Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Crusader states/1

Crusader states

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Delisted Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:02, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I emphasize that I have not thoroughly reviewed the article. I only quickly read it and found the following issues:

GA criteria 1b. ("it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation"):

• The first sentence of the article is not verified in the main text. (Actually, it contradicts the main text, which says that the crusader states were established as a consequence of the First Crusade).

• I am really happy that the fourth attempt to fix the principal problem in the text was successful. The previous three attempts ([1], [2], [3]) prove that the article needs attention from an expert who do not need external assistance to write of the topic. Borsoka (talk) 00:29, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:29, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

GA criteria 3a. ("it addresses the main aspects of the topic"):

• The article does not mention the Seljuk conquest of Anatolia and the Near East, which gave rise to the Byzantines' demand for Western European mercenary forces and established the conditions of the quick conquest of the Outremer by the crusaders. [Asbridge (2012), pp. 21–22; Housley (2006), pp. 36–37]

 Done—raised further issues below Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

• In the meantime, an attempt was made to include the Seljuk conquest ([4]). The attempt shows that the article needs attention from an expert who do not need external assistance to write of the topic. Now, about half of the section Background is dedicated to the Turks. Yes, the Turks were important actors, because 1. their conquest of Anatolia/Asia Minor forced Alexios I to ask for Western mercenaries and 2. their arrival contributed to the total fragmentation of the Muslim world, enabling the relatively easy conquest of Syria and Palestina by the crusaders. The new text provides extensive information about the Turks, with little connection to the Outremer, but the principal consequences of the arrival of the Turks in the context are not emphasized for readers. Borsoka (talk) 01:15, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

It was good call on your behalf on the lack of content on the Seljuks. In fact it should have gone further to differentiate between the polities of the Great Seljuk Empire and the Sultanate of Rum. Also missing was the other Turkic groups that had an impact on the Outremer such as the Danishmendids, the Mamluk Sultanate (Cairo) and Mamluks in general. Hopefully this gap in the article is now filled. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:56, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

• The problem is that the information on the Turks now dominates the Background section, but it does not make clear what was their role in the establishment and development of the crusader states. We can read unnecessary information about the waves of Turkish migrations, about the names of Turkish dynasties with no connection with the crusades, but we are not informed, for instance, about the important institution of atabeg (a Seljuk tradition contributing the disintegration of the Seljuk empire and enabling the crusades to dominate the political life of Syria and Palestine for decades). Furthermore, the Background section does not mentions the Armenians, the Ismaelites, the Italian merchants cities. The expansion of the Background section did not solve the previously mentioned problems either, but it created a new one: WP:DUE. Borsoka (talk) 16:13, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done Armenians, Ishmaelites, Italians, and cities all added. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Not done. The term "Armenian" is mentioned several times, but they are not introduced in context. While we are informed about the multiple waves of Turkish migrations, we are not informed about the Armenians' arrival, although alliance with the Armenians was at least as important in the formation of the crusader states, than the fragmentary nature of the Turkish states. There are also random references to Armenian warlords - do you really think this is a proper background? The University of Wisconsin Press's classical 6-volumed monography of the crusades dedicates whole sections to the Ismaelites and the Italian city states. Do you really think a "Background" dominated by irrelevant pieces of information on the Turks, but with almost no reference to the Armenians, Italian merchant communities and Ismaelites is fully in line with WP:DUE? Borsoka (talk) 08:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

There were more causes for the First Crusade than the invasions of Anatolia. Once underway the crusade the pilgrimage to Jerusalem beacme the primary objective. This brought the Crusaders into contact with other Turkish groups that should be explained. Indeed, after 1099 Anatolia was a minor intersect with the Crusader States Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Do you know anybody who have whenever challenged the above statement? Borsoka (talk) 08:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

