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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Under the Bridge

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 04:29, 27 June 2008 [1].

Under the Bridge

edit

"Under the Bridge" is an immensely popular 1991 song by Red Hot Chili Peppers that helped shape the alternative rock movement. It is the highest charting alt rock song on the Billboard Hot 100, reaching number two. The article has been a GA since early May, and some copyedits have been performed, albeit minor ones. It is extremely comprehensive, covering every aspect of the song's writing, construction, release, acclaim and aftermath. Please do not hesitate to identify any flaws or problems you can find; all comments, questions, and concerns will be addressed as soon as possible. NSR77 TC 21:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Still needs some work, I think, definitely on the prose and some other minor points. A few full dates in the refs missing wikilinks (#31 and #33 for instance). I'm dubious as to whether specific quotations from reviewers should be included in the lead, and certainly choosing to use the Tampa Tribune seems bizarre given they aren't really an authoritative voice on the music scene. I think a general overview of the legacy of the song is fine. Prose isn't great throughout, a few examples:
  • The first sentence is misleading - I read it as the album which was released on that date.
  • "The lyrics were originally written as a means for vocalist Anthony Kiedis to express a feeling of loneliness and despondency, and as a reflection on narcotics and how it impacted his life." - "originally" is redundant; should it be "his feelings" rather than "a feeling"; narcotics is plural so how "they" influenced his life. The whole sentence would probably be stronger as "Anthony Kiedis wrote the lyrics...".
  • "Under the Bridge" became both a critical and commercial success" - "both" is redundant
  • "In 1992 the song peaked at number two on the Billboard Hot 100 and was eventually certified platinum by the RIAA" - was it certified platinum in 1992? Not sure the year is necessary at all since it's probably assumed it peaked in the year it was released rather than any other.
  • "The single's success was only widened with the release of its accompanying music video, which was put into heavy rotation on music television channels." - "only" and "accompanying" aren't necessary, and possibly the first "music" isn't either (I think it's implied but maybe not).
  • Viewers choice needs an apostrophe
  • The "however" at the end of the second paragraph isn't contradicting anything and the whole sentence is pretty stilted with so many commas.
This suggests it needs a pretty thorough copyedit throughout before it should be passed. But the information in the article is good, and the references look pretty good, so just needs a bit of work on polishing it up. Trebor (talk) 23:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm leaning towards removing the Tampa Tribune quote, but the main reason I had included it in the first place was to give the reader an understanding of the single's popularity at the time. Despite this, Tampa Tribune isn't, as you pointed out, a notable music publication. Prose-wise, most of your comments are aimed at extraneous wording; I'll have a look at the rest later, when I have some more time. NSR77 TC 01:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • No dead links (good)
  • Paragraphs are good sizes
  • Put 'References' after 'Notes'
  • Link the dates in the references
  • Ensure references are in ascending order when in a row, such as "this'."[4][1][5] Kiedis" needs to be "this'."[1][4][5] Kiedis"

Gary King (talk) 00:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments regarding criterion three:
    • Image:Red Hot Chili Peppers - Under the Bridge.ogg is not low bit rate (WP:NFCC#3B); 139kbps is even superior to CD quality.
      • I don't have access to Audacity (this file was uploaded by another editor), though I can hopefully find some other method of fixing this issue. Please be patient. NSR77 TC 01:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Do you want me to upload a new version of that one (a la Image:RHCP-UnderTheBridgeLiveHydePark-31s.ogg, which I presume is OK with elcobbla)? giggy (:O) 07:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • They say 192kbps is "CD equivalent" and even that's not losless from a CD... I don't see why this isn't reduced... I think it's fair use paranoia. gren グレン 09:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Please provide a diff where I indicated concern of litigation that would constitute "paranoia". The requirement for low resolution/fidelity is Policy; featured articles are expected to be in full compliance, even if it is a "minor" tweak. 128 kbps is generally considered CD-quality. 192 kbps indeed losses some additional artifacts, but the difference is not generally distinguishable in the general populace. Exact kbps is moot; if 60 kbps is good enough for the other clip in the article, why is 139 kbps needed for this clip? Giggy, thank you for responding in a helpful manner; it would be great if you could do that. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 14:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Image:FruscianteUTB.jpg is not low resolution (also NFCC#3B). ЭLСОВВОLД talk 01:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Well Written --'Andrea 93 (msg) 04:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There's no need to devote four sentences to "Give it Away". Par it down to the pertinent details. WesleyDodds (talk) 07:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • About the YouTube videos, are we linking to copyright violations? I'm on a slow enough connection, I'd rather not open the videos up.
  • What makes www.everyhit.com a reliable site?
  • Probably don't need the four sources on the sentence in the third paragraph of Live performances. A bit of overkill.
Otherwise sources look good, links checked out fine with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
None of the videos are of copyrighted material as far as I can tell. The Everyhit reference has been replaced. NSR77 TC 22:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Could you merge the first two sentences? They're short and stubby at the moment.

