Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 December 11

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December 11

Mandela movie "Long Walk to Freedom" - accuracy?

Maybe its a question for the entertainment desk, but I see it more politics and history. I've just seen a screening of the new movie based on Mandela's biography. It was amazing to see the movie on the very day of his memorial in Soweto. In a final scene in the movie, Mandela addresses the nation on television, just after the Boipatong massacre which happened on 17 June 1992. In the movie, he speaks to those on the ANC side who would have wanted revenge, or escalating violence, and tells them they are wrong, that the only way forward is peace. However, I think that what he said on TV post-Boipatong was that the ANC could no longer tolerate the violence and that the ruling regime had to take responsibility for it. He then called off the negotiations process publicly. This was actually an escalation of the political tensions. I tried last night to find the text or an account of his television address, but didn't manage that. It's quite a re-write of history, if when Mandela actually suspended negotiations and blamed the De Klerk regime...rather the movie has it as Mandela recommitting his own followers to 'peace' as the only option. Can anyone point me to an authoritative source on what Mandela actually said publicly on television just after Boipatong? Also, what does it actually say in the book? (I've loaned out so many copies of that book I never got back, and right now I don't have it...). Thanks if you can help me track it down. Meanwhile, I recommend the movie, especially in these days when we are all thinking about Mandela. It deals particularly well with the complexities of Winnie Mandela, I thought, and the actress who plays her does an excellent job. Viva, Nelson Mandela. Hambe Kahle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.173.50.222 (talk) 09:08, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

The book Long Walk to Freedom says "Four days after the murders, I addressed a crowd of twenty thousand angry ANC supporters and told them I had instructed the ANC secretary-general Cyril Ramaphosa to suspend direct dealings with the government". On the next page, he says "I was initially sympathetic to this group of hardliners [those saying they should abandon negotiations and return to armed struggle], but gradually realised there was no alternative to the process. ... But it was time to cool things down. Mass action in this case was a middle course between armed struggle and negotiations". I see no mention of a television address. --ColinFine (talk) 12:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

These sources also don't mention a TV address but also goes in to more detail about what Mandela said to the crowd [1] [2] and he did blame De Klerk or the ruling regime and that they would not forget what they did edit: and that they were animals not humans, but there's nothing mentioned there about calling for violence. The second also confirms along with [3] that the talks were suspended after the massacre. However these two sources [4] [5] suggests that the suspension was largely a moot point as the talks were at a stalemate. The massacre mobilised anger against the De Klerk and National Party (both in South Africa and internationally) strengthening the ANC case for simple majority rule while damaging the credibility and will of De Klerk and the National Party to hold out for more checks and balances (precisely what the difference between their demands isn't clear, the eventual South African constitution obviously does have resonanbly strong checks and balances).

So while I can't find any evidence of him making a particular speech saying the way forward is peace (edit: to be clear I mean in response to the massacre), and while he did make a speech which could have sparked violence, it does seem he did at some stage decide (if he didn't hold all the time after the massacare) that further negotiation and peace was the way forward as the memoirs suggest (whether or not he ever made a speech saying that), as the evidence suggests conditions were ripe for an escalation violence.

(Incidentally, the sources suggest there's no real evidence of complicity of the De Klerk regime in that specific massacare, despite an initial finding of the TRC. On the other hand, De Klerk likely didn't help his case by deciding to visit the area and the violence resulting from his visit including that coming from the ruling regime including the police firing on protestors.)

P.S. Found which says at some stage after the massacre both him and De Klerk did pledge that further violence would not interrupt the peace talks. [http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=4193 provides some idea, at least from Mandela's public political POV at the time, of what the NP want.

This source [6], despite the perhaps general questionable nature of the source appears okay here, and suggests the speech is from after Chris Hani's assassination. I recall from media reports and read after Mandela's recent death that he definitely did make a speech like that after Chris Hani's death. If I would take a guess, putting the speech after Chris Hani's asssasination didn't fit in well with the movie so they put it after the massacre instead.

Finally, this source [7] (down but I read a cached version) seems to confirm there were calls for arming the population in response to the massacre which Mandela ignored.

Nil Einne (talk) 17:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

P.P.S. I opened [8] but was leaving it for the end because it's scans so I wasn't sure how searchable it is (but it seems to have been OCRed fairly well so searches well) and forgot about it until I was cleaning up. Anyway it mentions perhaps one more key point. In response to the calls for violence he did actually say “As we brace ourselves for what lies ahead, we m ust call for discipline among our ranks. Don’t allow yourselves to be provoked into unplanned violence.” Not exactly a calling for peace but clearly urging caution at least. I'm also reminded by that source of something also mentioned in earlier sources which may be relevant. In response to the suggestions of imposing a state of emergency in response to the massacare, Mandela said he would lead a campaign of disobedience or defiance if implemented, i.e. as with the direct response to the massacre not a explicit call for peace but not suggesting violence either.