There was a paragraph on this, I have moved to make more obvious to you. I don'y think you read all the changes. The history of the Christian kingdom of Lesser Armenia followed a similar pattern to the crusader states. Located to the north-west of Syria it was established on former Muslim territory that had been retaken, in this case by the Byzantines in the 10th century. It was populated with immigrant Armenians from between Lake Van and the Caucasus. When the Byzantine frontier collapsed after the battle at Manzikert in 1071 they dominated Cilicia and territory reaching east to the Euphrates. During the first crusade they gave support and assistance to the crusaders. After a long contest for supremacy between two families, the Rubenids and the Hethumids Leo I, King of Armenia was crowned the kingdom was formally established. The two families intermarried with each other and then with that of Antioch. The kingdom submitted to the Mongols in the 13th century before finally succumbing to the Egyptian Mamluks in 1375. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:36, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

You seemed to have also missed this paragraph on the maritime republics. One Frankish weakness was the lack of sea-power. This was addressed by the purchase of naval resources from the Italian maritime republics of Pisa, Venice and Genoa. These republics were enthuisastic crusaders from the early 11th century whose commercial wealth secured the finacial base of the Franks. In return these cities, and others such as Amalfi, Barcelona and Marseilles, received commericial rights and access to Eastern markets. Over time this developed into colonial communities with property and jurisdictionial rights. I have moved it to make it more obvious. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:15, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

And this on the Ishmaelites Ismāʿīlist branch of Shia Islam of which the Fatamids were members. A group that had been founded by the Persian missionary Hassan-i Sabbah broke away and founded the Nizari Ismaili state in Alamut, Iran. This organisation known as the New Preaching also developed in Syria became known in western historiography as the Order of Assassins. They used targeted murder to compensate for their lack of military power. Nizam al-Mulk was their first victim. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:15, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done—as per above. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:15, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

WP:DUE: lengthy sentences about the Turks with almost no relevance vs. sporadic info on the Ismailites. Borsoka (talk) 09:56, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• The article almost makes no mention of women and if a woman is mentioned, she is a queen.

 Done paragraph added Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Not done. Do you really think about two sentences is enough to describe the life of about 50% of the population? Borsoka (talk) 08:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Again we must agree to disagree. As Tyerman notes Gender Studies in the Crusades is a realtive new area of research, more a question for Historiography. There are no authoritive works and this is also picked up in the body of the article so no need for specificity e.g. woman were governed in the same way, were part of the same economy, religions etc, lived in the same demography. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:28, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

There are at least two specialized works on women's role in the crusader states. Hodgson's Women, Drusading and the Holy Land in Historical Narrative and the Gendering the Crusades by Edgington and Lambert. Do you really think that women can be ignored? Borsoka (talk) 09:56, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• The article does not describe the commoners' everyday life in the Outremer. Where did they live? What did they produce and eat? What did they pay for their lords? How did they resist?

 Not done not convinced this is pertinent Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Do you really think that a country, a region, a town can be properly presented without mentioning the everyday life of common people? We are not here to write romantic novels about knights, kings, fair ladies, and castles to teenage boys, but we are here to provide a full picture of crusader societies. Borsoka (talk) 08:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

We will have to agree to disagree in the absence of a third opinion. It is covered in appropriate detail without giving it undue weight. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• The article does not write of the international relations of the Crusader states.

What is actually meant by this? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

• You can read plenty of specialized literature about the relationship between the crusader states and their neighbors (Byzantines, Muslims, Armenians, Italians). Borsoka (talk)

I assume this means there is nothing specifically missing. Venice is mentioned 3 times, Genoa 3, Amalfi twice, the Byzantines 33 times, Aremnians 16, Maritime republics twice, Italians 27 times, Turks 17 times, Arabs 15 times and Muslims 32 times. It is not accurate to say the article does not include details on relations. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• The article does not write of the differences between the Crusader States.

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I am not sure why do you think it is done. Borsoka (talk) 08:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

A number of paragraphs were added in the new Foundation section. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• The results of archaeological researches are not mentioned, although archaeology is an important source of everyday life in the Outremer.

 Not done what value would this add?

• You are ignoring the results of a well established branch of science. Read Jotischky's remarks about the importance of archaeological research in developing views about crusader societies. [Jotischky (2017), pp. 18, 161]

GA criteria 3b. ("it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail"):

• The article contains lengthy text about the history of the Knights Hospitaller after the fall of the Outremer.

