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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 00:00, 11 February 2008.

The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening edit

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Nominating the article because I think it fits the criteria, natch. David Fuchs (talk) 18:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support Very nice article. Although I might say it would be better if it was expanded with more imformation. Nevertheless, great article; I don't know want to say. --Healthykid (talk) 01:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would have liked more info, too, of course; I've been looking for more development info but have been unable to dig up more at the moment. Still, I feel it is as comprehensive as it can be. David Fuchs (talk) 01:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support short but comprehensive(the only section that could be larger is Development) and referenced. Seems enough to become the fourth Zelda game FA. igordebraga ≠ 02:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments.
  • In the "Reception" section, could you cite the numbers given in the reviews box?
  • You could probably certainly expand on reviewers comments a bit a good deal (although a bit would still be OK!)
  • Does the game have a legacy? I'd imagine it does, but I see no coverage of that.
  • "In addition, the player would then be referred to as "THIEF" by the inhabitants of Koholint Island for the remainder of the game." - is the ALL CAPS necessary here (haven't played the game, so dunno...).

Please leave a note on my talk page if you want any more clarification (and support ;)). Cheers, Dihydrogen Monoxide (party) 06:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Odd that this is a Zelda game and there is nothing about the Zelda timeline. Buc (talk) 21:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here are my comments:

  • "IGN rated the title as one of the top 100 games of all time." Why not state the rank specifically? I know it's mentioned in "reception", but why not specifically in the lead also?
  • Remove the external link to the Zelda wiki, as that is just a copy of this article, from the looks of this. I'd also reconsider the Mobygames link—it doesn't seem to offer anything beyond what this article does.
  • "Like all games in the Legend of Zelda series, Link's Awakening is an action-adventure game". Are we forgetting Link's Crossbow Training?
  • "special dungeons". What's that supposed to mean?
  • "The dungeons vary in size and the puzzles needed to beat each one". Maybe it's me, but I can't work out what this is supposed to mean.
    • I've now deciphered its meaning after reading it over another three times, but it still needs rewording because it barely makes sense and is ungrammatical. You don't beat the dungeon. Ashnard Talk Contribs 21:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "special shrine". Again, the word "special" adds nothing to understanding
  • "new game mechanics to the series, for instance allowing the player to jump." This reads awkwardly to me.
  • "This allowed for Link's Awakening". Again, weak and awkward phrasing
  • You use "In addition" throughout the Gameplay section; why not mix it up and cut repetiton by using additionally some times?
  • "The island is also inhabited by strangely aware non player characters who inform". If it breaks the fourth wall, then maybe you could mention it directly instead of implying it. If anything, cut out "strangely aware".
  • Considering it's a relatively short article, I would have thought that it would have a bigger Reception section to balance things out. This is just a suggestion, though.

Overall, a nice article. I especially like the way the plot's been handelled. When my concerns are addressed adequately, I will support. Thanks. Ashnard Talk Contribs 21:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I've fixed all the grammar/prose issues. In the lead, I kept it general because IGN rated the game twice, and it received two different rankings in the 100 list (which is mentioned in reception.) David Fuchs (talk) 22:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support: All my concerns seem to have been addressed. Well done! Ashnard Talk Contribs 15:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I read through the article and have no complaints about it after seeing the changes addressed that Ashnard brought up. --ZeWrestler Talk 18:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong oppose: It's not up to the required professional standards yet. For example:
  • "The title is the fourth official installment in The Legend of Zelda video game series, as well as the first game from the series to appear on a handheld game console."—Surely "The game ..."? Use "and", not "as well as".
  • MOS breach: two, not one quotation mark for "Wind Fish" and the like. Or just the initial caps?
  • What earthly use is the Japanese script in an English-language text? Fine for Japanese WP, but here it just clutters.
  • Ref 16 and others: see MOS on the spacing of ellipsis dots. Ref 14: is that a quote? References need attention.
  • "Game Rankings rates the DX version of Link's Awakening at 92%, based on ten media outlets.[23]"—Based on sales figures for the first ?three months after release? Or what?

Please get someone else to scrutinise the whole text. Tony (talk) 10:19, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: ‘Title’ is a perfectly valid wording and avoids using ‘game’ or the name too many times to redundancy. Japanese script for Japanese games is common and accepted (see Golden Sun and the like.) As to the game quote refs: they follow conventions for in-game text as well (see the Final Fantasy FA’s.) As to your Game Rankings query, I have no idea what you’re trying to say. The score is based on ten reviews. Sales figures have nothing to do with it. As to the other minor things I will fix them. David Fuchs (talk) 17:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
David, when are you planning to work on those issues? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed his grammar/MoS issues; however I have responded to his other concerns and asked for clarification for the others. David Fuchs (talk) 20:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't be so keen to frame these issues as "minor". (I'm the one you refer to as "he" and "his" above.) Together, they add up to a good or a mediocre reading experience. "Ten reviews" is not "ten media outlets", so rather than say you "have no idea" what I'm "trying to say", why don't you clarify the wording, which is clearly faulty. Sales figures were just an example of what it might have meant—who knows? Your justification above of the use of Japanese script does not appear to be substantive; merely resorting to the "it's used elsewhere" line is not going to convince anyone. I'd like to know why you think it's worth cluttering up the text with script that almost no English speaker will derive meaning from. If there are Japanese speakers among our readership (and they're not reading the Japanese WP at the time), I fail to see how it would help them either, having just read the English name. For example, the opening is:

