Wikipedia:Peer review/The Cloisters/archive1

The Cloisters

Hoping to get this to FAC in the next few months. I am aware of some gaps, eg around governance, but hope it is largely there overall on coverage. Note the Metropolitan Museum of Art's engagement with Wikipedia has been exemplary, and they were kind enough to release all their image content last year, which has been a delight, and this page now has a significant number of daughter articles. Ceoil (talk) 10:43, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

It's a splendidly humane, informative article of the kind that refreshes one's faith, etc. A critique would be far beyond my abilities. The only tiny detail I stumbled over was the use of "c." to mean "about", which I feel comfortable with for dates but not (for some reason) for numbers of items: so, "She bought c. 1500 heraldic windows" sounds odd, as my ear tries to construct the "c. 1500" as a date. I'd find "about 1500" or "some 1500" easier, but no matter. I made a couple of tiny fixes to grammar and punctuation. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:01, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Good point, c. should only refer to date ranges, and not quantities. Glad you enjoyed the article, its a very special museum. Thanks for the helpful copy edits. Ceoil (talk) 20:21, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

John

Nice article. Quite a few typos/mild grammar errors ("Led" is the past tense of "lead"). Maybe overdoing it with the praise a wee bit; I took out one sentence but you could put it back, or modify it. Image formatting needs a look. Nothing that can't easily pass FAC with a few nips and tucks. --John (talk) 23:58, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

John, I expected that I'd get heat for praise, so dont feel inhibited, remove as you wish, that's why you are paid the big bucks for your time here:) Re images, I am struggling with this, reducing them down more in size and quantity than I would like, but am slow to start another cull. Yes I know, typical VA editor stuff. I see Wehwalt is making in-roads on the grammar errors business. Ceoil (talk) 00:07, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

Here's the first part. Seems very well written so far.

• "its early collection was built by the American sculptor and art dealer George Grey Barnard, later acquired by John D. Rockefeller, Jr. in 1925." I don't like the combination "later" with "in 1925" I might say "... Barnard, which he sold to John D. ..." Incidentally, the body says 1935, which from context sounds more likely.
• "His main income came from sourcing medieval architectural artifact; " I think "artifact" should be plural. Not certain though.

Yes should be artifacts. Ceoil (talk) 01:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• "and did not get on" "and did not get along" sounds more US.

• This is one of the first articles that I've written in USEng; an interesting subtlety that I had not picked up on before. Ceoil (talk) 01:02, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• The two sentences about the renovations feel out of place. I would take them out of the paragraph and perhaps to the end of the last paragraph in the section.
• "the area's history as a revolutionary site" I might say "the area's history in the American Revolution"
• "some contain two registers" suggest a link.

• Yes link added, and also to Ghent Altarpiece, the supreme example of this kind of image stacking. Ceoil (talk) 00:25, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• "The Trie cloister were built " either "cloister was built" or "cloisters were built".
• "the knocking of the former "Special Exhibition Room"." I'm not sure what you mean by "the knocking". If it's knocking down, I might say "the demolition of ..."
• "The new space seeks to emulate a single aisle nave.[68]" This seems to hang off the end of the paragraph, without much connection to what came before.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:02, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• Have removed this fragment altogether. Ceoil (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Wehwalt, have met all of these, except for the bit about the renovations, which is more structural and needs to be pondered for a bit. Thanks muchly. Ceoil (talk) 01:12, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• "some now conformed as identifiable as historical persons" I might cut "now conformed as", or at least "conformed as".
• You seem to me inconsistent in whether you say an artifact "dates" or "dated" from a year.
• "The Met's collection grew in the early 20th century when Raymond Picairn acquired at a time when medieval glass was not highly sought by connoisseurs." I might change "acquired" to "made acquisitions"
• "where domestic rather than religious art predominates, [because] a conscious effort has been made to create fifteenth-century domestic interior similar to the one shown in [Campin]'s Annunciation panel."[100]" I would expect a "a" before "create". You may wish to double-check the source.
• "the early designs phase of the museum's build," two things needed to Yankeefy: take the s off "designs" and change "build" to "construction".

• I looked in The Encyclopedia of New York City in my reference books and saw nothing that needed to be added. They say very little about The Cloisters.

That's about it. Very interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:35, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you very much for these, all of which I agree with and have now been resolved. Ceoil (talk) 00:27, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Comment from Epicgenius

This looks like a great article, and I've been following its improvement for several years now.

• If you're going to take this to FAC, you may want to add sources to these locations:
  • In the "Formation and history" section, the second paragraph is unsourced.

