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Wikipedia:Featured article review/Lee Smith (baseball)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 3:09, 9 October 2021 (UTC) [1].

Lee Smith (baseball) edit

Notified: Wknight94, Nishkid64, MisfitToys, WP Chicago, WP Biography, WP Baseball, WP Illinois, WP USA, WP College basketball, Noticed in early April

This 2007 promotion (and BLP article) isn't quite to the up modern FA sourcing standards. There's some uncited text throughout, as well as places where the cited sources don't support the text. For instance, the source for "In what would be the last start of his career, Smith picked up his first major league hit, a home run off eventual Hall of Famer Phil Niekro" is a single-game box score that doesn't support that it was Smith's last start, first hit, and that Niekro made the Hall. And for "Smith compiled his worst ERA of the decade—although he saved more than 30 games for the first time in his career. In Game 2 of the NL Championship Series, Smith recorded two outs for the save to give Chicago a 2–0 lead in the best-of-five series against the San Diego Padres, putting them one win away from the World Series", only the first sentence is supported by the source. There are likely more issues with that throughout the article. Significant sourcing work is needed here. Hog Farm Talk 22:03, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • For instance, the source for "In what would be the last start of his career, Smith picked up his first major league hit, a home run off eventual Hall of Famer Phil Niekro" is a single-game box score that doesn't support that it was Smith's last start, first hit, and that Niekro made the Hall. is quite alarming, especially if said source explicitly refutes such assertions (I haven't checked); while the assertions are probably not controversial enough to trip BLP alarms, such poor sourcing, and especially false information if present, is incompatible with Featured Article status.  – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:19, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Niekro is a HOF'er; I don't know enough about others for accuracy. The source doesn't refute those assertions, but it is completely silent on them, which is problematic. The stuff is probably correct, but it's not in the provided source. Hog Farm Talk 22:27, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • The assertions are accurate, although rather spurious points to make, IMO. From the Retrosheet career history of Smith here we can see a) in "Batting Record" the first hit of his career came in 1982, and b) in "Pitching Record" the last start of his career also came in 1982. Drilling into his 1982 batting record (here) and 1982 pitching record (here) confirms that both events (first hit and final start) came in the game of July 5 against Atlanta (boxscore here). That said, a passing mention that Smith's first major league hit was a home run (which likely was covered in contemporary news reports) would suffice, IMO. I should be able to source that via newspapers.com and update the passage in the next day or so. Dmoore5556 (talk) 06:24, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article has multiple NPOV(For instance- 'pitched fantastically'. Please define fantastically), OR('He finished the season with 37 saves and a 3.47 ERA, which was more than a point higher than the league average' This isn't supported by the inline citation and I doubt the league ERA was 2.47 that year), and not referenced (For instance- "For 1996, the Angels replaced Smith in the closer role with second-year pitcher Troy Percival." or "His ERA was nearly as high as the league average, his strikeout rate was the lowest in 15 years,") issues. Not one or two. A half a dozen at least and with me only checking bits of the article. The article needs cleanup not Featured Article status....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 22:40, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @WilliamJE: - According to B-Ref, AL ERA for 1995 was 4.71 and the MLB average ERA for same season was 4.45. So it's unclear what's going on here - may be an error for lower and original research comparing against the AL average for said year, or who knows what original research happened here. Hog Farm Talk 00:57, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • What would make sense is: Smith's ERA was 3.47, which was slightly more than a run better that the AL average of 4.71. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:11, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have updated accordingly, along with an added source for that season's league average (AL). Dmoore5556 (talk) 06:24, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update: Dmoore5556 has been working on the article. Hog Farm Talk 22:07, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I cleaned up a few items on 29 May that caught my eye, but I'm not actively working on the article at this point. As noted above, there are some sourcing and NPOV issues ("pitched fantastically" is egregious enough that I'm happy to remove that now). I'm a bit unsure of context here—is there an ongoing effort to revise prior FA articles to meet newer/current standards, or ? Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:45, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:04, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Dmoore5556 has been working on this; it looks like they've gotten a decent chunk of the Chicago Cubs section cleaned up. Hog Farm Talk 03:36, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hog Farm – yes, I've made it through the section covering his tenure with the Cubs, adding sourcing and copyediting per. I haven't done the post-Cubs sections yet, but I plan to update those in coming days. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:51, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hog Farm – now updated though his tenure with the Red Sox; more to follow. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I still see some unsourced statements and paragraphs, and I would like to fix some formatting. Dmoore5556 are you still working on this? Z1720 (talk) 13:01, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi Z1720, yes I am still working on this; I'm going through his career chronologically and I've completed 1980 through 1991 so far. Dmoore5556 (talk) 13:38, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Awesome. I look forward to reviewing this once the changes are complete. Z1720 (talk) 13:46, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:04, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dmoore5556? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:18, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Completed through 1993; "Late career" has also been updated, I just want to make a final pass through that section, which I'll do this weekend. At this point I would say significant progress has been made, so if anyone wants to go through the article and flag any remaining issues or concerns, feel free to do so. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:33, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

