Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 July 4

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July 4

english to welsh translation

How do you say summer fair in welsh? (I am doing a school poster and want to write it in english and welsh)

You could have a peek at some of these sites which offer English to Welsh / Welsh to English translations. Lanfear's Bane

I'd guess it's "ffair haf," but it's been a long time since I took Welsh. Katya 02:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I always like gŵyl, but that's more of a holiday or festival. Of course, ffair translates 'fair' most accurately. — Gareth Hughes 10:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hose hockey

Does anyone know what "hose hockey" means? It was posted in reply to a comment I made on the Humanities desk, and I haven't the foggiest what was intended by it. DuncanHill 02:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I am assuming from the context that an inflatable version of ice-hockey is not what was meant. DuncanHill 02:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it was supposed to have been "Horse hockey" and the "r" just got dropped. BTW, "horse hockey" means "crap" or "shit" but in a less offensive manner, sort of like the way one would say "buffalo chips" or "cow peas". Reminds me of the time when I was asked in an e-mail if I knew of any good "layers" (it was supposed to have been "lawyers"). CJLippert 02:59, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you - I must admit "horse hockey" would have suggested polo to me... as for buffalo chips and cow peas, I wouldn't have known them either! DuncanHill 11:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that should be "cow pies", not "peas", unless you have rather remarkably small cows.... - Nunh-huh 11:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Desperate Dan eats cow pies. DuncanHill 11:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

That all depends. The big poop plop from cows are called "cow pies" but the "cow peas" come from rabbits. CJLippert 13:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Cyrillic forms

Most Cyrillic typefaces look like roman, because the first printers in Russia were (if memory serves) Dutchmen imported by Peter the Great. Older Cyrillic lettering has very different forms. I have books on how to write various medieval Latin scripts stroke by stroke; I used to have a big book on Arabic calligraphy; it's easy to find pictures of the various styles of Chinese writing ... but I've found nothing on Cyrillic. Got any pointers? —Tamfang 05:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The first printer in Russia was Ivan Fyodorov, a contemporary of Ivan the Terrible. The Ukrainian authors credit Petro Mohyla with having westernized the Cyrillic script with a view to facilitating its learning, reading, writing, and printing. In 1707, Peter the Great adopted the so-called civic Cyrillic script for lay literature published in Russian. Some believe that it was he who designed the letters, but this is a mere speculation. Until the Russian Revolution, the Russian Orthodox Church continued to use medieval scripts for many purposes. All the Bibles printed in Russia before 1917 feature ancient Cyrillic lettering. --Ghirla^-трёп- 23:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• Seems to me the chart in Early Cyrillic alphabet shows the letters well enough to figure out the stroke-by-stroke. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

From my knowledge of Russian, Cyrillic is never written by hand so as to resemble the printed characters. That would be as eccentric as writing English with serifs. Rather, cursive is used exclusively, so I'd advise you to use cursive, which should be exampled in a good Russian textbook (basic chart here). (When learning Russian, I was made to write so much in cursive that I acquired a more fluent hand in it than in English, where my writing still bears the influence of the Cyrillic...) Wareh 22:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hm. At least in Serbia, one is supposed to use plain "printed" Cyrillic letters when filling e.g. various official forms, so the assertion of "exclusive" cursive use seems too far fetched for me. Maybe that's just because our Supreme Culture™ was poluted by foreign malicious elements :-P.
In any case, I read Tamfang's post as pertaining chiefly to calligraphy, and the jpgordon's answer is a good one. Here are few illustrations of the medieval Cyrillic caligraphy, and I suppose a plenty of similar can be found in the internet.Duja► 12:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

...and here are some free typefaces, quite a few of those trying to imitate the medieval calligraphy. Duja► 12:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Quite right that I did not have the special case of calligraphic printing in mind. Also, I'm sure Russians also use "block letters" to fill out forms; I was only thinking of more usual uses of writing, and I don't doubt that "exclusively" is an exaggeration. Wareh 14:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Your original comment was correct. Most Russians use cursive even when filling out forms, although some - like me whose cursive writing is barely legible - prefer "block letters" to prevent misreadings. --Ghirla^-трёп- 14:26, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

If he were/ was rich....

I recently came across "If I were rich......".

Now I have always said (and thought) "If he was rich (or any other adjective here)" was correct.

Can you tell me why I need to use "were" instead of "was" when the subject is HE, SHE, I, or IT.

Awzium 06:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

It is in the subjunctive mood because it says something that is contrary to fact. "Was" is used with HE, SHE, I, or IT (amongst others) when in the past tense indicative mood. (it is also used with past tense subjuntive). eg.