  Added Ceoil (talk) 00:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

  • In "Saint Guilhem", and its plant are potted in containers which include a 15th-century glazed earthenware vase. is unsourced.
  • In "Fuentidueña Chapel", Hanging within the apse is a c. 1150–1200 crucifix from the convent of St. Clara at Astudillo. is unsourced.

  Refed now Ceoil (talk) 01:55, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

  • In "Langon Chapel", and baldly damaged; most have been decapitated. is unsourced.
• The images in "Library and archives" extend into the references section.

  • Resolved Ceoil (talk) 00:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• You might also want to expand on the formation and history sections.

  yes, and working on Ceoil (talk) 13:42, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• It feels like there are too many misplaced commas in some sentences, especially as this article uses {{American English}}. For instance, The chapel consists of a rectangular courtyard with covered walk ways, and beds of flowering shrubs and plants, where the comma would only be needed if you replaced the first "and" with "as well as".

  Article significantly trimmed of commas Ceoil (talk) 13:42, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm not an art expert or FAC veteran, but I am a veteran New Yorker, so I guess you can do as you want with this feedback. epicgenius (talk) 01:22, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Epicgenius, these are all salient. I'm not really an art expert either, more of a keenly interested and well read obsessive, but have noticed you as a voice of reason for several years, and have very much appreciated your input and calming influence in the past. Will work through. I'm not inclined to argue too much with veteran New Yorkers, least I get my head kicked in (!), but anyhow agree with all you points, and its nice to see you here. Ceoil (talk) 01:48, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Comment from Michael Bednarek

The capitals contain representations ... Its piers shoes Martin of Tours on the left ... – "piers shoes" caught my eye. Should it be "Its piers show ..."? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:38, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Eek. Fixed. Ceoil (talk) 01:15, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Comment from Modernist

It's looking good...Modernist (talk) 11:51, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, its a very special place Modernist. Ceoil (talk) 15:30, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

First batch. More to come.

• Lead
  • "They were excavated" – seems the wrong word. The OED has it as meaning hollowing out or digging out leaving a hole. I'm not sure what the right word would be: perhaps "deconstructed" or "dismantled"? Either way "from Europe" should be "in Europe".
  • "Large scale" – wants a hyphen
  • "Medieval European" – capital M wanted?
  • "bronze and early iron ages" – contrariwise I think (and so do the authors of the relevant WP articles) that Bronze Age and Iron Age need capitals.
• Formation and history
  • "sourcing medieval architectural artifact" – should this be plural?
  • "He bought several hundred" – "He" is presumably Rockefeller: we need his name here.
• Exterior
  • There's an awful lot of stuff in the first paragraph that repeats what we've already been told.
  • Collens doesn't need a second blue link.
• Bonnefont
  • "often to decorating public and private buildings" – "often decorating..." or "often to decorate..."?

Second batch a.s.a.p. Tim riley talk 15:26, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Done as far as here Ceoil (talk) 09:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Concluding comments on prose

• Fuentidueña Chapel
  • The capitalisation of Daniel in the lions' den is inconsistent with that in Saint-Guilhem, earlier. And you don't want two links to it, I think.
  • "to The Virgin" – capital T in The looks a bit odd, and isn't used at other mentions.
• Langon Chapel
  • "The Pontault Chapter house consists of a single aisle nave, projecting transepts is taken from" – either needs a "which" or having "consists" replaced with "consisting"
  • "a small parish Benedictine church" – looks rather strange: one expects a different word order – "a small Benedictine parish church"
• Romanesque hall
  • "four large early 13th-century stone sculptures" – I think I'd be inclined to add a hyphen between early and 13th, but others may not agree with me.

More generally, I have two concerns. First I think it would be helpful to the reader to explain near the outset that though G G Barnard was bought out by J D Rockefeller he nevertheless had some sort of official connexion with the museum thereafter. The impression with which the second para of Formation and history left me was at odds with the statement later on that Barnard was buying for the collection as late as 1937. We could do with some dates rather than "eventually". When did Barnard sell his stock to Rockefeller? And what was the former's position in the museum thereafter?

My other concern is the number of duplicate blue links. Within the main text Fort Washington, Charles Collens, garth, wellhead, Trie-sur-Baïse, Saint-Guilhem-le-Désert, buttress, Lleida, apse, Martin of Tours, frescoes, transept, piers, Moutier-Saint-Jean de Réôme, Adoration of the Magi, archivolts, The Hunt of the Unicorn, stained glass, Mérode Altarpiece, and illuminated books are all linked twice or, in the case of frescoes and stained glass, more.

