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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Thunder (mascot)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 09:05, 16 March 2016 [1].

Thunder (mascot) edit

Nominator(s): Montanabw(talk) 08:21, 24 February 2016 (UTC) User:Atsme[reply]

NOTE: This is a wikicup nomination for Montanabw

This article is about the three rather amazing Arabian horses who have been the live animal mascots for the Denver Broncos. They gallop around on a football field during games with 75,000 screaming fans in the stadium and appear to enjoy the job. (though the latest horse does prefer to wear earplugs for the noise). I started the article couple years ago and now that the Broncos have won the most recent Superbowl, it was time for an update and polish. Hope all reviewers enjoy the story! Montanabw(talk) 08:21, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Gerda edit

I had a brief look and smiled: a sweet topic for a change. I was a bit melancholic seeing who took the video. A few comments, only regarding the prose.

Lead

  • "Thunder III also wears earplugs ..." - to what in "personality" does that "also" refer?
    • Tossed it from the lead, kept it in the body --MTBW
  • "continued to make public appearances; one of which was" - I thought ";" separates independent clauses?
    • Rephased. --MTBW

History

  • I could imagine the history in chronological order, instead of saying when it happened first, and then what led to it.
    • OK, swapped first two sentences (Atsme did suggest that too...so if two people are saying it... meh!) I hope that helped --MTBW

Mascot duties

  • I was surprised to see a link to "gallops", thinking by now we knew what that is, and more surprised to find a link to Canter.
    • We don't have a separate article for gallop, it goes to a dab... probably need to rename the article to "canter and gallop" --MTBW
      • I still think people who read that far don't need any link. ---GA
  • I think bodyguard doesn't need a link.
    • Kind of fun to emphasize, though. The gelding needs protection...  ;-)
  • "amped up" isn't a phrase I know but may be the only one.
    • Hmm. Good point. It means the players are loud, excited, ready to run onto the field and play -- big men with a lot of testosterone. (think amplified--make things bigger and louder) Suggest a less colloquial word for that? --MTBW
      • You do that, not my field ;) ---GA
        • Rephrased to add "with energy and excitement" -- is that better? (the phrase supports a direct quote from the person) --MTBW
  • "Might have to give ol' Thunder an IV after this one." - sorry, I see a Roman number 4 in IV, - no idea how that could be avoided.
    • I know... and it's a direct quote. I did "I.V." . Does that help?
      • yes ---GA
  • "Thunder appears at most home games, but his away games only occur when the Broncos play in the Super Bowl." - not happy with that construction.
    • Yeah, Atsme, you had a different phrasing, and I've redone that so many times I can't "see" it any more -- can you tweak that sentence?
  • people friendly or people-friendly? 2*
    • Hyphenated. -_MTBW

Background

  • I wonder if there's a better heading for the individual people and horses.
    • Ideas?? --MTBW
      • Perhaps two, one for the people, one for the horses? - I usually see Background as the very first para, ---GA
        • I made the individual horses into level 4 headers and made "Horses" Level three. Does that work better? --MTBW
          • Yes. Still not happy with "background", - but why shouldn't background be in the "back" of the article ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:46, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • You may explain that the names Dos and Tres are just numbering.
    • I debated linking the numbers -- they are nicknames, kind of a joke for an English-speaker to use simple Spanish like that... I could unlink?? Thoughts? --MTBW
      • Understand now, fine with me.

That's all for now, enjoyed the ride! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:01, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for acting on my comments, everything is cleared which doesn't have an indent 3 level, and even some of those, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:53, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Everything clear to here. Will give it another read a little later, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:24, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Tigerboy1966 edit

Just a quick look. It may be a personal preference, but I think that a statement in the lede should be expanded in the main article. I spotted that the statements about Miles (the man with the horse's head) and the wearing of ear-plugs are more or less repeated, albeit with a source. Just to point out that in horse racing ear-plugs are used not so much for protection as to stop the horse becoming agitated or upset by crowd noise. Tigerboy1966  08:29, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    • Not much to say about "Miles" -- originally I had it only in the lead with a source, but sources in the lead look funny and lead to "why isn't the rest of the lead sourced?" questions, so that's why it's in twice. I moved it though... I also tossed the earplugs from the lead -- seems to bug people that it's there. The hearing bit is the reason given by his trainer... (hmm, wonder how American Pharoah would do at the Super Bowl? LOL!) . Montanabw(talk) 08:53, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Looks fine to me. The various minor issues have been fixed. Tigerboy1966  08:24, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dr. Blofeld edit

