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Wikipedia:Featured article review/Chris Gragg/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 8:59, 12 September 2020 (UTC) [1].

Chris Gragg edit

Notified: Bagumba, Hires an editor, Chevvin, Ecleric, Therapyisgood, Seattle, WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Biography/Sports and games, WikiProject United States, WikiProject Arkansas, WikiProject University of Arkansas, WikiProject National Football League, ‎WikiProject College football
Tonystewart14 could you please notify the other WikiProjects listed on talk? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:05, 28 July 2020 (UTC) [reply]
Done. Tonystewart14 (talk) 03:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC) [reply]

This article was recently featured on the main page for the subject's 30th birthday, but reads like a promotion of him and his brother. Many trivial statistics and quotes that fail WP:UNDUE and FA criteria 1A and 1D. Tonystewart14 (talk) 03:29, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

John M Wolfson
  • The prose seems suboptimal and I've done some touching up in that regards, but that might be a) my own personal preferences and b) not fatal for FA purposes.
  • The Twitter announcement of his retirement is permissible per ABOUTSELF (especially since it's verified), but not "high-quality", so a better one should be used if found. Also, why is the archive in Korean? Hmmm...
  • The Combine performance is only a couple of sentences, so is not UNDUE in my opinion. It may or may not belong in the lead, I'll let others decide that.
  • The "Professional career" section is, however, full of cruft and is lean on actual statistics. Perhaps a TNTing might be in order.
Overall this is salvageable but does need some touching up. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 06:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bagumba

Here are my comments left, which I left earlier at Talk:Chris_Gragg#FA_status:

  1. Overhyping combine results in the lead. There's no long-term notability from these.
    Has been toned down a bit. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:46, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  2. The lead mentions too many trivial stats, and the numbers are anyways not that impressive. The lead does not need WP:INTEXT attribution to Twitter platform, and saying he "was listed as" a graduate assistant reads like an investigation report or draws doubt whether he really was an assistant.
    I disagree on the trivial statistics. Listing career statistics in the lead gives readers a quick cross-comparison between athletes for the scope of their careers. Therapyisgood (talk) 17:17, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    In his case, they are not defining enough for the opening paragraph, if even the lead at all. A casual or non-football fan wouldn't know its significance (or lack thereof). He is not an all-time leader, nor are they near any traditional career milestones. It would be more insightful to state if he was a starter or a backup during his career.—Bagumba (talk) 05:01, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Changed. Therapyisgood (talk) 22:55, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  3. 2010 Sugar Bowl details are excessive
    Has been cut. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:16, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Excessive detail on 2011 LSU game
    Has been cut. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:16, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Trivial that he was first rookie to sign
    Agree, has been cut. Therapyisgood (talk) 04:25, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Too much details on meaningless preseason games
    Cut. Therapyisgood (talk) 04:33, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Excessive detail on brother Chris
    Cut. Therapyisgood (talk) 17:30, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

—Bagumba (talk) 07:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Struck part of #2 resolved by John M Wolfson.—Bagumba (talk) 07:31, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not saying I'll be able to save it, but I'll take a look at the article. @John M Wolfson: Regarding the tweet about his retirement, I think we may be stuck with it. I can't find anything about his retirement from any source, reliable or not. Neither the NFL website or pro-football-reference.com list his status as either a free agent or retired, so for now, his twitter account is all we have. Famous Hobo (talk) 01:51, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is very odd and suspect, IMO. We'll see how it goes. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 05:53, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is literally nothing else on this. Therapyisgood (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can take a look. Therapyisgood (talk) 16:49, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jargon and prose issues

Full of jargon that is understandable only to US football people.