The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (ゼルダの伝説 夢をみる島 Zeruda no Densetsu Yume o Miru Shima?, lit. "The Legend of Zelda: Dreaming Island") is an action-adventure game

Isn't it long and contorted enough without the Japanese script? And why do we need a transliteration as well?

  • MOS breach: 'Zelda Whistle Stop Tour'. See rules on quotation marks. Further down, "delux". Elsewhere, italics for titles. I'm confused.
  • Ref 29, no author mentioned, yet there is one. Are the references all accurate and properly detailed? Tony (talk) 06:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've fixed the MoS issues, but I guess you're not really credible if you're wondering why I have italics for titles. As for the Japanese script, it's a Japanese game, originally released in Japan. Just because "that's not what I call it" doesn't mean we shouldn't have a non-anglo centric world view with our topics. David Fuchs (talk) 12:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rudeness to reviewers isn't going to help. You have not yet engaged with my substantive reasons for raising the Japanese script issue. Nor is the article yet up to standard. Tony (talk) 09:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Regarding the Japanese script, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)#Include alternatives says that "The body of each article, preferably in its first paragraph, should list all common names by which its subject is known. When the native name is written in a non-Latin alphabet this representation should be included along with Latin alphabet transliterations and English alphabet transliterations." I interpret this as supporting the Japanese text, since the video game is of Japanese origin. Pagrashtak 02:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Beyond that, WP:VG's guidelines suggest such a use as well (see here). David Fuchs (talk) 12:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, can't argue with that. However, when I have time, I intend to raise the issue of why the practice of cluttering text with non-Roman script that will mean nothing to readers is condoned. Is it purely as an ornament? Is it to show the reader that the English name is translated from the Japanese (we knew that anyway, didn't we)? Is it to display the author's ability to gather together the script symbols on WP? It's different when a foreign name is cited with roman script, since at least it gives us a vague idea of how the original is pronounced. Not so with Japanese script. You tell me; as I've said, no one has offered substantive, direct reasons for the inclusion. Tony (talk) 06:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's a valid question for (broader) discussion. We compromised at ''The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons'' and ''Oracle of Ages'' by including the foreign titles in a footnote, although this has the unfortunate effect of making it appear that the author is attempting to provide a reference for the title. Pagrashtak 16:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctant oppose - While I had fond memories of this game, I don't feel the article is up to FA standards. The development sections is a bit sparse and there is not information regarding the reception of the game in its country of origin. I also think some sales information would help too, though not a necessity. I realize that finding such information on games this old is difficult, but it is needed to be comprehensive. My two cents. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC))[reply]
The sales info is in there, i just forgot to talk about it outside of the lead. That's rectified. David Fuchs (talk) 00:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see that now, the changes are a good step forward. I also added some content from a Japanese newspaper article, so the "Reception" section is a bit more fleshed out. However, I still the feel the "Development" section does not contain enough information to make the article fully comprehensive. The second development paragraph and "DX version" section are fine, but the first doesn't contain much in regard to the creation and influences of the game. I hope you can find more, because the article is shaping up nicely. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC))[reply]
I think i might have found some good info, but I will be leaving later this afternoon and will be gone most of the weekend, so I will be unable to add them in until Sunday or Monday. David Fuchs (talk) 20:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further rejoinder: I see that the reference to "sales figures" and "media outlets" has been removed, thus addressing my query about the confusion it caused. Yet that didn't stop the nominator from smearing my talk page with:

I'm sorry if I'm snippy, but I still have no fucking clue what you mean by the "sales figures" comment, and you insulted me first, how about you clarify and stop throwing stones in your glass house.

I don't quite see where I was rude to you "first" here. But I certainly see your rudeness, thrust in my face. It's unacceptable. If your parents didn't teach you, I need to say now that it's impolite to use "his" and "him" rather than someone's name in such a context. You've said of me that "you're not really credible if you're wondering why I have italics for titles"—nice. In fact, I was critical of the inconsistency in formatting, not of the use per se of italics for that purpose. While we're on that issue: "The Greatest 200 Videogames of Their Time,"—Read MOS on final punctuation, which should precede the closing quotation marks where the quote begins within a WP sentence. There are many breaches of this. And then there's the apparent falsification of sources; take Ref 14, which talks of a "simple narrative", which you've used to support your own assertion that "Although the plot of Zelda is simplistic by today's standards", which is quite a different matter. How many other references are dodgy? "then-Nintendo of America president Minoru Arakawa"—clumsy. And "In it, a wiry-haired, nerdy guy (John Kassir) walks through the dark making goofy noises, yelling out the names of some enemies from the game,"—full of what we call interpersonal epithets, i.e., those that express your attitude rather than fact. Fails 1a and 1c. Tony (talk) 07:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

