (talk) 23:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Lesgles -- In traditional Islamic historical terminology, a fatħ فتح (literally "opening") is the first invasion by Muslims into a non-Muslim territory, and you can bet that Arafat &co. were a lot more concerned with invoking such historical memories than with accurate acronymizing. Anyway, حتف means "death"... AnonMoos (talk) 03:26, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

The pseudonym of the creator of Tintin comes to mind. Georges Rémi took his initials - GR - and reversed them - RG - which as pronounced in French become Hergé. --Nicknack009 (talk) 16:21, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Good one; I hadn't thought of that! Lesgles (talk) 17:06, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

It's an example of the French slang called Verlan, itself an example of syllable-reversal: l'envers. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:33, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Not directly on point, but: Jewish texts in Hebrew sometimes mangle abbreviations to avoid their being spelled the same as words with bad connotations. Thus, רבי עובדיה מברטנורא ‎(Rabbi Obadiah of Bertinoro) is often abbreviated ר״ב rather than רע״ב because רעב means "famine". Likewise, the number 39 is often written (especially by Sepharadim) ט״ל rather than ל״ט (which would follow the usual pattern), as טל means "dew" while לט means "black magic" (or something like that; I'm not sure exactly). And, again, the year 5751 is often written תנש״א (as תנשא means "you'll be uplifted"), rather than the expected תשנ״א (as תשנא means "you'll hate").—msh210℠ 17:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Since Fatah#Etymology describes an alternate etymology, isn't it possible that the reverse-acronym story is just a story? A sort of backronym? Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:30, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

If it's a reverse backronym, wouldn't that be a frontronym? --Jayron32 20:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

A 'frontronym'? I think this is a Jayronym.... :) --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)