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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Toa Payoh ritual murders

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:30, 10 January 2009 [1].

Toa Payoh ritual murders

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Nominator(s): Jappalang (talk)

I am nominating for Featured Article, one article that tells of sex, drugs, and rock and rollviolence. Paganistic elements were also involved as two children were killed, and their blood drained and offered to the IndianHindu goddess, Kali. All because the mastermind, one Adrian Lim, wanted revenge on the police for investigating him on a rape charge. A case that he felt could never have happened, because one could never rape a "(holy) wife", women whom he tricked (or in this case, drugged) to give him sex and money. Read about this 1981 murder case that stunned, horrified, and intrigued the entire island nation for years. The United States might have Charles Manson, but Singapore had its Adrian Lim. Jappalang (talk) 22:15, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Image review File:Sub Court crowd.jpg - I am on the fence about the "purpose" of this fair use rationale. It states "Although the scene can be described in words, the degree of activity cannot be fully conveyed in words to those unfamiliar with the surroundings. In this case, an extraordinary claim is made in regards to the case in question (the Toa Payoh Ritual Murders) that Singaporeans would crowd the courts just for a look of the accused." - To some degree I agree with this statement - crowds are not easy to describe and this picture helps convey the nature of this particular crowd. However, the article states that "Throngs of people constantly packed the grounds of the courts, hoping to catch a glimpse of Adrian Lim and to hear the revelations first-hand", which is a very good description of what is happening in the photo and I wonder how necessary the photo really is. Do we really need to use a fair use image in this case? Fair use images are supposed to "significantly increase the reader's understanding" of the topic under discussion (WP:NFCC #8). I am hoping other reviewers will weigh in on this point. (All other images have adequate fair use rationales, verifiable licenses, and sufficient descriptions.) Awadewit (talk) 00:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I peer-reviewed this, and copyedited at an earlier stage. It does not make for pleasant reading, but the full ghastly story should be known: "Man's inhumanity to man..." etc. I have a small number of suggestions:
    • The phrase "a far cry from..." in the Singaporean society section sounds like editorializing, and should be replaced by the more neutral "in contrast to..."
    • I believe Lim's conversion to Catholoicism should be more specifically cited
    • It would help if the Singapore $ values were shown with equivalent US$. I regret to say it, but I don't know what a Singapre dollar is worth.
    • There is a repeated tendency to use the verb "stay" when I think you mean "live". In the "arrests" section, Lim informs Pereira that he is "staying" in the flat. In the Hoe section, she is sent to "stay" with her grandmother; later in the same paragraph she goes to "stay" with Lim, and at the end of the section she continues to "stay" with him. In all of the instances I think "stay" should be replaced by "live".
In general the prose is of a high and compelling standard. On Awadewit's fair use image point I have to agree that, under the strict interpretation of the fair use justification, the image in question does not significantly increase my understanding of the article. The vivid prose is plenty enough. Brianboulton (talk) 17:51, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much. I have replaced "a far cry from ..." and "live" with your suggestions. US$ equivalents of the Singapore dollar values have also been included. I am not certain by "more specifically cited" for the Catholic conversion, do you mean to cite it to a source or to expand in greater detail the statement? As for the picture, I am still of two minds whether to leave it in or to take it out (two nays so far... any body else?). I will be looking to see if I can find an image that is more appropriate to that section in the meantime. Jappalang (talk) 23:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The statement that Lim converted to Catholicism should have an in-line citation. No expansion of the statement necessary, just the citation. Brianboulton (talk) 23:14, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It was the same source at the end of the paragraph, but it is no fuss to cite it again if it was particularly contentious. Done. Jappalang (talk) 00:15, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:10, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Awful story, but very well told. One query "Early in the nineteenth century, immigrants flooded into the South East Asian region, colonising the Straits Settlements including the island city of Singapore." I understand the South East Asian region as including Thailand and other areas not known for nineteenth century migrations. Would this be better as "Early in the nineteenth century, immigrants flooded into the Straits Settlements area including the island city of Singapore." Thanks for fixing that .ϢereSpielChequers 21:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your support. I have narrowed the region to Peninsula Malaysia, which was basically West Malaysia and Singapore. Jappalang (talk) 23:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments Interesting in the worst way possible. I don't have time to go through the whole article tonight, but rest assured I will be back tomorrow.