Fixed. NSR77 TC 17:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The success of "Under the Bridge" led in part to the departure of guitarist John Frusciante, who was instrumental in its composition." - this would be awkward to someone who didn't know why he left... might wanna clarify that.
  • "Driving home after rehearsal the same day" - you haven't specified a day (else I didn't notice), so "the same day" is awkward.
  • "I don't ever want to feel/Like I did that day/Take me to the place I love" - last lyrics quote ("In the city I live in/The City of Angels/Lonely as I am/Together we cry") was four lines, I think it'd be better if you did the same here (so include "take me all the way").
    • I'm not quite sure I understand what you're asking... NSR77 TC 17:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Meh, don't worry about it. giggy (:O) 02:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""Under the Bridge", as such, was selected to be Blood Sugar Sex Magik's second single." - does this really need to be said (considering the context)?
    • It is a good sentence transition. NSR77 TC 17:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Pause and Play included the song in their unordered list of the "10 Songs of the 90's";" - I don't see it here?
    • It's somewhere in there. NSR77 TC 17:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't see it; I did a Ctrl+F for the song title, the band name, the album title, and got nothing every time. giggy (:O) 02:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The video ranked eighth in a poll dictated by the readers of the Chicago Tribune called "The Best and Worst of '92"" - 8th best or 8th worst?
  • "Recently, however, Kiedis has..." - recentism. When does "recently" refer to?

Overall, nicely done. giggy (:O) 07:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments
  • the allmusic review was written years after the song was out. A comment like ""become an integral part of the 1990s alterna-landscape," could have only been made in retrospect, so it shouldn't be alongside the ocntemporary reviews
  • "Due to the success of "Give it Away", the band did not foresee "Under the Bridge" as being equally viable."--the causality is kinda lost on me.
  • ""Under the Bridge" is not interpreted in a different manner than what is on the record—the track is largely performed...the same as it was recorded." Note the redundancy and repetition.
  • "Released as the band's fist live album, it became the highest-grossing concert at a single venue in history, with a total revenue of $17.1 million." The sentence is very awkward: are you saying an album became the highest-grossing single-venue concert in history?
    • Fixed.
  • Play.com is a commercial website, what makes it reliable?
  • "Gym Class Heroes continued to play "Under the Bridge" during their upcoming tour" huh? The tour is upcoming right?
  • The whole Live performances needs a ce I think. A few details could be trimmed and its a little too hard on Anthony. ""Under the Bridge" is also performed on the Chili Peppers' concert video Off the Map released in 2001, and their exclusive iTunes Originals set-list in 2006.", for one, can go.
    • Why remove a sentence that is pertinent to the topic? I don't see any logic in that. NSR77 TC 03:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Music video has variations of "superimposed" appearing in four adjacent sentences.
  • By "highly-rated" TV program, you mean that it has high TRP ratings right? I think critical acclaim instead comes off by using that phrase.
  • I'm not comfortable with the use of fan-recorded live YouTube videos as sources. While it does feature band members themselves, there isn't a publisher we can attribute the reference to. Further, while the present case might seem okay, the practice does give scope for OR. For example: if a famous musician was a buddy of yours; you could interview him, record it, put the video on YouTube and then cite it on Wikipedia. Since there isn't anything like a publisher or fact-checking involved, we don't know the accuracy of the interview (you could have doctored the tape, he might have been joking etc). So I don't think the YouTube videos you're citing could be considered reliable sources. indopug (talk) 22:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm busy at the moment and will consider the rest of your comments tomorrow, but in terms of the YouTube video, it is merely his opinion. There are no facts being relayed- it is simply the singer's thoughts on a certain topic. If you can find me a particular guideline that I can not argue against, fine, but I don't agree with you at the moment. You're essentially saying anything anyone says or thinks is wrong unless conducted in an edited interview. If he was joking, why would his band play the song on tour or a tribute album? While your thoughts could theoretically be the case, I don't see any reason we can't believe the vocalist. NSR77 TC 00:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say just get rid of the video, mainly because it's talking about live covers, and there's probably a number of bands that have covered this song live. Imagine how insane the covers section at "Smells Like Teen Spirit" would be if live covers were included (which used to be in the article, so go through the history to see what a mess that was before they were all removed). The band covering the song on record is enough. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not just the Gym Class Heroes video, even the Frusciante video where he compares it to "Andy Warhol" and "Rip-Off" has same problem of no publisher. indopug (talk) 09:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wesley, there's only a minor reference to the live version. NSR77 TC 20:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image concerns resolved, Kelly hi! 23:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on images/media.