Lede
  • "had appeared at Super Bowl XLVIII and Super Bowl 50. Thunder III had also" -can you avoid repeating "had"?
    • DONE --MTBW
  • He has been flown on airplanes, ridden in elevators, appeared at indoor press conferences, and walked among over 100 banquet tables at fundraisers. " -he has been flown? -I think this warbles a bit for the lede, I'm not sure you need to go into that much detail from the preceding sentence.
      • Rephrased: "He has been flown on airplanes, ridden in elevators, appeared indoors at press conferences and banquets." Better? I kind of liked "he has flown," but someone else thought that anthropomorphized him too much. --MTBW
  • The horses who have served as Thunder have demonstrated a certain trust in their rider and handlers, and were trained to remain calm in situations that would normally frighten most horses, such as being inside football stadiums with thousands of cheering fans, exploding pyrotechnics, loud music, cheerleaders waving pom-poms, skydivers landing on the field, and other spectacles common to National Football League (NFL) games. " -rather long, perhaps a new sentence and handlers?
    • Rephrased it some, trimmed to toss some detail. Better? --MTBW
  • The first Thunder, later named "Thunder, Sr.", was a stallion registered as JB Kobask, a former show horse and original team mascot from 1993 until his retirement in 2004. He continued making community appearances until his death in 2009. Thunder, Sr. was succeeded in 2004 by "Thunder II", an Arabian gelding registered as Winter Solstyce. He had been the personal pleasure riding horse of Magness-Blake. Thunder II retired from mascot duties in early 2014 bu..." should't this come before going into the personality descriptions? Might it not also make sense to simply cover each horse in turn including history and personality and make it concise with going back to them?
    • Fiddled with lead, see what you think, also pinging Atsme to look over revision and see if it's still OK -- --MTBW
      • Fixed the "photographer with ears forward" sentence that made a great dangling participle, tightened and made a few minor tweaks to the lead here and there to maintain consistency. (--that was Atsme)
          • Better now? --MTBW
Mascot
  • "Another unexpected event occurred during Super Bowl XLVIII " -which year was this?
      • 2014. Added. --MTBW
Superbowl
  • "At Super Bowl XLVIII, Thunder led the team onto the field at the start of the game;[36][37] making it the first Super Bowl where he was allowed to do so." -comma needed rather than semi colon here

--Fixed. --MTBW

  • "and after finishing college became a horse trainer, " -and again

--No semicolon there, someone must have fixed it. -MTBW

  • " She has competed at the national level in Arabian and Pinto horse show competition. She is also a horse show judge who has adjudicated national and international events.[1]" -I would merge sentences.

---Hmmm. Competitor and Judge two different jobs. Semicolon?  ;-) --MTBW

  • "Thunder II learned, apparently on his own, that when a person pointed a camera at him, to look attentively at the photographer with his ears forward" -makes you wonder if the Beckhams trained him ;-)

--LOL! --MTBW

  • "He is people friendly and has been described as "social" and "quite the poser".[11] and " -check punctuation again.

---Um, I'm not seeing it. Clarify? (Or just tweak it if it's minor??)

