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Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 December 4

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December 4

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Whitewings -- street sweepers and duck uniforms

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In parts of the US, people employed as street sweepers used to be called "whitewings", apparently because they wore white duck uniforms. Why duck uniforms? Also, does anyone have any photographs of this uniform? I can't seem to find anything relevant in Google Images. Equinox ◑ 01:00, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[1], [2], [3] and more generally [4] --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:12, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I get the impression that 'duck' is a style of jacket --- our Sailor suit alludes to 'White duck jacket, trousers and vest made up the summer uniform'. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:17, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's the woven fabric, etymologically not related to the bird, see cotton duck. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:19, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, that article lists uses according to the weight of the fabric: "No. 2 (17 oz): hatch paulins, No 3 (16 oz): heavy-duty bags, No. 4 (15 oz): sea bags, No. 5 (14 oz): heavy work clothes...". It's similar to a kind of heavy white denim. Alansplodge (talk) 10:46, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You can still buy classic white duck trousers in the US, although they seem to be aimed more at the Ivy League than street sweepers. Alansplodge (talk) 11:23, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Aqueduct named after which women?

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I'm working on a wikidata project looking at bridges named after women, which has led me to a number of aqueducts bearing women's names (Perhaps the last two are not women's names). The couple I checked did not specify for whom they were neamed. I'd be obliged if anyone could match the aqueduct to a named person - a link to the person's article would help. (or confirm that they're generic female names rather than named for specific women). thanks --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:24, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Most of them are not women's names, but eponymous adjectives taking the feminine form dictated by the feminine noun Aqua. In most cases, the articles you linked give the (male) namesakes, such as Severus Alexander, Appius Claudius Caecus, Claudius, ... ---Sluzzelin talk 02:46, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Bummer. Thanks. --Tagishsimon (talk) 05:47, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Reviewing the individual articles and external sources, there only seem to be one or two that might have been named after women. One is the Aqua Virgo: This page and this page both says it's named after "a girl" who showed people the spring that produced its water. However, this page, on the same site as the last one, also says it might have been "named after a statue of a water goddess... near the source". The other is the Pont d'Aël, whose name I couldn't find anything about the origins of. --76.71.5.45 (talk) 21:12, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Although Aël is the name of the nearby village, according to our article. Alansplodge (talk) 11:32, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Could something named 'Virgo' after a young girl really be said to have been 'named' after her? Virgo (='virgin') refers to her condition of being a child, not to her name. Or am I misunderstanding? Maybe it's just a grey area. Matt Deres (talk) 15:46, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bridges named after women