  • "Indian goddess, Kali" I think it would be more accurate to refer her as a Hindu goddess.
Agreed and changed. Jappalang (talk) 08:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The 41-day trial was then the second longest to have been held in the courts of Singapore." For me, "then" interrupts the natural flow of the article, it doesn't serve any real purpose, chronological or otherwise.
Well, it was the second longest trial at the point of 1983 (the longest was a trial that involved an offshore prison riot). However, in 1990, Justice Chua would later preside over what would become the longest trial in Singapore (a 168-day drug-trafficking case), so the Toa Payoh ritual murders was the second longest up to that point. Is there a suggestion to write an accurate statement on this? Jappalang (talk) 08:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe "At the time?" Dabomb87 (talk) 15:25, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Jappalang (talk) 16:15, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Toa Payoh ritual murders shocked the populace of Singapore who did not expect such an act to take place in the heartland of their society." More of a personal style preference more than anything, but could you perhaps sneak a comma after "Singapore"?
Done. Jappalang (talk) 08:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In addition, the rulings set by the courts became local case studies for diminished responsibility." In addition to what? One of those additive terms that doesn't really help here.
Connected this sentence with the previous, using the "and" conjunction. Jappalang (talk) 08:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1981, Singapore experienced a crime that shocked the nation." I hate to mess with a riveting story, but can we not be so bombastic?
Oh boy... I am running out of ideas to overcome this. The peer reviews have mentioned about the sensationalism of the various attempts to construct a connecting statement between this section and the next; each time, I have tried to tone it down. I sincerely (and gladly) welcome any suggestions. Jappalang (talk) 08:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Likely, I am too close to my writing to know its "atmosphere", but I tried to change the subject from "Singapore experienced ..." to "three Singaporeans committed ...". Would that be less sensationalistic, or is the problem with the "shocked a nation" part? Jappalang (talk) 08:51, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is the "shocked the nation" part. Hmm... I will come back to this. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:25, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Could you reconsider? The phrase "shocked the <noun>" has been used in several encyclopaedias, such as World History, Louisville, and Britannica. Jappalang (talk) 16:15, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. If I come up with something better, I will post here, but it is a minor issue. Dabomb87 (talk) 05:00, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He also converted to Catholicism for his marriage." Did he do something else for his marriage?
Removed. Jappalang (talk) 08:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were among the spiritual entities he would call on"-->were among the spiritual entities he called on
Changed. Jappalang (talk) 08:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have no more technical comments for that section, but I must say it is quite disturbing. Dabomb87 (talk) 04:41, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jappalang, I haven't forgotten you, but I want to read this article in detail with no distractions, and I don't quite have the time for that now. Give me a couple hours and I will be back. Regards, Dabomb87 (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • "In late 1980 he suffered a setback: he was arrested and charged with rape." I understand the intent of "suffered a setback" to naturalize the flow, but when is being arrested and charged with a crime not a setback?
  • "He also told them that Pragngan demanded that he have sex with their female victims." Second "that" can go.
  • "who would 12 years later deliver judgment on serial murderer John Martin Scripps" A bit clunky, try "who would deliver judgment on serial murderer John Martin Scripps 12 years later"
  • "Hoe, had to accept the court's offer of counsel," Delete the first comma.
  • "Only an unsound mind would dump the bodies close to his home when his plan was to distract the police, said the doctor." In this form, this almost sounds like a quote. If it isn't, rephrase it like this: "He (also?) said that only an unsound mind would dump the bodies close to his home when his plan was to distract the police."
  • "The defence also criticised Dr Chee for failing to recognise their clients' symptoms." "also" seems idle here, did they criticize him for something else?
  • "On 25 May 1983 eager crowds massed outside the building, waiting for the outcome of the trial." I would do away with "eager"; not because of POV but because "massed outside the building" and "waiting" seem to imply the same thing.
  • "Tan hired Francis Seow to appeal for her, while the court again assigned Isaac to Hoe." I think "while" should be and here, as the "the court again assigned Isaac to Hoe" is additive info.
  • "Journalists deemed it as the most sensational trial"
  • "Its 16-day run brought in only $130,000 (US$224,791)," Personal preference here, but "only" bothers me.
  • Use a two-column reflist, as those with more columns will break on some browsers.

On the whole, an excellent article. I cannot access my account at the moment, which explains why I posted these comments as an anon editor Dabomb87 (talk) 03:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the article according to your suggestions. I had difficulty in trying to substitute "he suffered a setback". Deleting it, however, did not seem to affect the flow greatly, so that is what I did. Jappalang (talk) 05:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support I peer reviewed this and found it close to FAC criteria and it has only been improved since. I looked carefully at the crowd photo and think it adds to the picture in ways that justify its fair use. It is hard to convey in just words the sheer size of the crowd, how they are packed into places where people would not normally stand or be, and the body language / expectation of the members of the crowd - how many of the people are straining and craning their heads to see - nothing yet. I really do think this is a picture that is worth a thousand words. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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