Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 May 28

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May 28

Is there any country nowadays that use demurrage or all countries just print enought money to make sure there is 100% chance of price inflation?

States economists believe that printing enought money to be 100% sure price inflation will happen is a good thing, so over time those holding money lose value, but at the past we had some econimists that didnt believed at that but at something different, instead of doing the previous thing to remove value from those who hold money, they actually create some tax where everyone that hold money will need to pay, so those holding money lose value by losing their money (and so losing value), this called demurrage.

My question is, is there any country nowadays that use the second method (demurrage) instead of the first one?2804:7F2:5A5:BB11:E5D6:F51F:3C59:23D2 (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

We have an article Demurrage (currency)... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:06, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Your assertion, “States economists believe that printing enought money to be 100% sure price inflation will happen is a good thing, so over time those holding money lose value,” is unsupported by any citation, and cannot be taken at face value. Absent such evidence, the question cannot usefully be addressed. DOR (HK) (talk) 16:22, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

What, thats literally they explanation they use to doing what they do, if they dont really believe at that (or those that convinced them dont really believe at that) is something we can't know, unless we use a lie detector at them and those who teached them (and those may be already dead).

Wikipedia article about Deflation (that has citations) talk about that too: "Economists generally believe that a sudden deflationary shock is a problem in a modern economy because it increases the real value of debt, especially if the deflation is unexpected. Deflation may also aggravate recessions and lead to a deflationary spiral."179.186.32.62 (talk) 19:21, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Compare two statements:

(a) “economists believe that printing enough money to be 100% sure price inflation will happen is a good thing, so over time those holding money lose value”

(b) “Economists generally believe that a sudden deflationary shock is a problem in a modern economy because it increases the real value of debt, especially if the deflation is unexpected.”

See the difference? The second one does not mention the archaic practice of printing money, does not mention any degree of certainty (i.e., 100%) desired in the outcome, and most certainly does not specify that it is desirable that “over time those holding money lose value.”

Please rephrase the question. DOR (HK) (talk) 16:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

1950 East Pakistan riots and 1964 East Pakistan riots

Is there any reliable media source and academic source from USA, Europe where the approximate total death toll is mentioned for 1950 and 1964 riots? In the articles different riots in different towns and cities are mentioned separately. -- 03:15, 28 May 2022 Ivan Tsar

1952, 1956

1952 article- https://www.nytimes.com/1952/10/11/archives/hindu-influx-taxes-bengalese-officials.html

1956 article- https://www.nytimes.com/1956/03/31/archives/pakistani-exodus-perturbs-indians-hindu-migration-into-west-bengal.html

I don't have NYtimes subscription. Did any violence take place in 1952 and 1956, which is either mentioned in the article or any other academic source? Ivan Tsar (talk) 03:15, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Re your first question re 1950: The Minorities in Post-Partition West Bengal: The Riots of 1950 contains a lot of figures, all cited. One reference is to a chapter in a book published by Oxford University Press, Living Together Separately: Cultural India in History and Politics, which promises to have a data table, you could request it at WP:RX. Sorry out of time to look for the other years but am sure others will step in very fast. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 21:08, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Am only finding refugee numbers for 1964 but for your last two questions re 1952 and 1956, see Bengali language movement and two academic sources are [1] and [2]. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:11, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Earliest appearance of Lombroso tattoo plate

I'm doing research for the article Sailor tattoos. In Commons, there's a plate featuring a French sailor from The Criminal, 2nd edition (1895). It appears to have also been in the first edition. As indicated by the caption in the image, the plate was originally published by Cesare Lombroso, but I'm not sure where. It isn't in the 1st edition of L'uomo delinquente (1876) , but I found it in a version from 1889. Can anybody help me find out if that's the earliest appearance of this plate? I want to make sure that I have the right date for its first publication. --IcebergSings (talk) 04:56, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Google Books has the 1884 edition, which does not appear to contain the image. Page 308 of the 1884 edition initially corresponds to page 297 of the 1889 edition, but diverges after the paragraph with the image of a cross above the numeral "208". In the 1889 edition, the plate with the tattoos, "TAV. XXIX", is referred to on the next page, page 298 (and on several later pages). I did not see any similar reference in the 1884 edition. BTW, I did not see where the 1889 edition refers to specifically figure 3 of the plate XXIX, with the tattooed text "LE PASSÈ ME TOURMENT[E] / LE PRESENT ME [DÉCHIRE] / L'AVENIR M' EPOUVANT[E]", nor where it states that this is a French sailor. However, this information can be found in a French atlas of 1888, of images related to Lombroso's oeuvre. This French atlas was published in Turin, Italy, by the same publisher as the Italian editions. It is the second edition. There were at least five Italian editions of the atlas.^[3] It is conceivable that the image was published in one of these atlantes before it appeared in the main oeuvre. In any case, we know that the image was probably published after 1884, but at the very latest in 1888.  --Lambiam 13:50, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much, that's exactly what I was looking for! I will incorporate it into the article. --IcebergSings (talk) 14:32, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Where is 600 Written Rocks?