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I'm working to ensure that Wikidata has data on as many bridges named after women as possible. Right now we're up to 70 or so such bridges according to this query. I am listing, below, bridge names where I'm uncertain as to the women after whom the bridge was named - presuming there is such a women. Any help in identifying the women much appreciated. Please also post details of any bridges not found in the query results, and I'll add them (the display dropdown allows you to turn the map into a table). Eventually I'll put a wikipedia list article together to cover these. thanks --Tagishsimon (talk) 05:47, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No clue from the internet but Saint Barbara "is invoked against... all accidents arising from explosions" so very apt for a gas pipeline bridge. Alansplodge (talk) 17:19, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Deutche Fotothek calls it the Königin-Carola-Brücke or "Queen Carola Bridge", so it seems most likely. Alansplodge (talk) 20:46, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, see British Listed Buildings - Lady Wimborne's Bridge . Alansplodge (talk) 16:32, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"The proximity to the Marian rock gave the name of the new bridge and largely determine its shape". Marian Bridge
But how was the rock named? "Maria" can be a man's name in some European languages. The same comment applies to the other listings with similar forms, unless their actual origin is known. --76.71.5.45 (talk) 21:42, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This 1875 document shows that the bridge predates the modernist sculpture, which must represent the dedication of the bridge. Couldn't find anything to confirm that though (BTW, God usually merits capitalisation in Wikipedia). Alansplodge (talk) 17:13, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Marienthal = Mary's valley, so named after the valley which is named (probably) after the mother of Jesus.Tobyc75 (talk) 20:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, not "Saint Joan" but Sant Joan which is Catalan for "Saint John". Alansplodge (talk) 16:43, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Most likely Dona Maria I of Portugal. "D. Maria" seems to be the accepted Portuguese abbreviation for "Queen Maria". The bridge was probably built a few decades before her reign (nobody really knows) but she was the very first Dona Maria. Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Almost certainly the latter, since it was constructed in 1966. Alansplodge (talk) 10:50, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Or maybe it was after Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 18:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. My opinion is that if it was anybody other than QEII, there would have been some attempt to disambiguate the title. I've had another search of Google hoping to find details of the opening, but no luck. Alansplodge (talk) 20:34, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
One place I didn't see highlighted on the map when running the wikidata query service you linked to are the bridges in Puerto Madero, such as the Puente de la Mujer, the Puente Peatonal Macacha Güemes, bridges named after Cecilia Grierson, Rosario Vera Peñaloza, ... ---Sluzzelin talk 04:15, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for those. I'm running through a spreadsheet of possibilities I culled from wikidata's 16,000ish bridges ... I'm not up to the Ps, but I would not have recognised any of these as named after women ... I'll make sure they get linked to an appropriate named-after value. All suggestions welcome. The report now stands at 62 long, so progress is being made. --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:26, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So to clarify / check: Puente de la Mujer (Women's Bridge) is formally named for E. Rawson de Dellepiane - R. Vera Peñaloza - A. Villaflor - M. Güemes - C. Grierson per [5] - do I have that right? --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:36, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't read it as that specific ... some names of streets in Puerto Madero were changed to be named after famous Argentinian women in the 1990s (see for example this La Nación article), but I couldn't find what prompted that. My impression (mainly from English and Spanish WP articles) is that the Puente de la Mujer merely reflects this rare hommage without being limited to the women who gave the other bridges and streets their name. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:37, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How about the Mary Jane Cain bridge over the Castlereagh River at Coonabarabran, New South Wales?Djbcjk (talk) 04:50, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Djbcjk. I've added it to wikidata - https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q27954391 - can you tell me, is it at 31°16′18″S 149°16′35″E / 31.27161°S 149.27643°E / -31.27161; 149.27643? --Tagishsimon (talk) 05:09, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they are the coordinates for Coona; whether they're the exact coordinates of the bridge I don't know. Photos, etc, of the bridge, year of commissioning, etc, can be found by googling "mary jane cain" + bridge, and biographical data on MJC can be found on her wiki page. Djbcjk (talk) 11:41, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
[Banned user's posting removed]
There's another Queen Elizabeth II Bridge in Belfast, right next to the Queen's Bridge, named after Queen Victoria. In the Republic of Ireland, there's the Mary McAleese Boyne Valley Bridge in County Meath; and the Anna Livia Bridge (named after a fictional woman from Joyce's Dubliners) and the Rosie Hackett Bridge, both in Dublin. --Nicknack009 (talk) 09:40, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There's the Queen Elizabeth Quay Bridge in Perth, although if you're being pedantic, it's named after the quay which is named after the Queen.
Our Victoria Bridge disambiguation page lists 25 bridges around the world which are directly or indirectly named after Queen Victoria.
And there's St. Mary's Covered Bridge in Pennsylvania. Alansplodge (talk) 11:11, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also Queen Anne Bridge in Maryland. North Queen Anne Drive Bridge in Seattle is a bit more indirect.
In Curaçao, there is a Queen Juliana Bridge and a Queen Wilhelmina Bridge, not to mention Queen Emma Bridge which is known as the “Swinging Old Lady”. Alansplodge (talk) 14:54, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Queen Margrethe Bridge is in Denmark. There was a Maria Theresia Bridge (Maria-Theresien-Brücke) in Vienna that was replaced in 1931.
In Scotland there is the Princess Margaret Bridge and the much older and much smaller Queen Mary's Bridge at Rothiemay.Also mention of a Queen Margaret Bridge in North Kelvinside. Alansplodge (talk) 15:43, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Finally, there is a Queens Bridge (Melbourne), probably after Queen Victoria who seems to be the all-time champion bridge patroness. Alansplodge (talk) 15:43, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Bethany Bridge, the USGS topo map shows a Bethany Cemetery near the eastern end of the bridge, which seems to be this place. I assume that the bridge was named for the Bethany Baptist Church that used to be located there (before the construction of the Allatoona Dam) and that the church was named for Bethany (biblical village). No woman involved, apparently. Coincidentally, I just yesterday edited the article Amelia Earhart Memorial Bridge, and I'm curious—did your search hit on that one? Deor (talk) 16:09, 4 December 2016
In France the is a Pont Jeanne-d'Arc at Rouen and another at Melun, and there's Pont Notre-Dame ("Our Lady") in Paris and another in Melun according to List of crossings of the Seine.
In Warsaw there's a Pont Marii Skłodowskiej-Curie (you'd have thought that there'd be one of those in France, but apparently not).
One more: Edith Cavell Bridge in New Zealand. I promise I'll stop now... Alansplodge (talk) 16:18, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Another one in France: there is a fr:Pont Anne-de-Bretagne in Nantes, named after Anne of Brittany. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:50, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks all; some excellent suggestions; I'll add all that are not already in the wikidata report this evening. Deor, yes, Amelia was in the report - it depends on the wikidata item being an instance or subclass of a bridge, and having a 'named after' property which resolves to a human female; both conditions were satisfied in the https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4742251 record. Sleuths, we still have quite a list of unresolved bridge names at the top of this query; just sayin'. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:30, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do only bridges named after actual women count? There is a Venus Bridge [6] in Kobe, Japan named after the mythological Goddess. I suspect one could find other bridges related to mythological figures with a bit of effort, but it is unclear to me if you are interested in those. Dragons flight (talk) 00:10, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ha! Dragons flight promoting articles on mythological subjects. WP:COI much ;). But beyond that, yes, we already have a couple of bridges named for fictional females, and we should be working towards all bridges having an item in wikidata, and that item specifing who or what the bridge is named after. I welcome any suggestions fictional & mythological. Right now the report only deals with human females, but could be tweaked to include all females. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:27, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Category:Bridges named after Queen Victoria needs filling. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:39, 4 December 2016 (UTC).[reply]

