Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 May 21

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May 21

'American European-American hybrids'

European cars of the 1950s to 1970s with American high-volume series engines have been called, somewhat disrespectfully, hybrids. Examples include Facel Vega, De Tomaso, Jensen Motors and others. An unusual example among the cars called hybrid is the prototype-only AMC AMX III, as it was a car under an American brand with an American-designed body. So to say, it was an "American European-American hybrid", in contrast to those other "European European-American hybrids". Was it the only one - or have there been others? --KnightMove (talk) 11:05, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Would the Merkur XR4Ti qualify? It was an American version of a European-model Ford. It was an American badging of a Ford Sierra, which was ostensibly designed by Ford Europe, but there are clear design commonalities with MOST of the mid-80s American Fords, compare the XR4Ti to cars like the 2nd generation Ford EXP and the third generation Ford Mustang SVO and the XR4ti has essentially the same body design as both of them, and fits neatly between the two. If you looked at the three cars from a distance, you'd confuse them. --Jayron32 12:22, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

I guess American versions of European cars (there are myriads of them) are a bit too far off the definition and the usage of the term 'hybrid'. But anyway this is very interesting in its own right - so thanks. --KnightMove (talk) 12:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Executions in Ancient Rome

Was the execution in ancient Rome by throwing a person from a rock was performed with the sententenced person being naked or not? Does it matter whether the victim is a man or a woman? David (talk) 15:29, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity (and helping others research your question): Are you referring to the Tarpeian Rock? ---Sluzzelin talk 15:39, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

For example, yes. But this was not the only rock that was used for this purpose (although probably the most important one). David (talk) 16:14, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

At least one woman, Tarpeia, was so executed, the rock bears her name. Several men are also named at the Tarpeian Rock article. I can't find any information on their state of dress at the time of their plunge. --Jayron32 16:39, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

In the account by Livy, the (unnamed) daughter of commander Spurius Tarpeius was killed by the Sabine soldiers crushing her to death beneath their shields. Death by hurling became a popular punishment only centuries later.  --Lambiam 08:36, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

MM

In the 16th-century depiction by Beccafumi of the execution of Marcus Manlius by being tossed off the rock, the doomed man is not in an unusual state of undress.  --Lambiam 09:05, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Falling (execution) notes the account of Tiberius having people thrown off a cliff at Capri.

"he used to order that those who had been condemned after long and exquisite tortures be cast headlong into the sea before his eyes, while a band of marines waited below for the bodies and broke their bones with boathooks and oars, to prevent any breath of life from remaining in them". [1]

Their state of [un]dress is not recorded. Alansplodge (talk) 12:06, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

So, I understand that they were not naked. Thank you for your help! David (talk) 19:01, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

I think it might be more accurate to say: "nobody knows!". Alansplodge (talk) 21:07, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

While it is probably true that no one knows for sure, I think we can nevertheless safely assume that if naked execution was the rule, or even common, it would have been mentioned at least once as a salient detail, as it added insult to injury.  --Lambiam 08:03, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Can be, must not be. In ancient Rome (male) nudity was seen as an everyday matter, something like in Japan today. And I seem to remember as having read somewhere that crucified subjects where usually naked. 2003:F5:6F02:C00:3480:EE69:3CE5:7302 (talk) 11:53, 28 May 2021 (UTC) Marco PB

"We communists have a high casualty rate..."

There's a piece of text, allegedly written by a US communist who was breaking up with their romantic partner, which begins

We communists have a high casualty rate. We are the ones who get shot and hung and ridiculed and fired from our jobs and in every other way made as uncomfortable as possible...

I'm trying to find the source. It gets quoted all over the place in sermons like this one seeking to encourage Christians to have the same attitude towards Christianity. No doubt they're mostly copying off one another, but where did the piece originate? Marnanel (talk) 17:20, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

The closest I could pinpoint it, so far, is from a speech Billy Graham gave at the 1957 Urbana conference:

"I have in my hand a letter written by a Communist student at an eastern university after he had gone to Mexico and become a Communist. He wrote to his fiancee, breaking off their engagement. Here is in part what he said. This was given to me by the minister of the Presbyterian Church in Montreat, North Carolina, where I live. Here is what it says:"

Graham then read what the letter said.

See full transcript at sermonindex.net. I don't know, however, whether it qualifies as a reliable source (not saying it doesn't, just don't know). ---Sluzzelin talk 17:49, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

In Newspapers.com (pay site, not comprehensive) the first occurrence of that lengthy quote is reported in the Charlotte News on Feb 17, 1958. It's in a column by Herbert Spaugh, who says Graham gave him the lengthy quote from a guy in Mecklenburg County. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:56, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Hm. Montreat is nowhere near Mecklenburg County, which is the county that Charlotte is in. Montreat is in Buncombe County near Asheville. Sounds like it may be bunkum indeed. Graham did, however, live in both places. --Jayron32 18:06, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know, assuming all of what y'all said is an accurate portrayal of the sources and that none of the sources made any slips, there's still a fairly plausible explanation. A young man from Mecklenburg county who was attending an Eastern university wrote to bis girlfriend in Montreat (she may be there for several reasons, possibly as a student at Montreat College). She then gave the letter to her pastor there, who gave it to Graham.--Khajidha (talk) 19:28, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Note that Graham would have had no real need to mention the origins of the young man when he spoke at the Urbana conference, but Spaugh was writing for a Charlotte paper. Pointing out the local link would be natural.--Khajidha (talk) 19:34, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Maybe the Presbyterian Heritage Center of Montreat can help. I didn't find anything specific to Marnanel's question (but was surprised to see the word "crusade" being used five times in their article on Graham, meant positively. I didn't know his campaigns were named "crusades".) ---Sluzzelin talk

Having grown up in NC, I forget that outsiders weren't as exposed to Graham. I remember seeing and hearing ads for the Billy Graham Crusade as a smallchild.--Khajidha (talk) 23:04, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

We were well aware of Graham in the Midwest. And usage of the term "crusade" has expanded well beyond the original. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:48, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

He got around a bit; he was a household name in the UK too, back in the day. The Billy Graham Greater London Crusade 1966. Alansplodge (talk) 12:16, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I'll admit I must have read it at some point, but only really noticed it now with the Presbyterian Heritage Center's matter-of-fact use of this term. In my present (and unreliable) sense of its meaning, "crusade", in 20th century Christian religious context, just sounded more like how media might describe extremist groups, than what I've gathered Graham was about. (And thank you, Alansplodge! I only knew about his presence in the UK because he appeared in a fictionalized episode of The Crown, played by Paul Sparks). ---Sluzzelin talk 23:35, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

There's not necessarily any negative connotation. See Webster's:[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:48, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Definitely not a useable word in the UK now. Our Muslim compatriots don't view the original Crudades as a good thing. Alansplodge (talk) 10:16, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

On Sunday 16 September 2001, Bush 43 announced "Operation Infinite Justice", vowing to "rid the world of evil-doers" while cautioning: "This crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while."  --Lambiam 13:49, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, many Western Christians are either ignorant of, or ignore events like the Massacre at Ayyadieh. Alansplodge (talk) 21:00, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

It would seem that Crusade and Jihad are cousins. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:22, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Both words certainly carry a great deal of baggage with them. Alansplodge (talk) 11:16, 24 May 2021 (UTC)