"If I were rich, I would buy a car" (implying I'm not rich)

"When I was rich, I bought a car" (I was actually rich at some point)

A virtually identical phrase occurs in the lyrics to the Jerry Bock song 'If I were a rich man' from the musical Fiddler on the Roof. According to one website (there are many; a Google search will find one for you) these lyrics are: "If I were a rich man / Daidle deedle daidle / Daidle daidle deedle daidle dum / All day long I'd biddy-biddy-bum / If I were a wealthy man." I think that explains it.

"If I was rich" is often used in the same way as "if I were rich" in less formal and less educated speech and writing. It can also being used in contrast with the subjunctive; e.g. "If I was rich, I would be much happier, so you should give me a million dollars." "Son, most people think 'if I were rich, I'd be much happier.'" "But most people don't have a billionaire father."--Prosfilaes 10:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Some forms of the subjunctive are more commonly used in American English than British English (see American and British English differences#Use of tenses). If I remember rightly, H. W. Fowler was ready to abandon the subjunctive completely, except for a few stock phrases (e.g. 'If I were you', 'Bless you' etc.). Perhaps the subjunctive has made something of a come-back in British English since Fowler's time. — Gareth Hughes 11:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

If I was rich / if I were rich, in the hypothetical sense, are alternatives in British English. 'Was' is less formal (not: less educated). See Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, Quirk et al., 3.62.

Of course, there are situations in which "If I was..." is appropriate. Compare, for instance:

"If I were happy, I'd be sleeping better."

to

"My teenage pattern was simple. If I was happy, I was polite. If I was unhappy, I was sullen."—PaulTanenbaum 14:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Note also "The man looked to see if his son was still working," where some people may say were for hypercorrectness.--El aprendelenguas 20:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Note that in the contrary-to-fact (subjunctive) use of "were," the reference is not to the past, but to the present (or, sometimes more loosely, to the future). "If I were smarter, I wouldn't be here right now with you on this fool's errand!" Wareh 22:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon Biblical Names.

Parts of the bible were translated into Anglo-Saxon, we even have an article on it Old_English_Bible_translations, I was just wondering what names were used? Were Latin names used, or were there Anglo-Saxon equivalents of Jesus, Joseph, Mary, James, John etc? Cyta 08:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

They were Latin-based forms sometimes adapted to fit with Old English requirements. In small passages I have on hand, there's Abrahām, Isaāc, Daniēl, Daniēle (dative singular case form), Daniēles (genitive singular case form), Cyrus, Cyres (genitive singular case form), Abacuc (i.e. Habakkuk), Babilōn, Nabochodonosor, etc. Judea is Iūdēa-land, Jewish/Jew/Judean is Iūdēisc and Babylonian is Babilōnisc. AnonMoos 09:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks AnonMoos. With a little googling of my own I have found what I think are references to Jesus as hælend. But I can't work out if this is a modern or original translation. Apparently it meant healer. Cyta 09:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hælend (with long vowel in first syllable, can't find Unicode character for "æ" with macron) was the Old-English translation of Latin Salvator. AnonMoos 15:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the Old-English Wikipedia, the requested names are I(h)esus, Ioseph, Maria(m), Iacobus and Iohannes. — Gareth Hughes 16:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

ǣ --Kjoonlee 17:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

And for what it's worth, it's "Crist" in "The Dream of the Rood". - Nunh-huh 07:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your answers, now I know! Cyta 08:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC) z

robert mugabe

I am trying to clear up an apparent anomaly regarding the spelling of Robert Mugabe. There are quite a few other sites around with an alternative spelling of Robert Mugawbe or Mugawbee. I wondered if there ever was such a spelling . wiki seems not have any reference at all to a possible existence to this alternative. I wondered if there might be a historical background to the spelling which might have evolved or been overlooked with time. Is anyone able to throw some light on this or explain how these other sites seem to have got hold of an alternative. What sparked me off was that I had a faint recollection of the alternative but now there is a debate as to which one could be correct

Many thanks

DP

They seem to simply be errors. If you do a search in the News Section [1] of Google they both return 'Did you mean: Mugabe?'. Lanfear's Bane

The CIA World fact book has it as Mugabe [2] - X201 11:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe they're confusing Mugabe with Zimbabwe (or, as some people pronounce it, Zimbwabe). -- JackofOz 12:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I would bet that "Mugawbee" is often an intentionally derogatory misspelling... AnonMoos 15:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Czech Stress on first syllable

If, as I am led to believe, all Czech words without exception are pronounced with the primary stress on the first syllable, does this mean that Czechs would pronounce Martina Navratilova's name MAR-ti-na NAV-ra-til-o-va? -- JackofOz 12:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Only one-syllable prepositions and proclitica and enclitica are exceptions. Such a preposition takes the stress; pro Martinu (for Martina) would have stress on the preposition. Proclitica and enclitica (reflexive pronouns, auxiliary verbs, etc.) have no stress in Czech. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 13:30, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