Please note that bridges named after women come in 2 flavors:
  1. A bridge whose name is the woman's maiden name (e.g. Bouvier)
  2. A bridge whose name is the woman's married name (e.g. Kennedy)

The latter case is not as interesting as the former when it comes to classifying bridges by the gender of people they were named after because then the bridge is in fact named after a man via his wife. Georgia guy (talk) 23:41, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Don't understand the point you are trying to make. If a bridge is named Hillary Clinton, it's named after the woman called Hillary Clinton. Even if the bridge is simply called Clinton, if the developers have clearly indicated it's named after Hillary Clinton it still makes sense to say it's named after a woman and not bring her husband in to it. Perhaps the developers (or whoever named it) were also thinking of the husband but in the absence of evidence of that, it's best to just go what by whoever named it said.

Given my age and Chinese Malaysian heritage, I've never really personally agreed with the practice of women taking marital names but it's ultimately their choice and once they've done so it becomes their name. It makes no sense to say that calling the bridge by their name always means you're referring to their husband simple because they took their surname from their husband. To give an obvious example, it's fairly unlikely anyone naming something Angela Merkel or even Merkel is thinking of her first husband.

I mean why even limit to the husband? Why not say something named Helen Clark or Clark is named after her father, actually his father, actually.... And this applies to men to. The only thing you have to decide is whether something name Trump is named after the first person to adopt that spelling probably in the 1600s or you should go back further to Drumpf etc. I mean heck, with a number of European naming customs it isn't uncommon for all components of the name to originate from a relative. And many of these originally (although sometimes directly) arise from saints or sometimes other famous people.

Nil Einne (talk) 07:27, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

BTW some women are mostly only well known because of their husband but this doesn't directly relate to their name. For example Rosmah Mansor doesn't share any part of her husband's name. It's possible people may be more likely to name something after a woman mostly only well known because of her husband when she has adopted his surname so it also give connotations of him but that's complicated. In fact your Kennedy example is a good one of this since it shows how it can expand to families since the same could apply to Caroline Kennedy and a number of other male and female Kennedy's who got the name from their father.

Nil Einne (talk) 07:43, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[Banned user's post deleted]
I found during extensive Googling that it's known locally as the "Elizabeth Bridge" as there is a nearby Victoria Bridge at Datchet constructed during Queen Victoria's reign. Note that Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother was never called "Queen Elizabeth" in the UK during her daughter's reign; if there was any shortening, it was to "Queen Mother" not "Queen Elizabeth" for obvious reasons. I was unable to find out who opened it in 1966, but QEII only lives down the road. Alansplodge (talk) 11:18, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Lady's Bridge in Sheffield (named after the Virgin Mary)? Warofdreams talk 00:00, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[banned user's post deleted]

THanks; I've added Sheffield's Lady Bridge. I wonder about Harewood's Lady Bridge - can't immediately find naming info. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:26, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is an Elizabeth Bridge in London behind Victoria Station. 86.176.120.111 (talk) 16:15, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Names of North America