Trimmed this and moved to legacy where it probably warrants a mention? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:43, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

• The last edit indeed improved the article. Thank you for it. However, the section still suggests that the Hospitallers were the first military order, and we are informed about the principal reason of the formation of the military orders in the third paragraph. Sorry, I must say that an article needs to be close to meet GA criteria before its nomination, because a GA review or a GA reassessment process is not destined to write an article. This article does not meet GA criteria and significant work is needed to improve it. Please also use the "Preview" bottom before saving your edits. Borsoka (talk) 03:18, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. The section is in chronological sequence, so as the the Hospitiliers were active from the 1080smand the Templars commenced after the First Crusade this is correct. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:48, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

I know that the Hospitallers were active from the 1080s, but it was not a military order - it only transformed into a military order after the establishment of the Knights Templar, adopting their example. If you write of the military orders and want to follow a chronological order, you should begin the text with the Templars. Borsoka (talk) 09:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

On the matter of the article's GA status, I fundamentally disagree. This article only recently went through a GAR and passed. On that basis the majority view is the article meets the GA criteria. You don't agree, which is fine, but that is not consensus. I am taking your suggestions in good faith as they do allow the article to improve but that does not mean I agree with your evaluation, because I don't. You have written yourself that you don't want to review in this topic area at present, I suggest this reassessment withdrawn, we wait until the move debate is resolved, I take time to reconsider your feedback, update the article and then if you still believe it is not at GA standard we resubmit for reassessment or even to get the expert view you believe the article needs submit for a Milhist A class review. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:48, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

As my brief comments show for weeks, the article did not (and does not) meet major GA criteria. For the article should have been completed before its GAN, I cannot withdraw the reassessment process. Borsoka (talk) 09:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Chronological order changed as suggested Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:44, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I think this version is much better. I tried to fix your typos - I suggest you should read the text again because even a non-native speaker could easily find 5-6 typos in your relatively short text. I also added some templates to sign where you obviously misinterpreted your sources or failed to explain the relevance of the sentence. ([5]) If all problems are addressed, I think we can conclude that this section reached the level of an average GA. I would consider deleting the Latin names of the two orders, because 1. this is the English version of WP and only people who do not have chance to regularly meet Latin terms think that their use is elegant; 2. the Latin names of the two other military orders are not mentioned in the article. Borsoka (talk) 13:12, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:18, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Not done. We should make it clear what happened at the Council of Troyes. (I know that Asbridge says that the Templars were recognized by the Latin Church at the council, but actually the order's recognition was a lengthy procedure: first the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem recognized the order in 1120, next a synod of the French Church sanctioned their rule and finally the pope granted them privileges.) I fixed some more typos. I also tried to clarify that not only the common name, but the names of the Knights Templares derived from the association of the Al Aksa with Solomon's Temple. ([6])

 Done—added rule, and now using TyermanNorfolkbigfish (talk) 07:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Not done. Sorry, I must say you still do not understand what happened when. Borsoka (talk) 08:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Well perhaps we have to agree to disagree. The article matches two different respected sources (Asbridge & Tyerman), it is only your pedantry that disagrees Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:57, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

GA criteria 4. (it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each):

• The article contains the following text: "The barons of Jerusalem in the 13th century have been poorly regarded by both contemporary and modern commentators: James of Vitry was disgusted by their superficial rhetoric; the historian Jonathan Riley-Smith writes of their pedantry and the use of spurious legal justification for political action." Jotischky (who is cited in the article) on the subject: "The barons of the kingdom of Jerusalem in the thirteenth century have not, on the whole, had much sympathy from historians. ... It is tempting to view them as argumentative and lacking the breadth of vision to suspend their constitutional jealousies for the greater good of the kingdom. ... But it was this very quality of legal expertise and the ability to plead a case in court that the barons themselves prized. Ralph of Tiberias, for example, became a heroic figure among the thirteenth-century baronage for the constitutional grasp he showed in his resistance to Almeric II in 1198."