  • redshirted ... redshirt is defined early, but using the term as a verb later in the article is still poor prose. Will committed to the University of Arkansas in September 2014 and signed with the institution in December ... why do we have a full sentence about his brother, and non-US people will not know what "committed" means here. In fact, why do we have a full paragraph about his brother?
    • Cut. I have added a sentence back on his brother, but feel free to cut if it's out of place. Therapyisgood (talk) 04:27, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gragg committed to the University of Arkansas, we don't explain "committed"
  • the Jets waived wide receiver K. D. Cannon ... no explanation for those who don't follow US football of what "waived" means ...
  • preseason games with the Jets ... He did not play in any regular-season ... why regular-season, but preseason?
  • free agent is never defined or linked
  • Gragg injured his right knee, which caused him to miss the remainder of the Bills' season.[55][56][57][58][59][60] Seriously? Six citations?
    • One for each week he was ruled out for. Which resulted in him not playing for the remainder of the season. I took a look at the last reference but that doesn't mention since when he was ruled out. Therapyisgood (talk) 04:29, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I moved the six references into one super reference. Hopefully that works. Famous Hobo (talk) 07:21, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gragg underwent knee surgery in January 2015, which Gragg stated "limited" him during the offseason. ... well, isn't that surprising. Why such a useless statement in an FA?
  • Rodak gave Gragg a "45%" chance to make Buffalo's 53-man roster ... why the quotes ?
  • on an "A–F" scale, ESPN columnist Mike Rodak gave the Bills a "C" grade in ... why the quotes ?
  • Though voted to the second-team of the Coaches Preseason All-Southeastern Conference (SEC) squad ... why the hyphen?
  • After his senior year, Gragg participated in the NFL Scouting Combine, where he ran ... of all tight ends in attendance. If the Combine is open to all positions, why is his rank among tight ends being singled out?
    • They're compared to each other at each position, ie tight ends to tight ends to see which tight end does the best at the metrics measured. This allows the teams to know what they're getting out of a player, ie how fast a tight end compared to others in his class at the Combine, etc. Therapyisgood (talk) 04:35, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Bowl Championship Series (BCS) system subsequently ranked Arkansas as the third-best team in the nation, ... why "subsequently" (the second-most-poorly-used word on wikipedia, after "however")?
  • His parents were Tenita and Kelvin Gragg ... sounds like he's got new parents.
  • In 2010, Gragg was converted into a tight end, which made three slots at the position on the Razorbacks' depth chart. ... all sorts of prose issues ... "was converted" (passive voice, by whom), made three slots ... what ... that he played ?? What is this sentence saying?
  • I see no link anywhere to Draft (sports).

This is just random poking around ... I could go on ... I don't know what was going on with that FAC, but serious attention is warranted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:29, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • To be fair, there was a link to draft (sports) but I removed it in my copyedit because I thought it was common knowledge. I also added the "parents were" since I didn't want it to be a single long sentence. The other stuff was already there, however. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 00:22, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • No prob, Just try to think about people not from US when reading US football articles ... forget everything you know :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notes to fix

  • Prior to the 2011 season, Gragg replaced D. J. Williams, a first-string tight end who graduated in 2010. in what way?
    • According to the reference article, Gragg was a backup for Williams for two years before becoming a starter following Williams' graduation. Tonystewart14 (talk) 01:43, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Therapyisgood (talk) 01:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Therapyisgood: Any update? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:17, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria, SandyGeorgia, Bagumba, Tonystewart14, John M Wolfson, ready for a re-review. I've addressed all the comments above. Therapyisgood (talk) 18:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, TIG: a few days off for a series of real-life minor but irritating issues has me struggling to catch up. This is on my To Do List. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does Warren High School really need to be relinked; it is linked in the lead and the first section?
  • In spring 2009, Gragg converted into a tight end, which made three slots at the position on the Razorbacks' depth chart.
Converted from a wide receiver to a tight end? Because I had to go back to the previous section to find that he was recruited as a wide receiver. And then I had to guess what three slots meant ... there were three players for that position, and he became ... something like third-string ??? I sort of figured out that out by reading the next paragraph ... ???? Could we make this easier on the reader by getting all of the info in the same paragraph?
Clarified. Therapyisgood (talk) 00:41, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gragg made one catch in the contest for 16 yards
Reads like there was a contest for 16 yards. Gragg made one 16-yard catch in the contest ??
  • After the game, the Bowl Championship Series (BCS) system, which averaged team positions in the Harris Interactive College Football Poll, the Coaches' Poll, and six computer rankings to list teams by their combined average position,[24] ranked Arkansas as the third-best team in the nation, behind the Louisiana State University Tigers and the Alabama Crimson Tide, with the former scheduled as the Razorbacks' next opponent.
This is what User:Tony1 called a snake. It needs to be decapitated. That is, there are too many clauses here to sort, and the whole thing needs rewriting.
  • When the Bills cut their roster to meet the NFL's 53-man roster rule, which, in 2013, required each team to have 53 players or less on their active roster by August 31, Gragg made the team.
53 is explained twice, in more detail than needed, and the sentence becomes a tangle or repeated use of roster and 53. How about something like:
  • When the Bills cut their roster to meet the NFL's 2013 53-man limit by August 31, Gragg made the team.

Something was really off at that FAC, as this is not a very inspiring article even after the writing is correctted, but I don't think much of interest can be added. After these corrections, I think we've spent enough time on it, it has already run on the main page, and it's decent enough now to avoid FARC. @Tonystewart14: An update from the nominator, who has not weighed in for a month, would be helpful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:55, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Close without FARC I agree with the comment above; while this probably shouldn't have been promoted in the first place, I believe it has addressed my original concerns. TIG has done a good job with addressing prose, and I fixed the last neutrality issue by taking the "valuable utility man" comment out of the opening paragraph of the article while leaving it in the body. Overall, the article is much better than it was a month ago. Tonystewart14 (talk) 03:35, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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