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The other day, I was reading an article about a (probably non-notable) eccentric, who (among his other eccentricities) describes North America as "Atlan, Amexem, Turtle Island, Land of Frogs". We have an article on Turtle Island. Atlan is a dab page, with nothing obvious linking from it, but I think it's safe to assume the name is connected to Atlantis. Amexem redirects to Pangaea, but there's no mention of the word in that article - what is the term's meaning and origin? An explanation in the Pangaea article might be useful, if one can be found. Similarly, is "Land of Frogs" a translation or other rendition of a traditional name for the continent? The other three terms seem fairly legitimate, after all. Tevildo (talk) 10:00, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This may be of interest - https://www.bennettjones.com/Publications/Updates/Alberta_Court_Skewers_Gibberish_Legal_Arguments Wymspen (talk) 13:24, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is indeed the gentleman in question - I was wondering about the origin of his names for the continent. I believe they may be associated with Nation of Islam#Cosmology, but that article doesn't go into details either. Tevildo (talk) 14:28, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The term Amexem seems to first appear in a 1927 book called Circle Seven Koran where it refers to a transatlantic country centred on Moorish Africa and including Africa, Atlantis and the Americas. reference, scroll to page 23. The book was written by an American, born Timothy Drew in 1886, who called himself Noble Drew Ali. [same reference, page 15]. For more, see Moorish Science Temple of America. 184.147.120.192 (talk) 16:55, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! A very interesting reference, although I'm reluctant to make any changes to the Moorish Science page as it seems to be a rather controversial subject. It's probably a better target for the redirect than Pangaea, at least. This forum thread (although rather - er - divergent from conventional views and English orthography) gives us, as well as Amexem, both Atlan and "Land Of Frogs" - I don't suppose there are any more reliable (or at least coherent) sources out there for "Land Of Frogs", by any chance? Tevildo (talk) 22:33, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome! I had no luck with Land of Frogs; there were just too many unrelated hits. Even if you search wikipedia for the phrase you get hits from Australia, South Africa, Mexico... Everyone has frogs! 184.147.120.192 (talk) 00:51, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Arabian 18th-century warrior woman

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The article of Ghaliyya al-Wahhabiyya is intriguing but hard to expand as there does not seem to be much written about her outside of Arabian language sources. Does any one have any information about exactly when the event (her defense of Mecca) took place? The article only say it was in the 18th-century. Also: how come she was able to raise and command an army at all? Thank you--Aciram (talk) 15:25, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By searching for "Ghaliya" instead of "Ghaliyya" (one of those usually annoying Google prompts "Did you mean..."), I found: "A number of incidents ensued (including a Saudi victory under the command of a woman, Ghaliya, at the Battle of Turaba in 1814)..." Ménoret, Pascal. The Saudi Enigma: A History. Zed Books. p. 76. ISBN 978-1842776056. Alansplodge (talk) 17:37, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also: "Initially, Muhammad Ali suffered a series of military failures. In late 1813 and early 1814, his troops were defeated near Turaba and Qunfudha. In the Turaba battle, the Wahhabis were commanded by a woman, named Ghaliya, to whom the Egyptians immediately ascribed the power of casting the evil eye". Vassiliev, Alexei (2000). The History of Saudi Arabia. NYU Press. ISBN 978-0814788097. (Chapter 5).
At least we have a date and location now, but little else. Not mentioned at all in Ottoman–Wahhabi War. Alansplodge (talk) 17:59, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent! Thank you very much. I have added this to the article, I hope you don't mind. The Arab language article does include more information, but it cannot be added when Google translate is so bad. This was no doubt a remarkable incident in several ways, sad that the information is so hard to come by.--Aciram (talk) 22:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're most welcome. Alansplodge (talk) 23:30, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You could try posting the relevant text on the language refdesk, and asking for a translation. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 16:07, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Marie La Pen winning election in France

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Would France quit the EU if she were to win next year's election?Uncle dan is home (talk) 15:53, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Her name is Marine Le Pen. See the section "European Union and globalization" in that article regarding her position on Europe. --Xuxl (talk) 19:50, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:44, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Is it Marine or Marion? The article contradicts itself in its first line. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:06, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it doesn't. She was born "Marion Anne Perrine Le Pen", but goes by "Marine Le Pen". Compare Rock Hudson or John Wayne or Willy Brandt. I've updated the article to more clearly reflect this. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:23, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It did, but doesn't now. Good fix. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:48, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is also a Marion in the family though. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:17, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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