Not really sure of the point here? By Ralph, I assume that Jotischky is referring to Raoul of Saint Omer. A relatively minor figure that many sources do not even mention. His story rather illustrates the point made in the article. He made his case, the king rejected it and he was exiled anyway. If he was a legal hero it didn't do him any good. Adding this wouldn't really inform the lay reader of anything, in fact he would distract from the argument that Riley-Smith made that Jotischky was referring to. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:41, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the article is mainly based on books about the crusades not on books about the crusader states, so the sources of the article concentrate on the military actions, not on the principal characteristics of the crusader states. Please read Riley-Smith's following remarks about Raoul of Saint Omer (whom you describe as "a relatively minor figure"): "...a man every bit as remarkable as [King Aimery of Cyprus and Jerusalem] ... Ralph, Lord of Tiberias ... evolved a method of defending himself in which the main themes of the later interpretation of the Assise sur la ligece can already be discerned: the argument that the law underlined the absolute necessity for a judgement in court in a case concerning the relationship between a lord and his vassal" (Riley-Smith, Jonathan (1973). The Feudal Nobility and the Kingdom of Jerusalem, 1174-1277. Macmillan. pp. 156–157. ISBN 9781349154982.) Your above remark shows that you did not understand my principal concern. The problem is that the article does not presents PoVs neutrally. Have you whenever read the adjective "spurious" in connection with the demand to be judged by peers? Borsoka (talk) 03:22, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen spurious used, and so have you, on the same page of Jotischky as you quote above. He refers to terminology, the article uses justification, the meaning I think is the same. The article doesn't conflate this with the principle of judgement by peers at all, it has just one sentence on the barons reputation and behaviour summarised by a reputable historian and based on the same source as yourself—Riley-Smith's The Feudal Nobility and the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:34, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

No, none of the sources cited use the term in connection with Ralph's claim to be judged by peers. You picked up the negative statements about 13th-century barons from Jotischky's book ignoring the context: the monarchs' arbitrary actions. Borsoka (talk) 08:49, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Neither does the article, you have made this conflation. The context is fine, Jotischky is using the Ralph example to make a totally different point, that the Barons valued legal sophistry. Nowhere is judgement by peers mentioned, you raised this. What is mentioned in this single sentence is attributed comments, both modern and contemporary, on the behaviours and actions of the Barons, used in context and cited to reputable sources.Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:01, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

1. Would you please address my point? The article is not neutral and it does not properly summarize Jotischky's allegedly cited sentence: he summarizes both negative and positive views of the barons, but you only picked the negative remarks from his text. 2. He explicitly refers to Ralph. I tried to explain to you why this reference is relevant quoting Riley-Smith (who is mentioned in Jotischky's text): Ralph was the hero of the barons' because of his resistance to King Aimery's arbitrary action and his insistance on trial by peers. 3. If we want to provide a fair and neutral picture of the barons of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, we cannot insist on repeating the views of a 13th-century jurist and Riley-Smith of 13th-century barons, because the Kingdom of Jerusalem had existed already in the 12th century. 4. Furthermore, if we want to provide a full picture, we should present the movements of the Jerusalemite barons against their monarchs in a wider context: similar movements existed in 13th-century southern France, England, Hungary, Aragon. An encyclopedia cannot be built on texts randomly picked up from here and there. Borsoka (talk) 13:12, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

I refer you to my previous reply and suggest you read the paragraph in its entirety (I have added a sentence to say the barons themselves valued legal expertise. Magnates—such as Raynald of Châtillon, Lord of Oultrejordain, and Raymond III, Count of Tripoli, Prince of Galilee—often acted as autonomous rulers. Royal powers were abrogated and effectively governance was undertaken within the feudatories. What central control remained was exercised at the Haute Cour—High Court, in English. Only the 13th century jurists of Jerusalem used this term, curia regis was more common in Europe. These were meetings between the king and his tenants in chief. Over time the duty of the vassal to give counsel developed into a privilege and ultimately the legitimacy of the monarch depended on the agreement of the court. The barons of Jerusalem in the 13th century have been poorly regarded by both contemporary and modern commentators: James of Vitry was disgusted by their superficial rhetoric; the historian Jonathan Riley-Smith writes of their pedantry and the use of spurious legal justification for political action. Although the Baron's themselves highly valued the ability to make a legal case. You would be hard put to find any reputable historian who believes the Barons behaviour was admirable. Their love of the law and the work of the jurists is respected but that is not what is referred to here. Jotischky uses Raplh as one example, many sources do not mention him at all (e.g. Prawar in his 500 page+ work on the kingdom). This puts his importance into perspective. Furthermore this paragraph is about the Barons in the second kingdom, that is 13th century barons. Lastly as Prawar puts it, governance in Jersulem went on a journey in the opposite direction to France & England who created a centralised bureaucracy that controlled the barons. Whereas in Jerusalem centralised control decayed. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