There's a fullstop before "and" rather than a comma Montanabw.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:19, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh! Now I see it. Removed "and" and created sentence properly! Fixed! --MTBW

Not bad, but in places it does read as if the writer has an affection for that horse and horses in general. Some rewording and polishing needed in places I think but this looks on the right track.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:56, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

--Gosh, ya think? ;-) Montanabw(talk) 08:53, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning towards support. It is well written and comprehensive, though in places the tone might be modified a little to avoid seeming too affectionate!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:47, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    • Open to suggestions of places where the tone issue could be modified? Montanabw(talk) 05:35, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was well-loved by fans,[2] and particularly popular with children.[4] T-shirts were sold with Thunder's image, and he was referred to as the "second most popular Bronco" after former quarterback John Elway. "
    • Tightened that a bit. Open to further suggestions for rephrase. --MTBW
  • " Thunder responded to the situation with aplomb; although, Judge remarked "he's running forward and his eyes are happy and bright, but you can tell every time he changes leads, something is going “BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!”[19]"
    • Removed quote and just described behavior. Was pretty remarkable for a horse to run through fire, actually. --MTBW
  • " "Might have to give ol' Thunder an I.V. after this one." Judge said Thunder, age 19 at the time, was actually quite happy because he got to run so much, describing him as "full of spit and vinegar" the next day.[23]"
    • Implied in the article was that the animal rights types thought they were being mean to the horse to let him run, when in reality he seemed to be pumped up because of it. Tightened prose a bit, open to further suggestions. --MTBW
  • "He remained calm and controlled in very intense situations,[20] and Judge believed he had a sixth sense for when to be energetic and "on" for a performance and when to calm down. He was notably gentle around children who wanted to pet him."
    • Horse was a stallion who let a lot of little kids pet him. Not super common in stallions (they can be prone to biting, for one thing). But I tightened it a bit, open to further suggestions --MTBW

Reads as a bit crufty, particularly the middle ones.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:33, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Tightened up most areas, hope it's better. Open to further suggestions as needed. Montanabw(talk) 07:51, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cass edit

I've corrected some minor punctuation errors as I've gone along; things I've been unable to fix I've listed below. Please feel to revert anything you don't agree with. Comments are as follows:

  • "Thunder debuted as team mascot September 12, 1993..." -- requires some attention.
      • Rephased, " Thunder's debut as team mascot was on September 12, 1993..." Better? --MTBW
  • WP:OVERLINK of "horse show" in Thunder Sr. section?
        • Think I got them. --MTBW
  • "He remained calm and controlled in very intense situations, and knew when to be "on" for a performance and when to calm down." -- Why do you invert "on" here?
      • I'm confused what you mean by "invert" -- do you mean the contrast between "on" and "calm down"...? I'll try to fix if I better understand the concern ;-) --MTBW
        • Why does "on" appear in quotes? Who said it? If no one, then I don't feel the sentence benefits from it. CassiantoTalk 22:43, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
              • Ah! It's in scare quotes because it is a colloquialism used by the source. The source quotes Ann Judge saying "He is so bold and dynamic and has a sixth sense as to when he should be ‘on,’ but when he’s around kids, he just drops his head and lets them pet him.” So... I am open to suggestions how to better explain that the horse could mentally shift gears from being all bold and energetic while running down the field and then promptly calm down to be a gentle horse children could pet... within a very short period of time. I credited the word to Ann Judge, does that work? --MTBW
                • What does "on" mean? I think that's the problem here, "on" could mean a number of things. CassiantoTalk 00:05, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
                          • I added "energetic" to the phrase, did that help? (If not, I'm open to suggstions). --MTBW
  • Second para of Thunder II, requires a new noun in place of the pronoun.
    • I made a different change (moved the bit on stabling up to Ann Judge's section) I hope in the process I fixed that problem (?) --MTBW
      • Sorry, my mistake, check the second para of Thunder Sr section. CassiantoTalk 22:45, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
          • Rephrased "The stallion was kicked by a mare in a 1997 breeding accident.." Better? --MTBW
  • Overlink of "horse breeding". CassiantoTalk 22:01, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support – I loved this! Well written, well illustrated, and brilliantly researched. Thunder II especially stole my heart here. CassiantoTalk 08:28, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

