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Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 May 3

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May 3

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Purpose of colon in IPA?

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Someone added colons to several IPA pronunciations (example) for articles on my watchlist a few days ago. Since I can't use IPA, I'm confused — what's the point of the colon? Does it separate syllables? I can't find a colon used in this way in any of the examples found at Wikipedia:IPA for English. Nyttend (talk) 01:03, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It indicates a long segment. It's not technically a colon, but two small triangles. rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense; thanks. I can see the triangles when I change to 200% zoom. Nyttend (talk) 02:01, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Question hijack!)If it has to be so zoomed in to be able to discern, what's the point of it being triangles? Vimescarrot (talk) 08:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Different people view screens at different sizes and with different fonts. Also, the text should be semantically correct even if the difference between two characters can't be discerned by the naked eye (for the sake of searching text, etc.). This is why we carefully use Cyrillic letters like а, е, ё, ѕ, і, ї, ј, о, р, с, and х when writing Russian, Macedonian, Ukrainian, and Serbian words at Wikipedia, even though the shapes of those letters are identical to the Latin letters a, e, ë, s, i, ï, j, o, p, c, and x. +Angr 09:16, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe VimesCarrot is referring to an oft-forgotten time back in our distant dark ages when screens and search engines didn't exist. The character in question was originally two triangles to differentiate it from a colon, presumably. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:28, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No doubt, although in practice, most phonologists can't be bothered to make the distinction, and regularly use the normal typewriter colon (:) to indicate length. In fact, I had to break myself of the habit of using : to indicate length when I started editing Wikipedia. +Angr 17:47, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it is a colon. However, it is not U+003A COLON (:), but rather U+02D0 MODIFIER LETTER TRIANGULAR COLON (ː). See here. 12.53.165.6 (talk) 17:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Short for 'Jeremy'?

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On Top Gear, James May will often call Jeremy Clarkson something that sounds like "Jesser" to my American ears. Am I hearing this correctly? Is it short for Jeremy? Dismas|(talk) 09:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is not short Jeremy in the conventional way, that would be Jerry or Jem. Jezzer is a laddish (schoolboy) way of 'shortening' the name. In the UK people called Barry are occasionally referred to as 'Bazzer'. The most famous owner of this style of name was Paul Gascoigne who was widely known as 'Gazzer'. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 09:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're probably right. I noted that Clarkson has 3 given names, whose initials are J. C. R. I wondered if he was called "Jay Cee Ar" when he was a kid, and that slurred into "Jesser". But if what you say is true, that's probably it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If what he says is right (and it is), that's definitely it. These nicknames are also common in Australia, but we spell them differently: Bazza, Jezza, Gazza ... -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As we also do in the UK. Bazza (talk) 13:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, C. Daddy! I'll add this to the list of things, along with rhyming slang, that I don't understand about slang from that area of the world. Dismas|(talk) 10:30, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Replacing /r/ with /z/ seems to be common in the formation of British nicknames. Another example is the character of Gary in The Full Monty, who was called "Gaz". Other sounds can also be substituted for /r/; e.g. /l/ in the name Sally, which was originally a nickname for Sarah, though I wonder how many women called Sally nowadays are actually named Sarah. +Angr 10:47, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mary -> Molly -> Polly. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:03, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Someone named Jeremy will commonly be called Jez in England. The Oxford -er is kind of what's going on when Jez becomes Jezzer, note the mention of Gazza at the bottom of that article. Tinfoilcat (talk) 10:58, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Top Gear website spells it Jezza. Vimescarrot (talk) 13:09, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
[Incidentally, Jerzy is the Polish version of the masculine given name George. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)][reply]
I didn't know that. I always wondered what New Jerzy was named for. +Angr 15:27, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it was named for Old Jerzy. Hope that helps. Oh, and do you know what rhymes with Orange? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I won't bank on anyone pronouncing it "noo yezhy".  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC) [reply]
Blorenge. Vimescarrot (talk) 21:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sporange is the usual answer. What rhymes with 'purple', though? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nurple, of course! Adam Bishop (talk) 23:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So how do you get from Charles to Chuck (US) and Chas (UK)? -- SGBailey (talk) 09:18, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about Chuck, but I assume Chas is from the abbreviation "Chas." that used to be common, like "Wm." for "William". +Angr 10:20, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have heard Chazzer! Alansplodge (talk) 11:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All Australian Sharons eventually get called Shazza. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 13:07, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd've thought they'd all eventually get called Sheila. +Angr 13:19, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's extraordinarily outdated, Angr. I have an aunt (dead; she'd be 90 now if she were still kicking) and a cousin (aged c. 65) named Sheila, but they're the only Sheilas I've ever known. Seriously. The only notable Australian Sheila on our list was born in 1916. It's as completely obsolete these days as Archibald, Ethel or Myrtle for actual people's names; and it's virtually never heard in reference to generic or random or anonymous women. It's part of the lore of how Australians express themselves and it may once have reflected reality, but certainly doesn't any more. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC) [reply]
Regular parlance on Neighbours, though, 20 years or so ago..... --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:49, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I sort of rest my case. Those people and their counterparts on similar shows like Home and Away all seem terminally addicted to milkshakes, which in the real world have become more or less as obsolete in Australia as Sheilas and cobbers. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC) [reply]
But you say that and you ruin the whole idea behind Sheilas' Wheels. "Australia is one of the only places in the world where one woman's name is an expression used to refer to all women." How could you bust the myth! :D Maedin\talk 21:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My quest for Truth overrides all such petty considerations. If you caaan't haandle the Truth, you cannot come with me. In the interests of international fairness and acknowledging that not literally 100% of them are actually like this, I'm even prepared to ditch the image of the fat, camera-toting, Hawaiian-shirt-wearing, loud-mouthed, crass, vulgar, ignorant American tourist.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC) [reply]
Oh, that one's not true, either?  :-/ Clearly time to rearrange my perceptions then!  :) Maedin\talk 22:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic name of the Mossad