HF edit

@Dmoore5556: - I'll give this another quick look-through. Hog Farm Talk 04:01, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Smith was called up by Chicago in September." - this duplicates the first sentence of the next paragraph
  • "Smith made his major league debut with the Cubs on September 1, 1980, against the Atlanta Braves." - presumably there's something that can be used to support the citation for his major league debut part? Current source is a single-game box score
    • Yes, citation added for MLB debut date; existing citation still there for opponent being Atlanta. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:15, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With his 30th save in 1987, Smith became only the second pitcher (joining Dan Quisenberry) to reach the mark in four consecutive seasons. Even before then, he was known as one of the most feared relief pitchers in the game. One player told writers Bruce Nash and Allan Zullo for their book, Baseball Confidential, that one of the most daunting sights in the majors was Smith throwing "pure gas from the shadows" of Wrigley Field, which did not have lights at the time." - This paragraph needs stuff cited. Hard part will probably be figuring out where in the Nash/Zullo book the quote is from. The Quisenberry bit can be sourced to the SABR bio.
    • Sources added for that paragraph. Baseball Confidential is available at archive.org (I also have it in the original hardcopy, somewhere). Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:57, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nipper pitched only 104 more innings in the majors, and Schiraldi was out of baseball before age 30. Smith, meanwhile, registered nearly 300 saves after the trade. The trade started Smith on a journey involving seven teams in eight seasons, which may have affected his perceived electability among voters for the Baseball Hall of Fame" - source doesn't support the Nipper and Schiraldi post-trade stats
    • This segment was recently updated/reworded per added sourcing. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:15, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Through the Cubs stuff; will pick back up soon. This is looking much better sourcing-wise. Hog Farm Talk 05:02, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Cubs/Red Sox transition could be a bit smoother; the Nipper and Schiraldi trade is introduced twice
    • Adjusted to clear the redundant wording about Nipper and Schiraldi. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:13, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Smith and Jeff Reardon are considered two of the top relievers of the decade" - this is just a single listing (it really depends on who you ask. I think from what I've seen Smith is generally considered up there, but I've seen listings with Quisenberry as one of the top two, as well), so recommend phrasing this less strongly
  • "They both pitched in the same game four times," - source only supports one of these four
    • Adjusted to note the four specific games, with sourcing. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:13, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "For 1996, the Angels replaced Smith in the closer role with second-year pitcher Troy Percival. After only eight games as a setup pitcher, Smith, who was unhappy in California, was traded." [citation needed]
  • "Since his retirement two years later, much speculation had centered on Smith's specific chances of becoming a member of the Hall of Fame as well as the criteria for relief pitchers and closers in general. Only Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Goose Gossage, Bruce Sutter, Trevor Hoffman, and Mariano Rivera have been inducted into the Hall of Fame-based primarily on their relief pitching, and only Sutter and Hoffman have been inducted with fewer innings or starting appearances than Smith." - this reads like it was written before Smith got into the Hall
    • Agree, plus Hoffman and Rivera were elected to the Hall after Smith had exhausted his 15 ballot appearances; section adjusted to reflect situation during the time that Smith was being considered for the Hall by the BBWAA. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:05, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I feel like his Relief Man of the Year awards for '92 and '94 should probably be mentioned in the prose
  • His Hall of Fame page states that he has a NL record game pitched without an error. Is this worth mentioning?