spotchecks not done

  • FN5 is a broken link; also, Press Release needn't be capitalized and CSU is a publisher
    • FIXED --MTBW
  • {{reflist}} should use colwidth rather than fixed number of columns
    • FIXED --MTBW
  • Animal Genetics Inc is a publisher not a work
    • The parameter now reads "Website" -- is it just that you don't want it italicized?
  • Date format varies between mdy and dmy - should be consistent
    • Dang, thought I got all of those, which ones did I miss?
      • Most fixed now, but FN45 abbreviates date while other cites don't. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:23, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • Fixed --MTBW
  • FN8 is missing work
    • Was a duplicate ref, fixed--MTBW
  • FN9: Press Release is not an author
    • FIXED --MTBW
  • FN10: source gives FOX31, not FOX3
    • FIXED --MTBW
  • FN13: Broncos are a publisher. Check for other errors of this type throughout
    • Fixed this one, but the parameter in the cite web template reads "website" -- "Publisher" is only used where there is a distinction needed, IMHO. --MTBW
      • |website= is used for online work titles, |publisher= is used for the organizations that create the online works. For example, ESPN is a publisher whereas ESPN Front Row is a work. You usually don't need to include both, but they do have different purposes, and several cites are still using them incorrectly. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:23, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK, I think I got them all, please pinpoint any that you still want changed. --MTBW
          • Fox refs that cite channels rather than shows should use |publisher=, as should FNs 43, 44, and 50. Otherwise this should be good to go. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:55, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN15: why duplicate date? Also, author is first-last here but otherwise last-first throughout other refs
    • FIXED --MTBW
  • FN17: short videos shouldn't be italicized
    • Tell the cite AV media template, it's the title. Suggest a solution? Different template?? --MTBW
      • In this case probably {{cite episode}} would work best, but for YouTube I would recommend just {{cite web}} with |type= set. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:23, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • I fixed the Broncos TV one with the "chapter" parameter. {{cite episode}} didn't work, it insisted on a "series" parameter. Made YouTube into citeweb --MTBW
  • Fn23: doubled surname
    • FIXED --MTBW
  • Fn29: quotations within titles should use single quotes
    • FIXED --MTBW
  • Link for FN33 goes to a different article than the one cited
    • FIXED (that was weird) --MTBW
  • Fn34: author surname is Otis and all words in work title should be capitalized
    • FIXED --MTBW
  • FN39: in FN10 you attributed a similar source to Fox
    • Made consistnt --MTBW
  • Fn47: website names are italicized elsewhere, and what makes this a high-quality reliable source?
    • Fixed formatting. Arlene Magid is probably the leading researcher in the world of Arabian pedigrees, a highly respected source. Also one of the only reliable online sources that explains the asterisk thing. --MTBW
  • Fn54: given link does not go to cited source
    • FIXED (wrong party)--MTBW
  • Be consistent in whether you use Denver Post or The Denver Post
    • FIXED I think (?) --MTBW
  • In External links, you include Vine credit but not YouTube - should either include both or exclude both. And as before, short videos generally aren't italicized.
    • Fixed publisher. Again, the template italicizes "title" parameter. Open to suggestions to fix. --MTBW

Nikkimaria (talk) 03:28, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

      • @Nikkimaria: I think everything is now fixed. The templates for cite video and cite AV media both italicize titles. I am not sure how to fix this problem as it's at the template level. Montanabw(talk) 07:43, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nikkimaria: OK, now I think I have everything, and if not, just pinpoint the problems. I did get my cataracts fixed and now see things much better than I used to, but I've still stared at this article too long to have fresh eyes on it. Montanabw(talk) 06:21, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Go Phightins! edit

Hello everyone, I just wanted to drop by to say that I have received word that Montanabw is having some personal technological issues that necessitate her procuring a new computer, so she may not be back online for a few days. Please be patient; she fully plans to respond to all queries as soon as possible. Go Phightins! 02:54, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wondered why everything got so quiet. 😝 Atsme📞📧 05:43, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I did a touch of minor copyediting. One sentence I think needs revision is "Thunder III is Me N Myshadow, a 2000 Arabian gelding, the third purebred Arabian to serve as team mascot,[9] Ann Judge calls him "Tres",[1] Me N Myshadow is sired by Monarch AH out of a *Gondolier daughter, making him a distant cousin to Winter Solstyce." ... seems to be a run-on. Could you address that? Beyond that, everything looks excellent, and I offer my hearty support based on a prose review. Go Phightins! 01:46, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Go Phightins!, the minor copyedits you mentioned are now complete. Atsme📞📧 01:57, 8 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I"m back. Thanks all, for the fixes in my absence. What more do we need at this point? Montanabw(talk) 07:52, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome back!! Just dropped by to say the Reference section looks mahhh-velous - all neat and orderly. Excellent article - great job, Montanabw! Atsme📞📧 20:14, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well thank YOU also, Atsme, because you did the final polish on the prose that made it all possible. Montanabw(talk) 23:42, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note edit