1. James Clark Holt, in his monography dedicated to the Magna Carta, emphasizes that the idea that the great vassals cannot be deprived of their fiefs without their peers' judgement spread in Europe-and also in Jerusalem in the 11th-12th centuries; he also writes that the great vassals' right to withdraw their support from arbitrary monarchs was enacted in several countries in Europe-and also in Jerusalem-in the 13th century. This is a quite obvious reference to parallel development in Jerusalem and Europe. However, this is not mentioned in the article. [Holt, James Clark (2003) [1992]. Magna Carta. Cambridge University Press. pp. 76–80. ISBN 0-521-27778-7.] 2. Yes, I know you believe that Germany was centralized during Emperor Frederick II's reign, se decentralization of the Jerusalemite monarchy is unprecedented in 13th-century Europe. Sorry, I do not want to comment your belief. 3. Please read literature proving that the empoverished Jerusalemite barons were relatively weak against the monarchs (Steven Tibble [7], Gury Perry [8]). Borsoka (talk) 09:14, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I think we may be debating at cross purposes here, let me try and help. Firstly, in the 12th century it remained lawful for the king to conficate fiefs. Prawar writes An Assize that probably goes back to the time of Baldwin III (1143-62) who hardly made innovations in this field, assured the king the right to confiscate fiefs from his great tenants-in-chiefs without trial for a variety of reasons. (p 105) Whether this continued into the 13th century is rather a mute point as Frederick's Italian army and a 15 year civil war, the War of the Lombards, the battle of La Forbie and the rapid decline of the kingdom made this largely academic. Very much in the way that although Magna Carta paved the way for Anglo common law it was quickly repudiated and English monarchs at the very least were able to deal harshly with their Barons for several more centuries. Futhermore Prawar also comments Compared with contemporary developments, the position of the Crown seems to have followed a course in the opposite direction. So opposite, not parallel. He goes on The kings of Jerusalem possessed far more power in theory and practice. Conversely, by the middle of the thirteenth century, when Western Europe was dominated by powerful rulers as Frederick II, St Louis and Edward I the Crown of Jerusalem was but a shadow.(p103-104) He further expands this argument Starting from similar conditions, during the twelth century European courts had developed a machinary that could be adapted to the centralising tendencies of the crown......This did not happen in the Latin kingdom. The centralised machinary fossilised [around 1125]....At the end of the First Kingdom (1187) this machinary was already anachronistic and during the Second Kingdom it proved completely obsolete. {p112). So what happened instead. Just after the middle of the twelth century the nobility, or more exactlt the great magnates, became the dominant element in the government of the country.....the main functions of government were thus exercised within feudal subdivisions...this left little scope for the development of a central administration.(p113) As Prawar writes the Haute Cour never became a parliament but was a meeting place for the different power factors in society, The jurists argued that The competences of the Haute Cour not merely included the right to sit in judgement over the king's vassals, but over the king himself but this is the theory of pure feudalism not a new legal innovation. Furthermore, In reality, we find no such instance in the kingdom's history .(p120) This pretty much reflects what the article contains, and supports Riley-Smith's evaluation of the 13th century Baraons. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:43, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I try to be as simple as I can, because you obviously do not understand my concerns. 1. We cannot summarize with a sentence from a book about the 13th-century barons the development of the complex relationship between Crown and barons from 1100 to 1291. 2. We cannot present Prawer's view about the High Court as a fact describing the 200-year-long constitutional history of Jerusalem. 3. We cannot assume that whenever a scholar mentions Frederick II, he or she refers to Germany, because Frederick II was the monarch of mutiple kingdoms (including the centralized Regno in Southern Italy). Borsoka (talk) 12:57, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate you being simple. Firstly, it is not one sentence but two paragraphs that cover this topic. I think you should read the article again. Prawar is possible the leading 20th century expert on the subject. You are mistaken on the source it is Jotischky. Again you are conflating what is written about Frederick with Germany, nowhere in the article is this connection made (or in fact would be made, the topic is the machinary of government. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:17, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I read the article. I did not change my mind: the article does not present the development of the political life of the crusader states neutrally and in context; the article's reference to a strong Frederick ruling Germany as a contrast to the Jerusalemite barons' fractionalism is hilarious. Sorry, I stop discussing this issue. Let other editors decide whether this is a GA. I think the issue is clear, the article has not been significantly improved. Borsoka (talk) 13:46, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