Earlier this month some sensible person (user:Danial Bass) removed uncited content from Cup and ring mark which had claimed that examples of these prehistoric marks exist in Greece, specifically in Irakleia (Cyclades) and Larissa (regional unit). However, a couple of mentions of Greece remain in the article, so I thought I should check this out and either remove all of them or add references and expand on them. The Irakleia claim has a source, but the photos there show different kinds of marks - spirals - so probably not the same cultural tradition, and should probably be included as an aside, if at all. Larissa, however, is complicated because there does seem to be some text which ought to tell me exactly what the deal is with the rock art there, but I can't find where to read it:

Papanikolaou, Stelios. 600 Written Rocks: Prehistoric Rock Art from the Prefecture of Larissa Greece, 2005.

It's in this bibliography. It's mentioned in Rock Art Research 2008, which says Papanikolaou’s (2005) comprehensive review of the rock art of the Prefecture of Larissa presents a substantial corpus consisting almost entirely of cupules, but that's no substitute for reading it because I don't know whether this Australian author thinks of cup and ring marks as a separate phenomenon or is just lumping them in with rock cupules. It's cited there as 600 ‘written rocks’: channels of primeval knowledge. Prehistoric rock art from the Prefecture of Larissa. Publications ‘ella’, Larissa, Greece. Then some random web page belonging to a Shanghai trading company says Stelios Papanikolaou is a great Greek sculpture, a teacher of martial arts and an hierophant. He has also published books in literature and in a research he has done for the paleolithic and neolithic written stones. But where?  Card Zero  (talk) 20:44, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

The artist (who was not himself a sculpture) passed away just over two months ago.^[4][5] The book may have been published in Greek under the title 600 Γραμμένες Πέτρες.^[6]  --Lambiam 22:24, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh! Well found. Edit: now it looks like it might have been published as 555 γραμμένες πέτρες, ISBN 978-960-8439-07-8, 2004. Did he find another 45 rocks the following year and add them to the second edition, or what is this?  Card Zero  (talk) 22:40, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Why is East Austin poorer than West Austin?

I am currently reading the novel, Small Steps, by Louis Sachar. In the novel, Armpit and his family live in East Austin, where a lot of Black people live, while West Austin is a lush green place for treehuggers. I once looked up "Louis Sachar" before on Whitepages.com, and noticed that this guy lives in Austin, Texas? So, he is writing about his hometown (birth place) or current town (current place)? According to Google Earth, I see that West Austin definitely looks very lush and green. Perhaps, that's where all the rich people live while East Austin is where all the poor black folks live? I also did a Google search, and noticed that Austin has long been affected by racial segregation. Is racial segregation the only reason why East Austin is poorer than West Austin? What other factors may contribute to the divide? (Please note that I am not from Texas! I am just curious of the city because that's where the story is set, and I just want background info so I can understand the story better. Thanks.) 24.214.225.199 (talk) 21:33, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