In addition, all of the "a" vowels are broad, as in "star," not short, as in "cat." The latter vowel, IPA /æ/, doesn't exist in Czech. Also, the second and third a's in "Navrátilová" have accents on them, so they should be held twice as long as a normal "a" vowel. Oh yeah, don't forget to roll the r's, as in Spanish. -- Mwalcoff 22:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, you might also want to know that both of the written Ts are pronounced as palatal consonants, IPA [c], not alveolar consonants, IPA [t]. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 00:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Although the difference between /t/ and /c/ may be too little to worry about... I've never even noticed that Czechs pronounce the letter "t" in a manner different from that of English speakers. -- Mwalcoff 01:59, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't agree that the difference is too little to worry about. /t/ and /c/ are phonemes in Czech! Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 09:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be a little surprising if they didn't. I've studied Russian and have had exposure to some other Slavic languages, so I can appreciate the distinction being made here. Apart from differences in the tongue positions, the English T is somewhat more "breathy" than the Slavic Ts I've heard. I was aware that Czech Rs are rolled, As are always long, and accented As are twice as long as unaccented ones. Thanks for the replies. -- JackofOz 03:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I suppose you are referring to the fact that the English [t] is aspirated in most positions, while the [t] in Czech is never aspirated. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 14:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Dead right, Daniel. -- JackofOz 22:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm certainly aware of the difference between the letters "t" (/t/) and "ť" (with the haček, /c/) in Czech. What I was not aware of, or had forgotten, is that a "t" before the letter "i" gets palatalized. While it's easy to hear the difference between /tɛ/ and /cɛ/, it's harder to hear the difference between /tɪ/ and /cɪ/, or /ti/ and /ci/. At least, I never noticed this in conversation. Incidentally, the IPA's use of the letter "c" to represent the palatal equivalent of /t/ is really confusing. -- Mwalcoff 01:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Just a little correction. :) "Ť" is not a palatalized "T"; it's a palatal consonant. A palatalized "T" is often pronounced by foreigners instead of the palatal [c]. Palatal and palatalized consonants are very different, at least in Czech. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 09:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Now I'm confused. While I'm not too familiar with Czech, I'd expect "Martina" to be pronounced /'martʲina/ rather than /'marcina/. You have just underlined the difference between "Ť" ([c]) and "T" ([t]), yet you said that it should be /'marcina/ in your second post in this thread. Which is it, then? Does "ti" yield /tʲi/ or /ci/? Duja► 11:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

It's [marcina] of course. The palatalized [tʲ] would be very unusual for a native speaker; however, it is often used by foreigners who have not yet learned how to pronounce a [c]. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 12:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

So, -ti- (always?) produces [ci], (except perhaps in borrowings, right?). What about -te-? I gather, Ť is then used in a similar way as French Ç (i.e. to denote [c] where subsequent vowel is back). You should better add that info to Czech phonology than explain fine nuances to curious foreigners at RD/L :-). Duja► 12:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in originally Czech words, written -ti- is always [ci]. In loanwords (esp. from Latin), it is [ti]. Writte -te- is [te], but written -tě- is [ce]. I can't tell much about the similarity with French; my knowledge of French pronunciation is not good enough for that. OK, I'll take a look at the article asap to see where some additional information would be useful. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 14:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems the article already has the information that we have been discussing here, doesn't it? Please check Czech phonology#Orthographic notes. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 15:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I guess no one bothered to scroll down enough; I'd say that indicates that the section is not well placed.
As for French: -ci- and -ce- normaly produce [si] and [se], while -ca-, -co- and -cu- produce [k]. So, in order to indicate etymologic origin of -c- before back vowels but maintain [s] sound, one must add the cedilla. Compare France [fʁɑ̃s] and François. [fʁɑ̃nswa] Duja► 15:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

A warning: to my ear, stress and pitch do not correspond in Czech as they do in English. For example, to me, the second syllable in zavírají "they close," heard on the Prague metro, sounds like the stressed one. I guess it's because it has the highest pitch in the word. I am willing to believe that linguists and native speakers hear the stress on the first syllable of such words, but it is nearly impossible for me as an native English speaker. --Cam 02:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure, the lenght of a vowel very often doesn't correspond with the stress. This is one of the aspects that makes Czech pronunciation difficult for example for German speakers. The stress in Czech doesn't go with the syllable with a long vowel, but—say—with the louder vowel. Except for some dialects close to Polish, it is always on the first syllable in proper pronunciation. I hear that word from the recording on the subway almost every day, but I never noticed that it could be pronounced in a strange way. I'll check that. ;) Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 09:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