 DoneI have tweaked the comment on Frederick to clarify the article was referring administrative bureaucracy and link it closer to Prawer. I think the confusion arrises from the difference between Frederick's German territories and his Italian, particularly Sicily. It is worth noting that the article never mentioned Germany in this regard, that is your assumption. On that basis this is  Done. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:13, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your time and attention. I agree it is better for other editors to decide whether this article remains at GA. It had passed GAR only a few weeks ago and your attention has improved it further, so it is reasonable to believe it is a GA. The name debate has yet to conclude, when it does the article could still do with further improvement. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:46, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I again emphasize that the above findings are results of a quick review. Borsoka (talk) 03:46, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• You make some reasonable points Borsoka. You are a well read Wikipedian, it would be more Wikipedian to use that knowledge to improve the article rather than use it for a reasessment that no one has asked for maybe? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:17, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Sorry, I do not understand your above remark. The article should have been completed before its GAN. You may remember I spent more than a month reviewing an article about the crusades in December and January. It was also edited by you, it contained almost identical errors. For the time being, I do not want to review articles about the crusades. Borsoka (talk) 09:35, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi Borsoka. Just on your last comment, I am missing your point. The quote you give seems to reinforce the wording of the article rather than contradict it. Maybe something from this could be worked into the article, but I don't see that it is an unfair viewpoint. Lawyers have always been self congratulational and widely disliked. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:34, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your remark. Yes, the article presents the PoV of the 13th-century barons' opponents and of some modern historians. However, as Jotischky emphasizes, this approach ignores the barons' own position: they were convinced that a monarch could not seize their property or expel them from the country arbitrarily, that is without a judgement by their peers. I think this is a quite familiar concept to most of us. Jotischky refers to this when writing of Ralph of Tiberias. Borsoka (talk) 11:08, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Ironically, the example of Ralph rather proves the point of what was written in the article. Ralph requested judgement by his peers, Aimery refused and Ralph was exiled for the rest of the reign. The nobles may have grumbled and withdrawn their feudal service, which at this point was nugatory but the outcome remained the same. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 18:24, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Which part of your above summary is reflected in the following sentence quoted above: "The barons of Jerusalem in the 13th century have been poorly regarded by both contemporary and modern commentators: James of Vitry was disgusted by their superficial rhetoric; the historian Jonathan Riley-Smith writes of their pedantry and the use of spurious legal justification for political action"? I am not a native speaker of English, but I have never read the adjective "spurious" in connection with a claim to be judged by peers. Borsoka (talk) 00:18, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

@Norfolkbigfish:, I kindly ask you to decide which book do you cite. Holt's allegedly cited work was first published in 2004. Borsoka (talk) 09:35, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

• Borsoka—The Age Of The Crusades-The Near East from the eleventh century to 1517 by P.M. Holt, published by Longman in 1986 ISBN 0-049302-1 according to the publishing details. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
• https://www.bookdepository.com/Age-Crusades-P-M-Holt/9780582493025 Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:29, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunatelly, you did not read the titles in the bibliography before the article's GAN ([9]). Borsoka (talk) 11:04, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done well it is all resolved now, thank you Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:31, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

• If the tags atop the article cannot be quickly resolved, then it should be delisted. Srnec (talk) 23:45, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Srnec This needs some kind of dispute resolution or third party view. It has only just passed GA. The tags were added by one editor, who has then initiated a community reassessment himself and then wrote he doesn't have time to review. I would remove the tags as unwarranted, but I am reluctant to do this without consensus. I have suggested the this review is stopped until the community decide what the article is actually called (in the ongoing move debate), any required improvements are made and then if it is still required it is brought back for reassessment then. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Gog the Mild, Iazyges—You took this through a CE and the first GAR respectively. Do you have a view on this, please? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:09, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