Image review? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:49, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Ian Rose - apologies but I'm not sure what you're asking. Atsme📞📧 16:41, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
See my talk, we need someone (not us) to check images for copyright status. Often NIkkimaria does this but others can too. Montanabw(talk) 18:41, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • What is a horsehead tunnel?
    • The big plastic (or whatever) fake horse head that's in the image... you have any suggestions for a different caption? And is that a copyright problem? --MTBW
      • "Image review" != "copyright review" - it also checks other issues related to WP:IUP/MOS:IMAGES. In this case, the problem is a confusing caption, particularly given that at the displayed size it is not obvious that the plastic horse head is actually a tunnel entrance. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:19, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why use "Thunder II" in the lead caption but "Winter Solstyce" in the later caption?
    • Because they are in different sections... the lead needs the stage name, the other is in the section showing each individual horse. Is this a copyright issue? --MTBW
  • File:JB_Kobask_aka_Thunder.jpg: not sure how this shows "a flashy and more dynamic horse"? Also, what steps did you take to try to determine the original author?
    • The horse is dead. We can't get more images of him. What is your concern? The image shows what he looks like. His demeanor and looks is a secondary reason. He is a stallion, standing with a prouder stance, with a high arched neck. The image illustrates what Thunder I looks like and is in the section that is about him. The source includes the caption "Former Denver Broncos mascot “Thunder,” JB Kobask (GG Jabask x Kom-Nitah), and Ann Judge Wegener at the Arabian Horse Celebration in Denver, Colorado, in August 2004." No photo credit, it was reprinted here (Same magazine) and I cannot locate the image elsewhere. It shows he looks different from Thunder II and Thunder III, he also was a stallion, and in that image is standing proudly, with an arched neck, very stallion-like in demeanor (particularly compared to Thunder II, who often seems a little . Need more? (Found one more in our sources in the article, that one is credited "AHA Archives" here -- MTBW
      • I understand that the horse is dead, I'm not questioning that. But the FUR claims that the use of a non-free image is necessary to show "a flashy and more dynamic horse", which is not apparent from the image - if "his demeanor and looks is a secondary reason", I would suggest amending the FUR to focus more on the details you describe here. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:19, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:ThunderIII_TD509.ogg: was this recorded live or from a television broadcast? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:45, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • The video was taken by User:PumpkinSky live, when he was actually at the game, he sent me the raw footage, and I did some editing to make the original clip clearer and a bit tighter. I emailed that version back to him and then he uploaded it to commons. Does all this need to be explained at Commons? Montanabw(talk) 22:07, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Okay, that explains the Exif data - perhaps just mention there that the file is an edited version of raw footage. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:19, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria Do you have actual concerns? I hope I clarified your comments with my best guess. Montanabw(talk) 22:29, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria I modified the captions to sync with the prose and to eliminate confusion. Hope that helps. Atsme📞📧 00:25, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria, I modified one of the captions a bit more from Atsme's excellent revisions. I will also modify the commons caption for JB Kobask and the video. Please advise if we need to do more. Montanabw(talk) 22:12, 12 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As mentioned, would also like to see the video description expanded to account for the editing of raw footage - otherwise we should be good to go. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:02, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I did: "file is an edited version of raw footage taken by uploader who was present at the event portrayed in the video". (I rephrased that a bit) Need more? Montanabw(talk) 02:35, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've just moved that into the source field, and this is now good to go on images. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:02, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
YAY! Thank you! Ian Rose, anything else needed for promotion at this point? Montanabw(talk) 20:04, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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