Wikipedia:Peer review/Stonewall riots/archive1

Stonewall riots

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for August 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I rewrote it last week, expanding it considerably with full citations. I would like to take it to GA and FA. I'd like to get the opinions of a range of people, including non-gay and non-American. I welcome your scrutiny. Moni3 (talk) 17:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• Image:Stonewall Inn September 1969.jpg is uploaded locally with a claim to a GNU license. I see no evidence at the hosting site that this has been placed under a free license. Durova^Charge! 19:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

OTRS Ticket#2008080810018509. I usually wait for the admin to add the OTRS ticket. Because I don't know how to. Just got email confirmation a couple hours ago. --Moni3 (talk) 19:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, cool. Nice find, in that case. I've tried a slight levels adjustment and cropped out the white border. Please ping me when the OTRS notice goes up and I'll upload this as an alternate version for your consideration. Best wishes, Durova^Charge! 19:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Willow comments

So, so satisfying. :) Let me think about some suggestions; I'm sure that the following list will grow, gradually. Willow (talk) 21:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• I think the article should provide more background on the history leading up to Stonewall, both in the second paragraph of the lead and in the first section of the Background. A key addition to the lead is to describe not only the legal, but also the repressive medical establishment of the time, e.g., the DSM classification of homosexuality and gender dysphorias, and their medical implications. For illustration, you might consider the case of Alan Turing, whose cryptography work helped save the war but who was driven to suicide at age 41 after being chemically castrated. He was British, but I think the analogy holds. Oh, as an aside, you should be more specific about the castration legal penalty in note 1.

• I think it's excellent to begin your historical introduction just after World War II. Some episodes you might want to mention for more color and vividness: LGBT soldiers' service in WWII, Johnnie Phelps and General Eisenhower in 1946, President Eisenhower's executive order 10450 banning "sexual perverts" from federal employment in 1953; cracks in the wall beginning in the late 50's and early 60's such as this writer and this forerunner, etc. It might be nice to review the prevailing conceptions of LGBT people of that era: security risk because easily blackmailed, emotionally unstable, etc.; maybe a mention of a popular movie or two showing LGBT characters committing suicide, e.g., Ingmar Bergman's Thirst if I remember rightly? Do we have reliable data on the rate of attacks on LGBT people by police and by other people in that era?

YAY! Ok. Points well-taken. I was concerned that both the lead-in and aftermath/legacy sections were too extensive, taking away from the riots themselves, but I'll be more than happy to expand some of this.

Let me ask: Dank55 has been, of course, a wonderful and very helpful copy editor. His suggestion is to remove the section in the Legacy about the APA declassifying homosexuality as a mental disorder, mainly because much of the word by Evelyn Hooker was done before Stonewall. I think it should stay in, perhaps expanded a bit to include Hooker's contributions. Thoughts? (This is taking place on the article talk page, btw.) --Moni3 (talk) 22:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks kindly. And btw, I'm happy with the additional material in the APA section. I was mainly concerned with the impression that Stonewall in particular and activism in general were mainly responsible for changes at the APA. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 17:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Awadewit Wonderful article! It does an excellent job of contextualizing the riots.

• How much searching for images have you done? The images seem a bit thin right now. It would be especially nice to have a good lead image. This site has an excellent collection of images, but I haven't started looking into their copyright status.

• they have become the seminal event marking the gay rights movement in the United States and around the world - marking the beginning of the gay rights movement?

• The last years of the 1960s were very socially contentious, as many social movements were active, including the African American Civil Rights Movement, the Counterculture of the 1960s, and the antiwar demonstrations. - awkward syntax

• The raid was a normal occurrence for gay bars in the 1960s, but police quickly lost control of the situation - seems slightly awkward - perhaps reintroducing the specific raid would help?

• attracting a crowd that was incited to riot - Eh?

• They soon spread across the U.S. and to different countries - Is the "they" the newspapers?

• Combined with the national emphasis on anti-Communism, conditions were created that allowed Senator Joseph McCarthy to conduct hearings to search for Communists in the U.S. government, the U.S. Army, and other government funded agencies and institutions that led to a national paranoia. - awkward syntax and wordy - "conditions were created..."

• hey outlawed the wearing of opposite gender clothes, and universities expelled instructors suspected of being sex offenders - Doesn't "sex offender" mean something different than "homosexual"?

• Most were forced to live a double life, keeping their private lives secret from their professional ones. - private vs. public is the usual split

• In response to this trend, an organization for homosexuals was created named the Mattachine Society, in Los Angeles in 1951. - Why the passive voice?

• One of their first challenges to government repression came in 1953. - referent for "their" is unclear

• The Mattachine Society published a magazine called ONE, Inc., that the Postal Service refused to mail on the grounds that the topic concerned homosexuals in heterosexual marriages and that the magazine was obscene, although the magazine was mailed out in plain brown wrappers. - wordy

• Homophile organizations—as gay groups were called—grew in number and spread to the east coast. - Should East Coast be capitalized?