  • Image:UndertheBridge.jpg should be reduced in size per WP:NFCC#3b - the community standard for album covers seems to be about 300x300.
  • Image:FruscianteUTB.jpg rationale should address WP:NFCC#8 a little better. Right now it only says "The screenshot is being used for informational purposes only...". The commentary in the article would seem to justify the use of the screenshot to increase reader understanding; the rationale on the image page just needs to be improved somewhat to state why it is being used.
  • For the two audio samples, the page should specify the length of the original work so that a reviewer can verify the clip length meets the "30 seconds or 10%, whichever is shorter" rule from WP:SAMPLE. Recommend using {{Music sample info}} on the media description pages to ensure all required information is there.

Kelly hi! 15:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • The writing is mostly good, except for when I hit the "Composition" section, which I've had a partial go at. Did another editor do this bit? Still at issue:
    • "who had spent most of his career singing very fast, largely due to his limited ability to reach high notes."—I don't see the causality here (the "due to").
      • Reworded it to change emphasis. NSR77 TC 20:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "E major seven chord progression"—E major seven ... "E-major 7th chord" (E–G#–B–D#) might be understood by a larger proportion of readers (unsure; would you use the standard popular-music abbreviation here?). "Seven" alone is odd, and it's usually a figure. There's another further down. But the conceptual issue is that it's a chord, not a progression. The latter involves more than one chord, so you'd have to explicate where it moves to.
      • I'm not exactly sure how one would present this on Wikipedia, though I imagine 70+ per cent of the readers do not know how to play guitar, therefore using what you suggested may be confusing (correct me if I'm wrong). The word "progression" snuck in there. It is not a progression, the song halts for a few seconds after the chord is played. NSR77 TC 20:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "struck at a moderately fast tempo to provide a beat"—No, "struck at a moderately fast beat".
    • "jumps back into a verse that once again uses an E major seven chord prior to commencing the chorus"—euuw; a verse comences a chorus? Grammar. Back ... once again? Unsure how to fix this; unsure of the intended meaning.
      • Reworded this, though it is a bit tricky of a sentence to phrase. NSR77 TC 20:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "In between" what?
    • "As the choir, Kiedis and drums drop off" ... a cliff?

Then:

    • Can we drop the "in order" in "in order to", or I'll do a Hitler salute.
      • Where exactly is that? NSR77 TC 20:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • You type "in order" into your finder ... TONY (talk) 15:13, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Done - save the Hitler salute for another day... giggy (:O) 10:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can you let me know where people get the "Summary" text from in the audio-clip info pages? I want to copy-edit the source. TONY (talk) 15:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've been copyediting the article for NSR77 since the GA nom, but haven't done too much work on the Composition section. I'll clean it up. As for for Summary text, there's endless variations on it, so if you want to edit it yourself, I see no problem with that. I'm not sure if that template is provided anywhere in particular. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I was the only editor working on the article; I agree with you the "Composition" section is by far the weakest, though. Not sure why. NSR77 TC 20:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Update the article? indopug (talk) 04:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As an expansive Frusciante fan, I've never heard that. When I read it I was surprised; especially since Frusciante has never mentioned he even listens to Joe Jackson in the thousands of interviews he's given. Furthermore, I'm led to believe Rolling Stone made a connection themselves, rather than asking Frusciante. NSR77 TC 11:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article just came out, and the paragraphs for each song entry are rather insubstantial. I don't see the list worth mentioning right now. Maybe down the line. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. I have done an extensive copyedit on the article in the hopes of improving the prose. Please take a close look and see if the current text says what it is supposed to. I have a few questions/comments.
    • This sentence seems too vague to me: "The song has remained an inspiration to other artists and became a seminal component of the alternative rock movement of the early- and mid-1990s." Perhaps it could be replaced with a mention of some of the Best of lists it has been placed on and a sentence about the numerous covers
      • It is mainly a representation of the cover versions and best of lists, but including them all in the intro isn't practical. Is this what you meant? NSR77 TC 02:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The first paragraph of the Origins and recording section does not flow well to me. Was the song recorded before Rubin got there or after Rubin asked Kiedis to use the song?
      • It is basically opening the paragraph up, telling the reader Rubin visited Kiedis often. NSR77 TC 02:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The lead mentions "David Fricke of Rolling Stone" while the body said "David Fricke of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch" - can you please correct one?
      • Fixed.
    • The quote from Philip Booth of The Tampa Tribune is sourced to David Fricke's St. Louis Post-Dispatch article. Is this correct?
    • I removed some of the sentences in the Live performances section that dealt in general with Kiedis's singing. This has already been mentioned in various places in the article (including in this section) and I think it is out of place to go too indepth.
    • " and in 2004 at London's Hyde Park over the course of three days, in which an estimated 250,000 people attended" - this makes it sound like they played this song for over 3 days at Hyde Park.
      • Fixed.

Karanacs (talk) 15:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, I am satisfied with the revisions. --Laser brain (talk) 03:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC) Oppose, 1a. It's seen a lot of improvement, but it's still rough around the edges. Considering the shape it was in when listed, it should have had a substantive peer review before being listed here.[reply]
    • "The song has remained an inspiration to other artists and became a seminal component of the alternative rock movement of the early- and mid-1990s." Mixed tenses, please revise.
    • "It was originally recorded on an acoustic guitar in Anthony Kiedis' personal studio." This sentence seems oddly out of place as it interrupts the narrative.
      • This sentence should not be there and appears to have been added by an inexperienced user. NSR77 TC 03:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Kiedis wrote much of the song during a period when he felt distraught and emotionally drained." Don't you mean "lyrics" and not "song"?
    • "Driving home after rehearsal in April 1991, Kiedis felt a profound sense of loss—his best friend, in some form, resented him." I don't really understand what the "in some form" is doing.
    • Attention to capitalization and punctuation of quotes is needed.. if the quote is a complete sentence, capitalize the first word and place the period inside the end quote. There are other errors such as missing end quotes from quotes within quotes.
    • The Composition section needs attention from a musician; it appears that some items were assembled from sources but they don't flow well or make much sense musically.
    • "... the silence is broken by closed hi-hat and wood block struck at a moderately fast beat." This doesn't really make sense, musically. What's a fast beat? Do you mean a fast tempo?
    • "The song continues with another verse and subsequent chorus, when the bass finally enters." This bass walked into a bar...
    • "The second chorus transitions into a different verse, where Chad Smith begins to play the drums ..." You wrote earlier about a high-hat and wood block?
    • "Kiedis has noted that sometimes forgets or rearranges song lyrics in the verses." I don't know what this means. --Laser brain (talk) 18:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm very busy at the moment but will tackle these issues either tomorrow or the day after. Thanks for your patience. NSR77 TC 03:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
NSR77 asked me to copyedit some more. I'll try and finish that up soon. WesleyDodds (talk) 05:32, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the article's flaws have been addressed. If any of the above editors feel there are any further problems or that something that has been missed, fell free to elaborate. NSR77 TC 02:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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