I hope these few points are useful. Tim riley talk 12:39, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Most useful. Working through....Ceoil (talk) 20:15, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Mostly done. Planning an expansion of the formation section, and will then be incorporating your suggestions re the Barnard / Rockefeller sequence / relationship. Thanks so much for this detailed and rewarding review. Ceoil (talk) 16:28, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Comments from Gerda

Thank you for the invitation to visit a beloved place, and thank you for what you wrote about it. I won't look at the lead at this stage, and see how far I get. What do you think of File:2013 The Cloisters from the southeast.jpg for alead image? (less gray, less street)

I hear you, but no chance I'm afraid. As its such a well known landmark, the lead image would need to contain the recognisable from entrance. Ceoil (talk) 11:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Formation ...

• link Barnard in image caption, where many will look first?

  Done Ceoil (talk) 11:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• link Fort Tryon Park again?
• "including the purchased the land"?

  Done Ceoil (talk) 11:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• in "Catalan, Occitan and French origins" - C is linked to a place, O to a language and F not at all. How about "modeled after abbeas in Catalonia, Occitania and France"?

  Yes, Done Ceoil (talk) 11:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• buying land after building: did he buy extra land, later?
• link liturgical

  Done Ceoil (talk) 11:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• "a scenic motorcycle chase" - scenic chase?

  It should be said that it was a motorcycle rather than car chase. I don't really like this pop cul bit anyway. Ceoil (talk) 11:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Exterior ...

• "exterior building"?

  Done Ceoil (talk) 11:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• I made a red ill link to fr:Église Saint-Géraud (Monsempron-Libos) which will not stay red for long.

  <drums fingers with glee> Ceoil (talk) 11:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

• "exterior houses"? - better use a word that is clearly a verb, instead of "houses"

  Jaasus, yes, done. Ceoil (talk) 11:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Interrupted, more probably later today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, as always. These are very good suggestions and catches. Ceoil (talk) 11:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, back, after some real life which included a loooong opera (cut down to 3 1/2 hours of music.

Cuxa

• "monstrous mouths consuming naked human torsos and a mermaid" - is the mermaid consumed, or a comma missing?

Saint-Guilhem

• "including representations of the Presentation at the Temple" - any other word for representation, to avoid repetition?
• "smaller than their original incarnation" - not sure that "incarnation" is the best term here

More to come after sleep. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:54, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Almost through these Gerda. At home dying of flu, and sleeping a lot but irregularly and typing here blearily; responses may be random. Ceoil (talk) 01:59, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about the flu, - best wishes! - Thinking that you'd edit only weekends I turned to other things, but am ready again for spirituality in The Cloisters.

Trie

• laughing: "followed by Abraham sacrificing Isaac and Matthew and John writing their gospels" - sounds like he sacrificed three, while he actually sacrificed an animal ;) - A comma would help, and a link to binding of Isaac even more.

He must have got up early that morning. Sorted Ceoil (talk) 15:59, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Gothic Chapel

• "abbey door" - what's that?
• "Saint Martin of Tours" I thought we say either "St. Martin" or "Martin of Tour"?

Both done Ceoil (talk) 17:03, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Fuentidueña Chapel

• "The chapel was opened to the public in 1961, seven years its transfer and instillation began" - word missing?

Romaesque hall

• Why "hall", not "Hall"? - but "Gothic Chapel"

Need sleep again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:04, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

A few more:

Objects

• "ivory c. 1300 Gothic Madonna ivory statuettes"
• "most well known" - best-known?
• "rare Gothic boxwood miniature sculpture type" - too much of a good thing

All done Ceoil (talk) 17:03, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Stained glass

• "include c. 1265 grisaille panels" hard to tell if this is a year or a number of panels

haha, yes, done Ceoil (talk) 17:03, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Illuminated ...

• I know book titles italic, - is that different for manuscripts?
• "Thus it had been rarely studied or widely appreciated, and was until that point also attributed to Pucelle. Following its acquisition, it was studied by variety of art historians, which a consensus developing to favour the hand of Le Noir." - think about "also", - and perhaps general rephrasing.

The end, - good luck with the next step! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:10, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Will get to these in a few days. Ceoil (talk) 13:26, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Working through. All very good and have significantly improved the article. Ceoil (talk) 16:25, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Comments from KJP1

Ceoil - first off apologies for the long delay in getting to this. Secondly, it's a fine and detailed article on a very interesting museum, of which I'd never heard. Definitely FA material. Comments to follow throughout the day.

