Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 December 10

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

December 10

Pronounce this way... or...

Is there a name for a phrase which, if pronounced differently from the word structure therein, has a different meaning? A simple example would be Mike Law transposing to my claw. This is not homework. hydnjo talk 00:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Looks like incorrect segmentation, an exampe of phonetic ambiguity. I don't know if there's a specific name. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 01:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Mis-segregated morphology? SamuelRiv (talk) 01:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

See Metanalysis.--K.C. Tang (talk) 01:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the idea. I meant to ask if there a name in today's popular culture. I know that there is a board game that uses this re-segmentation, I was just wanting to know if there is any formal name attached. Thanks, hydnjo talk 01:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Allography might interest you too. ---Sluzzelin talk 04:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Mondegreens and Daffynitions are also relevant. Graham87 10:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think Mr Law should think himself lucky his surname is not Hunt. Cyta (talk) 11:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of which, the article on that gentleman calls it a "homophone phrase". ---Sluzzelin talk 12:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank Saul - I think Mondegreen is it. And who wooda thought that that guy had his own WP article! I would imagine that some interesting stuff might come from speech to text editors, no?  ;-) hydnjo talk 17:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Mondegreen is close, but only applies to cases of accidental mishearing. --Anon, 04:25 UTC, December 12, 2007.

• Our definition allows for intentional mishearing - A mondegreen is the mishearing (usually unintentional) of a phrase .... -- JackofOz (talk) 04:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

• Hmm, it does say that, but that's nonsensical. You can't "mishear" something deliberately. --Anonymous, 22:18 UTC, December 12.

I know what you mean. However one can, for humorous intent, pretend to have misheard something. One of my favourites is the exchange in the Australian House of Representatives many years ago, when a member of the then Country Party was on his feet and was waxing lyrical about his constituency. (The Country Party has always had a strong association with rural areas.) He said something like "I'm not a city member, I'm a country member". To which the Labor icon Fred Daly shot back "Yes, we remember". :) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Just for curiousity sake, I ran the two terms through eSpeak and festival and while you can hear a difference between how they pronounce the clean and vulgar versions, you certainly couldn't tell in a blind test. - Taxman ^Talk 19:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Comma Use

I have a sentence very similar to the one below (I'm changing the names a little to generic ones, but the structure is the same). I worry that I have too many commas in the sentence, but feel that they're necessary. Can anyone give me some quick feedback? much appreciated.

While the Government of Pluto at the time preferred to keep the Encyclopedia in the hands of the merchants, and to keep elections in a more traditional, but less accessible,Swahili, John Smith saw these reforms as a barrier to personal government involvement.

--Ybbor^Talk 01:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It can easily be two sentences:

The Government of Pluto at the time preferred to keep the Encyclopedia in the hands of the merchants and to keep the elections in a more traditional, but less accessible Swahili. John Smith, however, saw these reforms as a barrier to personal government involvement.

Steewi (talk) 02:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that there needs to be a comma after John Smith. hydnjo talk 02:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

"But less accessible" is parenthetical, and must have a comma after "accessible" as well as one before "but". Same for "however" if it's placed within a sentence. Better to have it at the start:

The Government of Pluto at the time preferred to keep the Encyclopedia in the hands of the merchants and to keep the elections in a more traditional, but less accessible, Swahili. However, John Smith saw these reforms as a barrier to personal government involvement. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

(reduce indent) You can also use dashes instead of commas around "but less accessible". Each comma in the original by itself appears, however, appropriate, and I have no problem reading the sentence in its original, comma-rich form.  --Lambiam 02:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Man, you mean there isn't a cut-and-dry answer to this? That's it I'm going back to the math and science desks ;). In all seriousness, thanks. I'm going to go with Jack's two-sentance version, which seems much clearer. Thanks again to all. --Ybbor^Talk 02:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There isn't a wikt:cut and dried answer either. Another option would be to put "but less accessible" in parentheses. The occasional pair of parentheses can helpfully break up a comma-heavy sentence, but heavy use of parentheses tends to make things unreadable. For this sentence I agree that splitting it into two sentences is probably best. --Anonymous, 03:05 UTC, December 10, 2007.