Nil Einne (talk) 17:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't know much about the history, but my impression was that the South African government fomented violence between blacks in Operation Marion, in which Zulu forces were trained and ordered to attack the ANC.^[9] (This is a familiar though bloody variation on a theme familiar to Americans from COINTELPRO to the recent prosecutions of hackers working with FBI informant "Sabu". By inducing one group to attack another, they can prosecute the first and attack the second while disclaiming all responsibility) So urging ANC not to counterattack Zulu could be consistent with an understanding that Inkatha was the puppet rather than the master.

Christmas tree

What should I add to the water? I am being told bleach and sugar. No plans to replant; no roots. Kittybrewster ☎ 10:16, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Michigan State University says add nothing. "Others have concocted their own “home remedies” with ingredients such as sugar, aspirin, bleach and 7UP. Research in the state of Washington and North Carolina has shown that your best bet is plain tap water. Some of the home remedies such as bleach and aspirin caused heavy needle loss and should be avoided."

WikiHow further notes that "Water softener water has high levels of sodium in it which will actually shorten the life of the cut tree. If possible, find a faucet in the house that is not "downstream" of the water softener. Otherwise, you can use distilled water or bottled water, but bottled water may also contain traces of sodium (but usually lower than water softener water)." - Cucumber Mike (talk) 11:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Mythbusters tried lots of home remedies. None really did much better than the control; a few of their homebrew ideas had "plausible" results, in the sense that there were technically less needles lost, but there were other bad side effects (the bleach option resulted in lower needle loss, but a droopy, sick tree, for example). In short, nothing really works better than plain old tap water, though plenty of things worked worse. --Jayron32 12:09, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

We used to saw off a slice of the bottom end of the tree to expose fresh wood and theoretically improve the chances of the water being sucked into the tree. Which could also be a myth, for all I know. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:28, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Baseball's tip is a good one. The end of the tree where it was cut down dries and or decomposes from its exposure to oxygen in the air. Cutting off a fresh slice at the bottom exposes living matter, including xylem, that can transport water to the branches and leaves, keeping them alive for longer. I've had good results using just tap water in the base. Bleach is toxic, and trees are not used to drawing carbohydrates from the ground, so adding sugar is of questionable value. Adding sugar is, however, likely to nourish a bloom of algae and bacteria in the water at the base of the tree, which can become stinky over time. Marco polo (talk) 16:21, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You might find [10] / [11] entertaining. Wnt (talk) 17:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

In my family, we always used to buy our trees with (part of) the root system still attached, and repotted it in a big pot. Surely that's the better option over all of these supposed remedies? Do people not do that any more? (haven't bothered with Christmas trees for years since living on my own.) Fgf10 (talk) 08:17, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

We replanted the tree from the year my younger sister died of an arrhythmia at age 20. I personally prefer the use of small live potted trees or artificial ones. I also drive the annual acorn crop to the local woods and release them to fend for themselves rather than go in the garbage. μηδείς (talk) 03:39, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

You have a Christmas oak tree? 163.1.225.65 (talk) 11:52, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Took me a few seconds to see where you got that. No, my point was that I don't like unnecessarily killing living things. So I prefer a live spruce (or an artificial one) for Christmas. I don't have acorns in NYC, but my parents rake up about 40lbs of them at their house each year. They would then put them in the trash whence they'd to the dump. Instead, I take them to a nearby undeveloped area and cast them about. I know that most will still get eaten, but that's fine, it's natural compared to being put in a landfill. μηδείς (talk) 17:58, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I had the same reaction as 163.1.225.65 on the oak tree :-) Nyttend (talk) 00:53, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

It is disgraceful that a gentleman should even have to ask this question, as he should leave it to his man to deal with. That such a question should have to be asked shows how low we have stooped. I shouldn't trust any of the answers given here unless one of them comes from an Australian, on the grounds that they are sufficiently proletarian to give a correct answer. Whilst I am on the subject, be sure to open your Christmas presents, attend church, and address your Christmas dinner wearing a morning coat.

Not only does 'Dave' Cameron OE think it appropriate to lark about at a memorial service, he also does not wear a morning coat at such an event. As an OE, he probably also refers to 'Christmas dinner' as 'Christmas lunch' in a disgusting display of affectation, and disparages the use of the word 'gift', preferring 'present'. Readers should be assured that it is perfectly acceptable to refer to your Christmas dinner as such, at whatever time you choose to have it, and also that 'gift' is an acceptable synonym for 'present'. 86.183.79.28 (talk) 19:22, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Did I hear someone mention a "disgusting display of affectation"? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:20, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

When are the best and worst times of year to start an okcupid profile?

Does the dating pool grow and shrink much? 12.196.0.56 (talk) 23:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

According to this, online dating profiles in general spike around Valentine's Day. I didn't see anything specific to OK Cupid but don't know why they would be any different than other sites in the industry. Dismas|^(talk) 23:44, 11 December 2013 (UTC)