None of those text strings you mentioned above appear in the article, the Ref you are talking about is not being used to justify a simple narrative, and there is nothing about anything you just mentioned. Are you reading the correct article? David Fuchs (talk) 00:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tony, I think you were looking at The Legend of Zelda instead of The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening. I'd appreciate it if you could double-check and update the above. Pagrashtak 16:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. The lede delves very little into the plot, in fact just 33 words. I'd like if the second paragraph went further into the overall plot of the game, seeing as the lede should summarize the article. The Wikilinks need to be checked, as I noticed a few that did not go where they should have; in the development section, Crosscountry redirects to a UK rail line, despite the sentence saying it was a North American tour, and Whistle Stop links to a 1946 movie. when a player loses all heart - that's awkward. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose, prose/sourcing/MoS issues:
    • Image:Linksawakening-overworld.png and Image:Marin link co.png do not have sources listed, and the rationales do not include all the required elements. See Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline, Necessary Components heading.
    • "Link's Awakening is one of the few Zelda games that does not..." Earlier in the lead you said this is the fourth game, and this sentence says it is one of the "few" that does not feature various things. A few usually means four or more.. so I'm confused.
    • Wikilinking throughout is a mess. Some examples:
      • You wikilink "instruments" in the lead, taking the reader to a disambig page. I was expecting an article explaining instruments in the context of this article.
      • In the Gameplay section, "nightmare" links to a generic article about video game "bosses", requiring a leap of logic for the reader that is not explicitly stated in the article.
      • "Heart container" links to a heading in The Legend of Zelda (series) that.. isn't there.
    • You used single quotes when you mention names of things in the game like 'Wind Fish'. Check WP:PUNC for the correct style on this - I think you should use double quotes unless they are inside another quotation.
    • There are some mentions of in-game characters and places that are not in quotes at all - need consistency.
    • The last para in the lead mixes topics to a confusing result. We went from mentioning the DX release to sales figures for the original game and I had to go over it a couple times to understand that you weren't still talking about only DX. Or were you?
    • I followed the first citation in the Gameplay section, expecting it to support the statement that the subject is "most similar to its predecessor". There are major problems appearing here, and we're not far into the article. First, the source does not even mention A Link to the Past, so it does not support the statement that cites it. This worries me and adds to Tony1's concerns that sources are being applied inaccurately or incorrectly. Second, the connection between the game and its DX version is significantly muddied since this source is a review of the DX version. Should readers assume that Link's Awakening and Link's Awakening DX should be treated as the same game for all intents and purposes? Sources about Link's Awakening DX can reasonably be applied to Link's Awakening without the reader's awareness? I think these are dangerous assumptions to make.
I'm not going to call out further example here - it is clear that someone needs to go through all the sources in the article to make sure they actually support the statements that cite them. Then, the article needs a strategy for discussing Link's Awakening and Link's Awakening DX. I'm sure they don't need their own articles, but you simply cannot assume that something a source says about Link's Awakening DX automatically applies to the older version. For example, if some reviewer gave 'Link's Awakening DX a higher rating, maybe it's because they like the color? The article largely treats the two version as the same, though. Someone also needs to check wikilinks and copyedit the whole article for style issues. --Laser brain (talk) 20:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've clarified the FUR for both images, removed misleading wikilinks, made the use of quotes consistent, and reorganized the flow of the last paragraph so it addresses the DX version after the original's sales figures. Also, I've killed the links that don't go anywhere. As to your worries about citation: as mentioned in the article, the two games are exactly the same except for the color palette and additional features to capitalize on this capability. The other 99% of the game is the same- IGN basically did rate the DX version higher because they "like the color", and it's been mentioned as such in reception. I used the DX references because they still cite the information and were more handy than the original game reviews. I removed the portion about "Link to the Past" because that wasn't supported, and went through again to check the refs, however that was the only issue I found. Tony1 has opposed me for concerns about references not in the article. David Fuchs (talk) 20:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
David, with all due respect (and I do have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who works toward FA status) I think a third party should review the sources. Sometimes the primary author of a work benefits from a fresh pair of eyes. I say this because the second random source I looked up, just now, is also incorrectly applied. The sentence "The game's background music was composed by Yuichi Ozaki, Kazumi Totaka, Minako Hamano, and Kazue Ishikawa." cites a Gametrailers.com video. I watched the whole video. The video mentions the music in the Zelda series as a whole, but it does not mention any of these composer names. In fact, it doesn't even discuss Link's Awakening except to mention that future videos will cover it. --Laser brain (talk) 22:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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