If a user initiates a community review by themselves, that review usually dies when they stop posting; I'm not necessarily saying we should close this now, but good odds that it will go without much activity and eventually be closed. I don't think any of the issues truly required the tagging and reassessment instead of just working through it on in the talk page, but whatever. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:43, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

@Norfolkbigfish, Iazyges, Gog the Mild, and Srnec:, I wanted to start a thorough review of the article. After the second sentence I decided to stop the review, because it contains original research: [10]. The very first sentence of the article was not verified when the article was assessed as GA. The main text still contains original research. Original research, neutrality issues, factual accuracy: I kindly ask you to relist the article. Whatever you decide, I am convinced the article should be rewritten. Borsoka (talk) 13:34, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I have addressed this on the article's talk page which is probably the most appropriate place to this —https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Crusader_states&diff=953870944&oldid=953641243&diffmode=source. I think your efforts would be better served, Borsoka, using your knowledge to add to and improve this article particularly in the areas you raise of the lifestyle of the inhabitants, women and archeology rather than arguing and tagging. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:01, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Arguing and tagging is a normal way of editing. Yes, I decided to rewrite the article based on books dedicated to the crusader states. Thank you for reminding me that I use the newest edition of Jotischky's book, so page numbers in your older version are different. Nevertheless, the sentence in the article does not properly summarize Jotischky's statements: [11]. Borsoka (talk) 14:11, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I will look forward to seeing the results of that. One point, you may not agree with Jotischky but article 100% matches what he wrote on page 40 of the 2004 edition. See Talk and exact quotes. It is the only edition I have. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 14:46, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I have never challenged Jotischky - I have only challenged your selective use of his book. Borsoka (talk) 01:01, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

References

Comments by Sturmvogel_66

I've only read through the lede and some of the early sections. There's too much detail in the lede and I don't think that it's well written. There's massive overlinking and there are lots of style problems like inconsistent capitalizations, etc. I do not agree with all of Borsoka's comments, in particular his demand for daily life/lifestyle of the inhabitants, as I think that's outside of the scope of an article at this level, but I don't think that this is GA quality yet.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:59, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Duplicate links addressed. What capitalisation inconsistenties have issues? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:23, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

The one that I remember most was first crusade vs First Crusade.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:46, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Ah, the old proper noun conumdrum. I have worked round this, now only two mentions, both proper nouns, both capitalised Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Great, now start trimming and reworking the lede. The entire second and third paragraphs should be reduced to a sentence or two apiece with the bulk of the material incorporated into the main body. You've covered the establishment of the Crusader States, but have nothing on their gradual disintegration under Muslim pressure or much on their history after their foundation. Remember that the lede is supposed to summarize the entire article.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:41, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, made a start on the trimming Sturmvogel 66, I guess it will need a bit more but what do you think so far Norfolkbigfish (talk) 21:40, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

It's a start, although it's hard to know what to cover, which is why I almost always leave the lede for the last bit. So I'd suggest working on the various sections first before trying to summarize it all. Plus it doesn't really help that I'm only passingly familiar with the area in this period and don't know the scholarship hardly at all. I'd suggest reorganizing the lede to expand the political coverage (in summary form as the individual battles don't necessarily need to be mentioned) to include the infighting amongst themselves and the various wars and alliances with the surrounding powers. Since the art really didn't change during the Christian occupation, I'd drop that from the lede, although a mention of how the returning crusaders influenced Western art, architecture, fashion, etc. would probably be worthwhile.

Just be advised I don't have a lot of time to devote to this GAR, especially considering its size. So don't necessarily count on detailed responses from me.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:23, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Taken your advice on art, ce down to Background so far, thanks. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 18:22, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

• Delist. Article far from stable. Srnec (talk) 22:38, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
• Delist. Article is being totally rewritten, and I say that as the major contributor to the article that passes GAR at the beginning of April. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:24, 6 June 2020 (UTC)