There's a sharp divide due to geology. Quoting from Austin, Texas#Geography, Due to the fact it straddles the Balcones Fault, much of the eastern part of the city is flat, with heavy clay and loam soils, whereas the western part and western suburbs consist of rolling hills on the edge of the Texas Hill Country. This puts areas like the Barton Creek Greenbelt in the west.  Card Zero  (talk) 22:22, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay, so there is a racial divide, and people blame it on racial segregation. They want racial equality/equity. There is also a wealth divide, and people blame it on social class. They want class solidarity and cohesion and cooperation. There is also a geological divide, and well, nobody can blame Mother Nature for that. Are there any efforts by the local government or the people to help the poor blacks on the east side? How does geology affect society? Do rich people tend to live on mountainous or hilly areas, overlooking everything, while poor people tend to live on flat land? Do people from colder climates tend to dominate over or conquer people from tropical climates? Do people have a habit of blaming everything on themselves instead of on Mother Nature that is controlling them, and the people aren't aware that they are being controlled because they want to believe that they have free will/choice? (I am just wondering how much power a person or society have over themselves, or whether everything is controlled by an external force - the forces of Nature.) 24.214.225.199 (talk) 23:13, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I think you are confused a bit. The fact that there are areas with different geological features is (to a degree) a given. But that does not magically makes rich white people collect in one area, and poor black people in a different one. Indeed, it does not even imply rich and poor people, much less that wealth strongly correlates with skin colour. This is just how society has emerged from history - often based on conscious decisions of individual humans and groups of humans. If one part of the town becomes more attractive, it's where the rich and powerful (who can control where they live) will tend to congregate. And if the rich and powerful are also racist assholes (which they often were, and, I'd say, are), they can impose additional restrictions, legal and otherwise, to further strengthen that effect. It's an interesting question if this necessarily is so - a quick look at other societies seems to indicate that the answer is "no", but that the fix is not trivial. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 05:12, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

So, Armpit and his family are poor black folks, living on the east side of Austin. He works for a company and gets hired by the mayor on the west side of Austin. The mayor is an elderly white woman. I like Louis Sachar's realism. He uses race, social class and geology in his novel. We see the interactions between blacks and whites, between poor and rich, and the geography of Austin to some extent. So, it's a pretty realistic book to me. 24.214.225.199 (talk) 12:27, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

The only time a woman was mayor of Austin was Carole Keeton Rylander, quite some time ago (though she was in her 40s). If "East Austin" is the area east of IH-35, "West Austin" the area west of MoPac, "Central Austin" the area between these two highways, and "South Austin" the area south of the river (regardless of highways), then I'm not sure how politically influential West Austin in that sense was ca. 1980 when Rylander was mayor. You can look at the map File:Austin Wikivoyage districts map.png... -- AnonMoos (talk) 12:58, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

24.214.225.199 -- Part of it was due to the notorious 1928 official city segregation plan, which decreed that black people would not receive any city services unless they lived east of IH-35 (or "East Avenue", as it was known in those pre-Interstate days). "Mexicans" were also somewhat encouraged to locate there. However, you're a little behind the times -- parts of East Austin have been strongly gentrifying in recent years, and Austin is basically the only largish U.S. city where the black population is consistently declining in absolute numbers in the last two censuses. AnonMoos (talk) 01:15, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

P.S. Lots of towns and cities and metro areas in the U.S. traditionally have a highway or street or set of railroad tracks which demarcates a relatively properous area from a less prosperous one, often involving differences in ethnic or racial composition. That's where the expression "on the wrong side of the tracks" comes from... AnonMoos (talk) 01:19, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Anecdotally, at least sometimes it has to do with proximity to the local sewage treatment plant. --<-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 01:54, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this is relevant in Austin, but in the UK the eastern (and northern) sides of large towns tended to be poorer and the western (and southern) parts more affluent because, until the Clean Air Act in the 1950s and the reduction in heavy industry, the prevailing south-westerly winds brought fresh air to the south and west sectors of the towns, and blew the industrial smoke and pollution to the east and north. Property in the eastern parts was therefore much cheaper. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:24, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I believe that is generally the case in the northern hemisphere, where prevailing winds tend to blow from west to east. So, pollution tends to be blown away from areas to the west of the city centre, and towards areas to the east of the city centre. I'm sure this must have been written up in geography textbooks, but it's so long since I studied that I would have no idea where is best to look now for sources to confirm. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:36, 29 May 2022 (UTC) PS: Here's a source. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:39, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

It's not a particular feature of the Northern hemisphere. The Westerlies blow on both hemispheres, roughly between 40° and 60+° of latitude. But most of early industrialisation happened in that zone, and that is where Europeans and North Americans encountered the phenomenon. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:06, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

The 30s are also in the westerlies, though the edges are fuzzy. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:49, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

This is probably more of a coastal Europe thing. The UK is an island in an ocean, so ocean weather instead of local topography is a strong influence on the prevailing winds. In my kind-of-Mediterranean city 1000 km from the Atlantic, the west wind is clean because it passes over mountains and brings rainstorms, while the southeast wind is dry and occasionally dusty (but it is also considered bad in the whole country). Regardless, the rich part of the city is in the north, because the south is flat and prone to temperature inversion. 31.217.4.15 (talk) 19:50, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