Lead

• "The building is constructed on a steep hill and comprises of an upper and lower level" - perhaps, "The building is constructed on a steep hill and comprises upper and lower levels"?
• "They were dismantled in Europe between 1934 and 1939, and rebuilt in a four-acre site in Washington Heights" - to me this sounds like we're talking about another site. But I don't think we are, i.e. the Washington Heights site and the Fort Tryon Park site are one and the same. If they are, could we reword to make this clear?
• "and the c 1495–1505 Flemish The Hunt of the Unicorn tapestries" - "and the c. 1495–1505 Flemish The Hunt of the Unicorn tapestries".
• "The design, layout and ambiance of the building is intended to evoke a sense of the medieval European monastic life" - is the second "the" required?

Formation and history

• "Bernard was mining a tradition that begun with the established by the great monastic orders of widespread abbeys and churches across northern Europe in the twelfth century, but which through centuries of pillaged and burning during centuries of war and revolution, afterwhich they fell into local farmers hands." - this, long, sentence doesn't seem to work. Perhaps something like, "Bernard was following a tradition begun by the great monastic orders whose abbeys and churches established across northern Europe from the twelfth century frequently reused materials from earlier buildings. Following centuries of pillage and destruction during wars and revolutions, stones and fabric from many of these buildings were again reused by local populations"?
• "He claimed to have found the tomb effigy of Jean d'Alluye, face down, in use as a bridge over a small stream" - Tim's your man, but to me this suggests it was Bernard that was "face down"!
• "They incorporates elements from abbeys in Catalan and France" - no "s" and isn't it Catalonia, rather than Catalan?

Collection - Objects

• "Cloisters holds approximately five thousand individual pieces of art, mostly from the 12th to 15th centuries, and all specializing in medieval European works" - don't think the pieces are specializing, they just are. Perhaps - "The Cloisters collection focusses on medieval European works and comprises approximately five thousand individual pieces of art, mostly dating from the 12th to 15th centuries"?
• "and are today hung in the dedicated Unicorn tapestries room on the museum's upper floor".
• "It is well preserved, with little over-painting,"?
• "Some of the objects have storied provenance" - you'll know better than me, but I don't know this phrase. What does it mean?

Collection - Stained glass

• "mostly from the 3rd to early 16th centuries" - really the "3rd" and not a typo for the "13th"? They'd be very early indeed, and outside of the collection's medieval ambit.

Collection - Illuminated manuscripts

• "The Bonne de Luxembourg manuscript had long been in private collections and.. Jean Pucelle" - an "s" on collection and link Pucelle?
• "it was studied by variety of art historians, which a consensus developing to favour the hand of Le Noir" perhaps, "it was studied by a number of art historians, with a consensus developing that favoured the hand of Le Noir"?

Exterior building and gardens

• "The Cloisters were built into a steep hill and thus its rooms".
• "It was mostly designed by Collins, who.. " - Who is this Collins, and is he different from Collens, who's linked in the next sentence?
• "During the periods of invasion gardens would have been.." - any specific invaisons? Perhaps, "During periods of unrest gardens would have been".
• "making it one of the world's most important collections".

Cloisters - Cuxa & Saint-Guilhem

• "Mount Canigou" - you could link Mont Canigou if you were minded, but I think it's probably Mont even if you don't.
• "Rockefeller had initially wanted a high roof and clerestory windows, but was convinced by Breck" - have we previously met Breck? I can't find him so think he may need an introduction.

L*Both done Ceoil (talk) 17:32, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Cloisters - Trie

• "A number of small narrow buttresses added in in New York by the curator Joseph Breck" - Ah, here's Breck, so you need to move the intro. and link earlier. And you've a double "in".
• "and a droll head wearing an unusual and fanciful hat" - ?? "doll"?

• Swapped droll for grotesque Ceoil (talk) 15:21, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Chapels and halls - Gothic Chapel & Fuentidueña Chapel

• "possibly Ermengol IX, the only of their direct line ancestors known to have die in youth" - not sure I understand what this is trying to say. Did they have lots of descendants who lived to ripe old ages?

• Its a child's tomb; will make clearer. Ceoil (talk) 15:21, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

• "Center piece" - is the US centrepiece two words?

Chapels and halls - Langon Chapel

• "The Langon Chapel is situated on the museum's ground level. Its right wall is sourced..."
• "The piers are lined with elaborate and highly detailed rows of statuettes, which are mostly set in niches, and are badly damaged; most have been decapitated".
• "some of which as have been identified as historical persons, including of Eleanor of Aquitaine" - delete "of".

That's it from me. All minor prose stuff. It's a great article and I look forward to seeing it at FAC. Hope your flu's gone. KJP1 (talk) 12:01, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Great thanks for these - working through. Ceoil (talk) 15:21, 24 March 2018 (UTC)