• The third paragraph of "Homophile activism" isn't focused - the sentences jump from topic and topic.

• The enclave of what a newspaper story referred to as "short haired women and long haired men" developed a distinct subculture of establishments and events through the next two decades - A bit vague - what kind of subculture?

• The advent of Prohibition only promoted gay establishments as drinking alcohol was pushed underground with other immoral behavior. - This sentence suggets homosexuality is immoral - it should suggest that it was thought immoral in the 1920s by a majority of American society.

• A cohort of poets, to be named the Beat poets, had a particular affinity for writing about anarchy, drugs, and hedonistic pleasures. - wordy

• visitors would have to be known by the doorman, or look gay - Are we going to describe what "looking gay" means?

• Because the police were intending to transport the alcohol present at the bar, of which 28 cases of beer and 19 bottles of hard liquor were seized, patrol wagons were required to take the liquor back to the precinct as evidence. - awkward

• The patrol wagons did not arrive with the appearance of the police, so patrons were required to wait in line for about 15 minutes. - wordy

• Those who were not intended to be arrested were released from the front door - awkward

• The sudden opportunity following the Stonewall riots to organize and concentrate on gay rights forced many groups to work together who had very little in common other than their same-sex attraction. - sounds a little odd

• This was illustrated during the 1973 Stonewall rally when, moments after Barbara Gittings was exuberant in praising the diversity of the crowd, radical feminist activist Jean O'Leary protested what she perceived as the mocking of women by transvestites and drag queens in attendance. - What is a radical feminist exactly? I think we have to be very careful in using that phrase.

• During a speech O'Leary was giving claiming that drag queens made fun of women for entertainment value and profit - a tad awkward

• In 1977 there was a Lesbian Pride Rally as an alternative to being forced to share gay men's issues of "the violent, self-destructive world of the gay bars", according to Adrienne Rich. - awkard syntax

• The article focuses on the resulting movements in the US - did Stonewall affect gay/lesbian movements in other countries to any significant degree?

• Is it worth mentioning the Stonewall monument in Christopher Park?

I hope these suggestions are helpful. Awadewit (talk) 16:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

On images - There seem to be 2 images taken during the riots. One taken the first night by UPI (is on the cover of David Carter's Stonewall) and another taken by Fred McDarrah the night of the 29th. I've requested to use the McDarrah image from the company that currently owns the copyright, and I've left a message on Elcobbola's talk page to assist me with advice on how to use either of the images. Craig Rodwell took some images according to my sources, but I can't find any. He has images at the New York Public Library digital collections, but none of the riots. Kay Lahusen has images of Gay Liberation Day of 1970, and I'm already using 2 of hers from NYPL in Barbara Gittings' article. I can ask to see if they would give me permission to use another. I just loaded an image of Lahusen marching in the Annual Reminder, perhaps in 1969. It's in her article, so I may use that one. --Moni3 (talk) 17:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Copy edits: I think I've addressed most of your concerns here. On "looking gay"...this is probably one of those instances that I should quote from an author directly if I can find an explanation of what looking gay is.

The only other issue I had was the sentence about Jean O'Leary's speech. I added a comma, not sure what else to change. Surely the answer can't be that simple, but I don't know what else to do to that sentence.

Thanks for the copy edit and the advice, Awadewit. Hope you enjoyed the article. --Moni3 (talk) 17:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments Just a few from me, I agree this is well done and fascinating. Kudos on yet another job very well done.

• The image with the caption Christopher Park, where many of the demonstrators met after the first night of rioting, to talk about what had happened says on its page that it is actually of Sheridan Square. If this is really Christopher Park, the Commons page description should be changed.
  • I read the description of Christopher Park linked on the Commons image page - the four white figures are clearly visible, would it make sense to mention the Gay Liberation Monument? The new lead image is great. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 00:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
• I am straight and had heard the Judy Garland story in association with the causes of the riot - I think perhaps there should be at least a sentence debunking this in the article itself, not just the note (which is fine, but I suspect many do not read notes). The note could then follow the new sentence.
• That said, I read the notes and this in note 1 is awkward In 1961 the penalty for sodomy was between a light fine and life in prison, or castration. perhaps In 1961 the penalty for sodomy could range from a light fine to life in prison, or castration.?

Hope this helps, agree with Awadewit's points, especially think a photo of the riot itself could easily be justified by Fair Use. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 21:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Ealdgyth (talk · contribs)

• You said you wanted to know what to work on before taking to FAC, so I looked at the sourcing and referencing with that in mind. I reviewed the article's sources as I would at FAC. The sourcing looks good.

Hope this helps. Please note that I don't watchlist Peer Reviews I've done. If you have a question about something, you'll have to drop a note on my talk page to get my attention. (My watchlist is already WAY too long, adding peer reviews would make things much worse.) 23:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)