I see another possible problem with the sentence - I'm not sure about to keep the elections in a more traditional, but less accessible, Swahili. Without seeing the original words it's hard to be sure, but I feel that the "a" in that clause might be incorrect. If Swahili here is a placeholder for another language, "the" would be preferable. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, "the" is right. By the "rules" of comma use, you only need one:

"While the Government of Pluto at the time preferred to keep the Encyclopedia in the hands of the merchants and to keep elections in the more traditional but less accessible Swahili, John Smith saw these reforms as a barrier to personal government involvement."

The comma after "merchants" is wrong because the conjunction is not followed by an independent clause. "But less accessible" is really parenthetical, as Jack pointed out, so although parentheticality is a judgement call, this time it's pretty clear. The comma after "Swahili" is highly recommended as a mercy to the reader. We've sent him the long way around, and it's only fair to blaze a tree where the path picks up again; we basically need a comma after a long introductory phrase. Short phrase, too, but you'll see "In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue", especially recently. So:

"While the Government of Pluto at the time preferred to keep the Encyclopedia in the hands of the merchants and to keep elections in the more traditional, but less accessible,Swahili, John Smith saw these reforms as a barrier to personal government involvement."

There are very few hard-and-fast rules about these sorts of commas. Most of what rules there are about commas are more stylistic and mechanical, like about the ones to do with dates and numbers and the ones in dialogue. One strict rule, however, is that when two independent clauses are joined by a conjunction, a comma is needed, except.... The only way is to pick a style book and stick to it. The Chicago Manual of Style is widely accepted as the American standard. --Milkbreath (talk) 11:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that parentheticality is often a judgment call. A test I often use is to actually use parentheses for the text in question and see how it looks. If the parentheses and their contents could be safely removed without destroying the primary sense of the sentence, it's parenthetical. Then the choice is whether to retain the parentheses, or replace them with either dashes or commas. It's not appropriate to retain only one parenthesis (eg. an opening one but not a closing one), so it's not appropriate to use only one dash or only one comma. If you regard the text as parenthetical, and you want to use commas as your marking device, then two commas are absolutely required. If you don't regard the text as parenthetical, then whatever commas you use (if any at all) will be governed by entirely different considerations. In this case, the decision of the government of Pluto was to use Swahili because it was more traditional. The fact that it was a less accessible language did not deter them from making their decision; they made it despite that. The primary reason was its traditionality. Thus, as far as the government was concerned, the lack of accessibility was irrelevant, and it would have been valid to make no mention of accessibility at all. Thus, any mention that is made of it - in a sentence like this - is parenthetical. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Run like a welshman

I was reminded of a quote from the show 'Family Guy' where the character Stewie shouts out that his father 'runs like a welshman' and wanted to know what this could be referring to.

I'm Welsh myself, so if it's a dig at us then please feel free to comment, nothing's too sacred to make fun of (not even Cymru)

I'm guessing it has something to do with either Peter (his father) being rather fat and large, and we are a slightly heavy set sort of people. Or possibly the UK nursery rhyme of 'Taffy is a Welshman, Taffy is a thief, Taffy came to my house And stole a piece of beef." As though he's running like he's stolen something.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, it's nice to see that people know Wales exists outside of Britain as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.5.66 (talk) 11:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it's probably in for its absurdity. Though as an Englishman, Welshmen aren't obscure to me I guess they would be to most Americans. Stewie's comments are often showing knowledge of something others wouldn't understand. In this case even I don't understand. Cyta (talk) 11:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

"Obscure" is an understatement. The average American can't even find his own state on a map. "Run like a Welshman" is meaningless to me, an American. I suspect that there is a reference, but it eludes me. I think Cyta is right, that it's supposed to be inscrutable, an idiotic play on things like "throw like a girl". Now, "sing like a Welshman" would make some sense, mind. --Milkbreath (talk) 11:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Judging by the description of Stewie's dad given above, I guess he didn't run as fast and gracefully as this Welshman? ---Sluzzelin talk 11:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should ask User:I run like a Welshman.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 14:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Good luck, he hasn't edited here in almost three years. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 15:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The only other joke about Welshmen I know of in an American show was Futurama's Welshie character (a play on Scotty) in a Star Trek-themed episode. The only stereotype they made use of was that he talked funny, which is a shame considering how many good Welsh stereotypes there are. Recury (talk) 15:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree it was probably intended to be obscure rather than to refer to some known stereotype. Stewie is well known not only for his matricidal and megalomaniacal tendencies but also for his affected English accent, so I think he was simply trying to "act English" by making a jibe at Welshmen. If anything, the stereotype played on is not that Welsh people run badly, but rather that English people make fun of Welsh people. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 15:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