That's quite interesting. Geography and the natural environment affect society in a way. From what I hear and see in the mass media, China is becoming richer and richer - from east to west. It used to be that only Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Shenzhen are rich metropoles. Now, they have become even bigger and richer. Other cities in the Chinese heartland have become rich as well. Even the non-Han lands and the ethnic minority dwellers are becoming richer and richer. Then there are anti-China sources that just doubt everything. So, I'm not sure what to believe now. What I do know is that the Chinese language also hints at directions. Mandarin native speakers may say 喝西北风 (literally "drink the northwestern winds") to mean something like "live on air" expression in English. I wonder if that has to do with the natural geography of China - that the northwestern winds are cold, leaving people lacking in food and other basic needs, while the Han-dominant lands used to be what people call "China Proper". "Oh, no. We are going to drink the northwestern winds. We need to do something about it. Do something about it. Get money, or we will starve to death." 24.214.225.199 (talk) 12:02, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

If you want advice, read more and read between the lines (not just in mainstream but especially in alternative/social media) and travel a lot, try to comprehend locals. There's no substitute for what you see for yourself. It's prejudicial to pass judgment on a city based on one book (a fiction book no less). Vis-a-vis China just don't be tempted to try yewei cuisine. 31.217.4.15 (talk) 19:50, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

This article describes the 1928 "Negro District" plan in East Austin, which was cemented a decade later by the Federal policy of "Redlining". Alansplodge (talk) 17:18, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Seasonal boundaries

Are there official or semi-official boundaries for areas that have four Northern Hemisphere seasons, two equatorial seasons, or four Southern Hemisphere seasons – whether reflected in local weather forecasts or any other respects? I'm particularly interested in how this works in Latin America. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

The article Temperate climate may provide some information (and links) of interest, though probably not a direct answer to the question.

I'd be surprised if there were any 'official boundaries' or similar, because (a) Nature is temporally variable (even in the absence of Climate change), and (b) human boundaries like country borders, etc., that are important to us often don't correspond to natural ones. (However, I'm always open to surprises.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.235.54 (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, to be clear, my question isn't about the climate per se but about the semi-arbitrary human categorization of it – e.g. if I went from San Diego to Buenos Aires in April, where the local weather forecasts would stop talking about spring and where would they start talking about autumn. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 08:53, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

In the article I linked above, the first map refers to Köppen climate classification. If you look at that article and its more detailed first map (on which you can click and choose a larger version), then my understanding (and I am not a weather expert) is that, broadly, you won't get the conventional four seasons (eat your heart out, Vivaldi) in the blue areas classified as 'Group A'.

As far as I can tell (and am aware from previous experience – from nature documentaries and from living in both 'blue' and 'green' areas in Eurasia), you would see something approximating the four seasons in all the other Groups, although they might be rather hard to discern in the Group E Polar areas, and in some of the Desert areas of Group B, though not its Tundra areas, so local weather forecasts would presumably refer to SSA&W (in the applicable local languages). However, I'm rather hoping that someone with actual expert knowledge of these matters will come along and offer a more informed analysis. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.235.54 (talk) 12:14, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

In the A part of Florida the yearly temperature cycle isn't hard to notice before the invention of thermometers. It snowed there once (only parts of the area). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:30, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but being able to notice an annual cycle of temperatures is not the same as being able to notice the canonical four seasons, which are characterised by more than just temperature. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.235.54 (talk) 04:34, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

• The first time my partner took me to his homeland Sri Lanka, we were talking about weather one time and all he seemed to mention were the wet and dry seasons. I asked him what the autumn and spring were like. His response, verbatim, was "We don't have that shit here". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:33, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, and you may notice that almost all of Sri Lanka is classified as Köppen Group A. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.235.54 (talk) 04:34, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

When I was travelling in Indonesia, they said they had two seasons: the wet season and the hot season. The wet season was slightly wetter than the hot season, and the hot season was slightly hotter than the wet season, but really you had to be a local to tell the difference. I'm not sure myself what season it was when I was there. Chuntuk (talk) 10:13, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Where did they say this? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:04, 3 June 2022 (UTC)