After you've done that, you can give us - well, me at least - a lesson in how to pronounce Ř. I'm a natural mimic and can master most sounds quite quickly, but this one still defeats me. I can approximate it as Ž, which is good enough for most purposes, but that's not really the sound I want to make. -- JackofOz 13:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, in Serbian it's transliterated as "rž" (/rʒ/), (e.g. Dvoržak) which (I assume) gives an approximately good result, especially if you manage to "merge" the sounds enough. At least, that was my superficial impression when listening to Czech. Duja► 15:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I am not sure what's the best way to learn this. Actually, I don't think I've ever heard a foreigner pronounce Ř properly. The sound first appeared (approx. in the 13th century) as an assibilated rolled R. Try adding some sibilance to the R and you should be close to a proper Ř. Also note that Ř can be both voiced and voiceless. Little children—when learning to write—sometimes ask how to spell the other Ř, so it obviously sounds rather different. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 15:16, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

That's quite a challenge you've set me, Daniel: the first foreigner to pronounce Ř properly. I'll get back to you when I've achieved it. :) -- JackofOz 02:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Carachter Name

I need help choosing a male carachter name for a fan-fic and I decided to use a japanese name (for I chose Rin as another carachter). Could you give me a few suggestions for some names? (Please type them in english) -I PWN U ALL 16:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

This site (http://www.babynology.com/japanese_babynames.html) has a list which includes 'most popular'. Hope this helps ny156uk 17:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Ugh stay away from that site if you want Japanese names. It's a mess. If you're looking for male given names from Japan, Ichiro, Jiro and Mitsuro are very dull names. I'm personally familiar with... Kaoru, Kojiro, Taro, Kotaro, Sentaro, Nobu, Hiroshi, Hiro, Nobuhiro, Shinji, Shingo, Shin-ichi, Shinnosuke, Daisuke, Hide, Hideki, Hiroaki, Akira, Takeshi, Shun, Ryoji, Makoto, Takaharu, Takaki, Jinpachi, Jintetsu, Takao, Kanzaki, Koji, Katsuhiro, Ken-ichi, Haruki, Kengo, Kazuo and Ken.

If you're looking for surnames, Nakamura, Yamada, Tanaka, Kimura, Suzuki and Saito are dull names. I can't quote many surnames from the top of my head.. --Kjoonlee 17:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

this might help a bit - it's a guide to what Japanese surnames mean. You could find something that fits your character's personality or actions.

Actions during speech

In a bit of writing I'm doing, one of the characters glances at someones nametag while addressing them. The way I've done this ,“All right, thanks… (Norman glanced at the man’s nametag)…Roger”, seems a little odd. What's the best way to do this (should the quotation marks be closed first, and does it need brackets)? Laïka 17:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

How about: "All right, thanks, ... Roger", Norman said, glancing at the man's nametag? It's clear enough that the glance took place during the ellipsis. —Angr 17:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

If you need to have the description in the middle of the quote, then yes, you need to close the quotation marks first. You don't need parentheses. However, this construction is a bit tricky, because anything like "Norman glanced at the man's nametag" is a complete clause and can't be joined on with commas. I would recommend either "All right, thanks ..." Norman said, pausing to glance at the man's nametag, "Roger." a la Angr, or "All right, thanks,"—he glanced at the man's nametag—"Roger." The latter is less formal, and would not be acceptable for a newspaper, but may be fine for your purposes. Tesseran 18:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Newspapers don't normally report dialogue in this manner at all. In a work of fiction it would be fine, I'd say. --Anon, July 5, 2007, 06:31 (UTC).

Translation of obscure German term

What does geleute mean? I have searched many dictionaries and I have not found it in one. The context is a late 19th century Austria-Hungarian (Galician) legal document, in the form: “(name) Tochter der geleute (husband) und (wife) (family name)”. Then again, I may have misintrepreted it as the document is written in old German cursive, which I could only readt with the aid of a chart. Ratzd'mishukribo 20:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I can't find it in any dictionaries either. It looks like a collective form of Leute "people", and from the context you'd expect it to mean something along the lines of "married couple". All I can find on the Web are misspellings or archaic spellings of Geläute (a ringing noise), which doesn't make sense here. Any chance of uploading a scan of the original document? —Angr 20:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

It is fairly easy to find the spelling Geleute (neuter) in reference to the tolling of bells (Glockengeläute). But here's a source for the meaning "a suite of persons accompanying a lord or high personage," which if not immediately relevant to the document as reported by Ratzd'mishukribo at least suggests the existence of a form related to Leute. Wareh 15:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems that I deciphered the cursive wrongly after all: in another document written more clearly in the same hand it is spelled Eheleute. Thank you. Ratzd'mishukribo 20:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, that clears that up! Now that you mention it, though, I can see how Eh in Sütterlin or Kurrent handwriting could look like G. —Angr 06:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)