OP here, thanks guys, while I think Angr may be right, I can't imagine the writers have a great understanding of the love/hate relationship between Wales and England. Maybe it is just nonsense, but I'm happy I'm not alone in understanding it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.5.66 (talk) 17:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it also may be related to the show's mission to be as offensive as possible to as many people as possible. Since no one ever makes fun of Welsh people, Stewie is showing a bit of "equal opportunity slurring". Et In Arcadia Ego Sum (talk) 18:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

"No one ever makes fun of Welsh people"! I take it you've never been to Bristol? DuncanHill (talk) 03:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You could post a question on the forum. Whoever wrote the joke is probably still around. Black Carrot (talk) 10:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I've not been to Bristol, but I take your point. Perhaps I should have said "Since no one in the American entertainment industry every makes fun of Welsh people. . ." Helene O'Troy - Et In Arcadia Ego Sum (talk) 18:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

As every good disciple of Seth Green and George Bernard Shaw knows, Stewie is based on the character Henry Higgins in the play Pygmalion. The Play eventually became the movie My Fair Lady. Many people believe that its theme has been reproduced into movies like Pretty Woman and Trading Places; in many cases our concept of “nobility” is based entirely on chance.

It is also correct to say that the point of the reference is not to make fun of people from Wales, but to point out that people from England make fun of people from Wales. I found this reference particularly humorous because its premise is entirely obscure.

From what I have read George Bernard Shaw was fascinated with the phonetics of language. He believed that we should adopt a different alphabet, and he actually devoted a large part of his will to this cause. His character, Henry Higgins (whom Stewie is based upon) is also interested in phonetics. He claims that he can listen to a person’s accent and then tell you precisely what neighborhood the person is from. Mr. Higgins is also interested in showing the absurdity of a class system. In the story they take a flower girl, and by changing only her accent and her clothes they enable her to “fit in” at the most elegant of parties…

In this reference instead of commenting on the way Peter talks, he comments on the way Peter runs. If they had not paid tribute to Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle in the episode “One if by Clam, Two if by Sea”, perhaps they may have had an episode where Stewie taught Peter how to run like a proper English gentleman? http://www.fredesser.com

Proper case for "post scriptum"

When abbreviating the Latin term post scriptum, should one use uppercase (P.S.), lowercase (p.s.), or mixed case (P.s.)?

Since the term itself is lowercase, logic would suggest the initialism should be lowercase too. In nearly every citation I have found, however, the initialism appears in uppercase.

Our communications director asserts that P.S. refers to "Passenger Steamer" (?!) and insists on our using lowercase in any communications.

Is there a preferred usage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.73.110.8 (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If, in the context of your work, it is useful to make a distinction between P.S. = "Passenger Steamer" and p.s. = "post scriptum", then yes, you better write it lowercase. Language is there to make our lives easier, not for us to stick to rules! — Kpalion^(talk) 18:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The OED lemma ("A formula used to introduce something added to a letter below the signature: post scriptum, matter written after. Later also used at the end of other types of text.") is "P.S., n." Also P.P.S. etc. Every one of the OED's examples from 1616 to 1991 is P.S. (except for the 1991, which has picked up that fad of dispensing with the periods and has PS instead). Wareh (talk) 19:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not a fad. The full stops are entirely redundant. 64.236.80.62 (talk) 12:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, our languages will have changed an awful lot from what they are when all the redundancies have been pruned away. Wareh (talk) 17:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

P.S. "Since the term itself is lowercase" is an absurd argument. In this world, we have the CV, the the IED, etc. Wareh (talk) 19:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Although many sources give postscriptum as two words, in Latin it is just a single word: the neuter form of the past participle postscriptum of the verb postscribo ("to write after/under").  --Lambiam 20:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Because post by itself can be the adverb "afterwards," it is not grammatically impossible to analyze the phrase as two words, scriptum post, something written afterwards. Wareh (talk) 20:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I understand the Oxford English Dictionary is considered fairly reliable when it comes to words and stuff. I'll go with their standard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.73.110.8 (talk) 20:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)