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I am looking at http://www.mossad.gov.il/Arabic/AboutTheMossad.aspx, which states the Arabic name of the Mossad. I cannot tell which string of characters is the official Arabic name of the Mossad. Which one is it? WhisperToMe (talk) 19:16, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

الموساد (which includes the definite article al-). +Angr 19:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(EC) الموساد --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:38, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I should have clarified. What about the full name of the Mossad (in English it is "Institute for Intelligence and Special Operations")? WhisperToMe (talk) 19:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, for that you'll need someone who actually knows Arabic, instead of someone (like me) who merely recognizes the letters of the alphabet! :-) +Angr 19:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's Arabic: الموساد للاستخبارات والمهمامّ الخاصّة. It's interesting that it's still called "al-Mossad", since "mossad" is a Hebrew word, not Arabic. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, I'm trying to transliterate it, but my Arabic is extremely rusty and I'm not sure how the word for "operations" is pronounced. The rest of it is "al-Mossad" or I guess more accurately "al-mūsād li'l-istikhbārāt wa'l-(mahmāmm?) al-khāṣṣa." Adam Bishop (talk) 20:03, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much, Adam :) - I added it to the Mossad article. WhisperToMe (talk) 21:01, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The reason that one word looked so unusual is because it is apparently a misspelling on the official Mossad website. There are other Google results with a spelling that looks like a proper word, and is actually in the dictionary: الموساد للاستخبارات والمهام الخاصة, in which case the word is "مهام", "mahāmm". Adam Bishop (talk) 12:48, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is this Dutch?

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I can almost understand this! http://www.mindz.com/plazas/Getting_Things_Done_%28GTD%29/blog Is it mainstream Dutch, or perhaps Fresian which I understand is closer to English? Thanks 92.28.253.63 (talk) 20:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's Dutch. Xenon54 (talk) 20:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic names of some Israeli subjects

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Here is another request for Arabic names of Israeli subjects

This time there is no official website for the official names. This question needs someone good at Arabic.

The following need their Arabic names:

WhisperToMe (talk) 21:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

مطبخ إسرائيلي is Israeli cuisine. Arabic has no article about it, but it is listed at their Middle Eastern cuisine article. Based on other airport articles the airports should be easy; مطار إيلات is Eilat. We'll have to find Arabic spellings of the other places and names before we can figure out the rest (I'll keep looking when I have more time). Adam Bishop (talk) 23:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that اوفـدا‎ مطار is Ovda Airport. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:47, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
مطار سدي دوف is Sde Dov Airport - they didn't bother translating "field" into Arabic. There is even an Arabic article, it's just not interwikied anywhere. There is one Google result (from an Israeli government site) for Dov Hoz Airport, مطار دوف هوز. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:59, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, excellent, the Arabic article about Ben Gurion airport lists some airlines: خطوط إسرإير is Israir Airlines and خطوط أركيا is Arkia Airlines. That didn't take as long as I thought it would. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for pointing them out to me - I added the Arabic, and I interwikied the Arabic article. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:33, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Colon

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What is the proper usage of this punctuation mark ':'? please give me examples of correct usage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.230.67 (talk) 22:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See Colon (punctuation). Algebraist 22:17, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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