This is looking much better. That's my second round of comments here. Hog Farm Talk 03:14, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dmoore5556? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:13, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria, thanks for the ping; I'm just seeing the comments by Hog Farm now (the input is much appreciated)—happy to go through them, hopefully in the next few days. I'll post an update here after. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:19, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria and Hog Farm, I've now completed edits per Hog Farm's feedback; comments in line above. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:56, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I hope to be able to look through this again tonight, but I don't think there will be much more needed work. Hog Farm Talk 14:31, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "—was traded after four appearances in April and seven in May.[103][104]" - Something has gone wrong here
  • Wording revised around his trade from the Angels. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:00, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the team was again eliminated during pool play, losing both of their games." - Needs a source, shouldn't be hard to find one for just the results
  • "Following Smith's retirement, much speculation centered on his specific chances of becoming a member of the Hall of Fame as well as the criteria for relief pitchers and closers in general. At the time that Smith retired, only Hoyt Wilhelm and Rollie Fingers had been inducted to the Hall of Fame primarily for their relief pitching, in 1985 and 1992, respectively. During the time Smith appeared on Hall of Fame balloting (2003–2017), the Hall added relievers Dennis Eckersley (2004), Bruce Sutter (2006), and Goose Gossage (2008). Fingers and Eckersley won MVP awards, and Sutter captured a Cy Young Award, but Smith was rarely a serious contender for either trophy. Smith pitched in a transitional era, when closers began to be expected to pitch only a single inning; although Smith and Gossage each pitched in slightly over 1,000 games, Gossage ended his career with over 500 more innings pitched (1809+1⁄3 to 1289+1⁄3)" - sourcing here is a little problematic, as it's only source to Smith and Gossage's career stats registers
  • Multiple sources (and an efn) added to this section, with light copyedit per. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:57, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Smith's candidacy may have been hampered by the number of outstanding relievers on the ballot; Sutter had earned increasing vote totals for nine years before Smith appeared on the ballot, and Gossage—who first appeared on the ballot three years before Smith—had received greater support in each year from 2004 until his induction in 2008." - unsourced, and the "may have been" statement definitely needs sourced to avoid the appearance of original research
  • I've remove this statement; while the sentiment is plausible, I couldn't find a source, and there's already ample discussion around Smith and other relievers with regards to HOF consideration. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:54, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some of the categories aren't supported by text in the article: Jackson Generals (Texas League) players, Lake Elsinore Storm players, New Orleans Zephyrs players, Northwestern State Demons basketball players, Pompano Beach Cubs players, and Louisiana Democrats.
  • I've added mention of the missing minor league teams: Jackson Generals, Lake Elsinore Storm, New Orleans Zephyrs, and Pompano Beach Cubs. Dmoore5556 (talk)

With the categories, I'd recommend removing the Louisiana Democrats one, as politics isn't mentioned at all and I'm not sure that it should be. The Northwestern State Demons basketball category may be spurious, as I'm not seeing evidence in the article that he played college basketball. The others should be easy to fix by simply naming the minor league teams he played for in the article.

  • I concur that the Northwestern State Demons basketball players category is spurious; the timing of this article in June 1975 along with him making his minor-league baseball debut in the summer of 1975 leaves no window for him to have played college basketball. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:56, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Louisiana Democrats category removed. I also removed the several basketball categories, as he did not play that sport above the high school level (he did not play in college or professionally). While he did play basketball at the high school level (he probably kicked a soccer ball at some point too) it is not a distinguishing characteristic. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:44, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dmoore5556 - Would you like me to leave a message at WT:BASEBALL to the effect that this is very close to done, and that further input would be appreciated? Hog Farm Talk 03:09, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hog Farm, sounds fine to message WT:BASEBALL to invite further input. I'll go through your comments above (and reply in-line again) in the next very few days. His BR-minors page provides a definitive list of professional teams he played for, here, which can be used to check/correct what's listed at the end of his page. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:31, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hog Farm, tonight I was able to go through each of the latest items, above, with comments added in-line. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:54, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Will look at this again tonight. Hog Farm Talk 18:26, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Close without FARC - It's not perfect (there's some referencing formatting stuff and Baseball from the Outside isn't a super strong source as it's a personal blog), but the major concerns I had coming into this seem to be addressed, unless someone else catches something I missed. Hog Farm Talk 16:45, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This is close to a close/keep. I did a copyedit of the article and removed extra information that I felt wasn't directly related to Smith; I hope someone can review the edits and comment below if anything is restored. I'm not thrilled with the length of the Chicago Cubs section, but I won't let that prevent a future close recommendation, although I hope someone else read through and summarise the text a little more. The 2003-2017 Hall of Fame Voting links in the references section need to be formatted; once that is complete please ping me. Z1720 (talk) 16:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Z1720: - I have formatted those reference links. Hog Farm Talk 18:48, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Close without FARC Concerns have been addressed, and I think this article meets the requirements. Z1720 (talk) 18:49, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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