Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 September 18

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September 18

Basque Flag with wyvern

Around a 6 weeks ago I used Wikipedia to have a better understanding on Basque Nationalism. (I'm not an activist, I was just looking for information and knowledge) .

Eventually moving from one Wikipedia link to other links, I found a - wiki page - with a particular Basque Flag version: It was the Ikurrina flag with centered in the middle a Wyvern/Dragon (similar to the Dragon on the Welsh flag).

- I don't remember the exactly colour of the Wyvern: It could have been yellow, red, white or blue...

- Also I don't remember exactly the topic of the page: It could have been a Basque town flag, or a Basque political party flag, or an Basque association flag related to the Basque Nationalism.

- Also I don't remember exactly if it was the English Wikipedia or the Italian Wikipedia (I usually swap from a language to the other when I'm looking for information online, but probably I was 90% on the English Wikipedia).

I have spent a lot of hours both yesterday and today on Wikipedia and I'm not able to find again that Wikipedia page. Of course I did also a lot of google searches trying to find it again, but nothing. Also I tryed to search in the multimedia page of Wikipedia with no results.

-- So I'm wondering if you could help me to track that page again, or maybe it has been simply removed from Wikipedia , or it is a not indexed page. I'm really interested in that Flag. Thanks a lot if you can help. 93.45.68.179 (talk) 16:14, 18 September 2017 (UTC)Keld

• Are you certain it was a dragon and not a Arrano beltza? --Jayron32 18:50, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

• yes, I'm sure 100% that it was a Wyvern/Dragon. That's why I was very surprised when I saw it. Maybe it is a non indexed page, that's why I can't find it again in Wikipedia, unless I remember from which page I arrived. Unfortunately I have lost my browser history and so I don't have the link anymore. (And it is not Arrano beltza) 93.45.68.179 (talk) 19:04, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

• Well, if it was the Y Ddraig Goch, perhaps one of these prospective flags on Commons maybe? Some of the designs have green in the Union Jack along with the Welsh Dragon, which has some elements of the Ikurriña, at least accidentally. --Jayron32 19:15, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks a lot for your suggestion. In the category you have just linked, there are some flags with exactly the concept of the Flag that I'm referring too. But none of those flags is linked to the wiki-page I'm looking for.

In the flag that I'm looking for, the background is like the - Union Jack - but with the Basque colours (the Ikurinna), and with the dragon in the middle.(Can't remember thou the colour of the Dragon, maybe it was red or maybe it was yellow).

Also the page must be linked to the Basque portal because I was reading about Basque Nationalism and I remember that finding that flag surprised me a lot. The Wikipage was about either a small town in the basque area, or a (small) nationalist/independentist association (not a "strictly" political association, and not linked to terrorist acts). I can't remember exactly because It was 6 weeks ago, and I read a lot that day, but eventually I have lost my internet history so I can't find it again :(93.45.68.179 (talk) 19:44, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Some one told me the Nazis were socialist.

They sure don't seem to have been socialist to me. I'm in favor of a bit of socialism -a mixed economy of regulated capitalism and medicare and public education. So my friend said that's what the nazis did. What is the actual situation?144.35.45.38 (talk) 18:52, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Simple answer: No, Nazis weren’t socialists. For a somewhat more complicated answer, start with our article on Nazism. Cheers ✦ _hugarheimur 18:56, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

• sorry this is not meant to be a political discussion. please avoid off-topic. thx 93.45.68.179 (talk) 19:05, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

The NAZI name comes from the German Nationalsozialismus, which just means national socialism. Because of the massive genocide they committed against their own people and enemies, the term is now synonymous with extremely violent racism. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 19:43, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

It's actually not that much a stretch, though the effect is dire. The socialists (by which I mean more or less Communists, since we're speaking of the 1920s when people just started distancing themselves from Russia) were often Marxists. The general idea was that the productive working class could do almost anything but was being tricked and exploited by a parasitic upper class, the bourgeoisie. The answer was violent revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat.

In National Socialism, the concept becomes that the productive class is defined not as low earners but as a nation, practically the same thing really, but then not as a nation but as a race, which of course is not but certainly could be presented as such. And the exploiters were not the bourgeoisie any more, but a race. Think of it as a bait and switch where you go from hating "the bankers" to "the Jew bankers" to "the Jews". Then, tragically, you go out and instead of raiding the bank and burning the mortage records you break into some poor Jewish schmuck's little bakery and break all the glass. At that point, of course, you're no longer really in the realm of socialism, except possibly in some fanatic Russian sense of attacking kulaks. Wnt (talk) 22:30, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

For a position along the lines of what your interlocutor was suggesting, but more nuanced than the claim that the Nazis "were" socialist, see The Road to Serfdom by F. A. Hayek. --Trovatore (talk) 22:36, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

• I'd simply refer the OP to Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. The Nazis were definitely socialist, although that took a back seat to their rabid racism and other lunacy as time went on. They had single-payer universal health care, compulsory schooling under state control, 'full employment', and other schemes, such as a requirement that all workers contribute part of their paycheck towards the eventual purchase of a Volkswagon, with the money diverted to rearmament such that few workers ever got their "People's Car".

That's not Marxism, but it is socialism. The fact that some unobtrusive businesses retained nominal autonomy was for show. The Nazis can and did simply seize businesses that they wanted or saw as threats. The problem as alluded to above is equating socialism and Marxism. Marxism was internationalist and class based socialism. Nazism was nationalist and race based socialism. Both were forms of socialism. μηδείς (talk) 23:02, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm not quite convinced by that. From the linked article: "Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production". The Nazis were certainly not democratic, and if "the government owns or supports some businesses or industries" constitutes socialism, that just about every society in history, from Bronze-Age Palace_economys onwards has been socialist - in which case its a pretty meaningless term. I think the most you could say is that the Nazis shared some policies with socialists, and (at least in their early days) used socialist-sounding rhetoric (while simultaneously overtly condemning and attacking actual socialists). Iapetus (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

• See most importantly to answering this question, the concept of the etymological fallacy. The answer varies greatly depending on whether one asks about the word socialism as it was defined in 1920s and 1930s Germany, or whether it is defined as it is in 2010s Anglo-American culture. Both definitions are only slightly compatible, and the OP is likely to have gotten both (and several others as well) above. People use words as they need to to make their point, and don't always reveal (or even know) that they are working from different definitions.--Jayron32 09:58, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Our last discussion on the subject: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 November 24#Why is nazi Germany considered right-wing. 92.8.216.51 (talk) 13:19, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

• Look at the article on Strasserism. Note that there are two Strasser brothers, with different views. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:14, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Events noted as happening on election days

Which events (other than, obviously, elections,) happened on election days and were named after them? For example the 1985 Election Day floods—azuki (talk · contribs · email) 23:32, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't know but 9/11 was primary day in New York City. All polls oppened at 6, the first plane hit 8:45 and it was rescheduled to later that fall. The Democratic primary is in many races tantamount to election and the mayor of 2002-2014 got his start in the rescheduled primary. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:06, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

The Little Tennessee River had an "Election Day Flood" in 1928, the Snoqualmie River had another in 2006, and much of New Jersey yet another in 1977 [1] [2]. Our article on the 1838 Mormon War includes a section on the Gallatin County Election Day Battle. --Antiquary (talk) 09:27, 19 September 2017 (UTC)