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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Chinese Restaurant/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 16:43, 5 December 2009 [1].

The Chinese Restaurant

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Nominator(s): --Music26/11 20:31, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured article because I think this meets the FA criteria. This is the third Seinfeld season two episode I'm nominating for FAC, both previous episode articles have not been promoted (yet). Mostly because nobody seems interested enough to review them. Hopefully, as this is considered a "classic episode", reviewers will come in greater numbers. Thank you.--Music26/11 20:31, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Technical comments

--an odd name 20:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - The sole image checks out. Awadewit (talk) 04:31, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Why does the plot section begin with "In this landmark episode[...]" ? How is it neutral? (More comments likely to come) The Flash {talk} 03:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • No idea how that got there. I've removed it.--Music26/11 13:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comments:
  • I'd like to see an image for this article's infobox; something like this. With that image, you can have a rationale for "Hong's performance became one of his most famous roles in the United States" or "The plot was believed by NBC to be nonexistent and uninteresting to viewers, which the crew vehemently denied" or even "The very simple and generally nonexistent storyline for the episode was praised by critics, who believed it help define the series' "show about nothing" concept."
  • The fact that you prefer an image in an article like this (a TV episode article that is) is understandable, but I believe other users will critize an image such as the one you propose. The thing is (based on experience with other FACs) most reviewers only think an image is neccesary when whatever the picture depicts can't be explained in words; for instance the image you used on your first FA, you can see in the image what is explained in the caption, in other words, you can see the design of the Electro character. The thing is, the image you propose, as well as any other image, would be considered redundant as it doesn't add anything; we don't have any info regarding the set of the episode or the clothes the characters wore or something like that. That's why I believe an image will be critized by other reviewers. Sorry for the length ;).--Music26/11 18:58, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't particularly agree with you here, but do understand where you're coming from and have struck the comment. The Flash {talk} 19:04, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't agree with what I point out either. I just hate it if reviewers make a "big thing" about it.--Music26/11 20:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Richard's quote, please decapitalize "restaurant" as it implies he's referring to the episode's title, not the plot.
  • As this article's references show "Inside looks" on the episode are available on the DVD, I'd suggest removing the instance that is wasn't from Seinfeld (season 2).
  • I'm terribly sorry, but I don't have a clue what you are talking about.--Music26/11 18:58, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Throughout the article, a citation used is the DVD feature "Inside Looks - The Chinese Restaurant." On the season 2 page, it is said that the feature is not available for the episode. It doesn't truly pertain to the article itself, but when viewing it one is bound to read the season page, which gives false info on one of the article's sources. Is that a bit clearer? The Flash {talk} 19:04, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ohhh... I get it, sorry that's my fault. Removed.--Music26/11 20:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Michael Mitz portrayed the man who is on the phone when George tries to call Tatiana, Mitz would return[...]" -> "[...]to call Tatiana; Mitz would return[...]"
  • "[...]he is sitting by the door of the restaurant at the beginning of the episode, he is still sitting at the same spot when Jerry, George and Elaine leave." -> "[...]the beginning of the episode and is later still[...]"

Support: My issues have been taken care of; I believe the article now meets FA criteria. The Flash {talk} 21:56, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Sources fine. Great little article. Nicely researched and written. RB88 (T) 23:07, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support its very nicely done, also remember to review my FLC Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Family Guy cast members/archive1--Pedro J. the rookie 16:24, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note; involved reviewers should indicate so i their declarations; Pedro J. passed this artilce at GA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Sorry, but the prose doesn't meet 1a standards. Please solicit a copyeditor for assistance. Here are some example problems from the lead and the Plot section. Sasata (talk) 05:18, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Unable to get a table they hang around and talk" Is idiomatic English considered good prose for an encyclopedia?
Loiter? Sasata (talk) 20:33, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Do you have a suggestion how I could change it?--Music26/11 15:20, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...George tries to use the phone that is constantly occupied..." is a phone occupied? (changed)
  • "It was not until David treatened to quit" typo (fixed)
  • "Television critics reacted positively to the episode, which went on to become one of the show's first classic episodes; in 1998, a South Florida Sun-Sentinel critic wrote that the episode, along with the season four episode..." Did anyone notice this sentence has the word "episode" four times? (cut down to two)
  • "Jerry, George and Elaine decide to get dinner without reservations..." Needs rephrasing, as the phrase "without reservation" has a meaning that is not the one intended here. (done)
  • Chinese restaurant is a dab (I delinked it - so generic as to be of little use I think)
  • "George is nervous about his girlfriend Tatiana, whom he left during sexual intercourse because he needed to use the washroom due to an upset stomach and worried that the size of her apartment did not allow for him to have enough privacy to avoid making it obvious as to what he was doing in the washroom." This run-on monster sentence needs help. (reverted back to old plot)
  • "...but a man (Michael Mitz) occupies the phone" again the phone becomes "occupied" (fixed)
  • "Jerry notices a woman (Judy Kain) whom he recognizes," whom should be who, but why not just leave the word out? (good idea. done)
  • "Elaine approaches a table and tells them her friends would give her $50 to eat one of their egg rolls and she was willing to give them $25 of it." The first "them" in this sentence has not been clarified; "she was willing" verb tense is not consistent with the rest of the section. (done tense) (explained 'them')
  • "When he is finally able to call Tatiana, he gets her answering machine" how does he "get" it (i.e. it's idiomatic) (better now?)
  • "Jerry remembers she's his uncle's receptionist." contractions are to be avoided (done)
  • "Realizing his cover is blown" idiomatic (to has been caught out)
    • Do you have a suggestion how I could change it?--Music26/11 15:20, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Realizing his lie will be exposed" ? Sasata (talk) 20:33, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In his explanation, Jerry makes a reference to the Bermuda Triangle stating: "Unfortunately nobody ever disappears!". Haven't given enough context for readers to appreciate why this quote is humorous. (reverted back to old plot)
  • "Jerry, George and Elaine both agree to leave." Both implies two. (done)

(ec) Ok, I'm striking my oppose as these two sections read much better now, and the remaining two aren't as problematic. The overall prose still doesn't qualify as brilliant or professional (imho of course), hence my reluctance to support. Sasata (talk) 20:33, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are free to do whatever you want, and I respect your opinion ;). The two remaining issues have been fixed, thanks for striking the oppose.--Music26/11 12:02, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments good timing Sasata, I'd just done some copyediting and considered some of the same issues. Strike out if I do some :)
As well as the prose, I wonder about comprehensiveness - the show about nothing theme, did David cite any influences? Also interesting comparing this sort of story with various curb your enthusiasm episodes...Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:26, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you can find any sources, be my guest.--Music26/11 15:20, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you have looked and didn't find anything else, I am satisfied, as I wouldn't know where to start. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:47, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I did not find anything to expand the production section, there were a few reviews (mostly just pass-on mentions as an example of the show's format), but I did not add them as I felt the section is fine as it is now. I'll see if I can find some comparisons between the ep and CYE, though I wouldn't know where to put it.--Music26/11 19:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It'd sorta be a legacy-type thing, so maybe at the end (?). Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:15, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overall...wavering on supporting - it's okay, I massaged the prose a fair bit and nothing stands out as a drop-dead deal-breaker. Some extra context might be helpful but not a deal-breaker if none exists. Interesting read. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:39, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Could not find any sources comparing this episode to CYE on NewsBank, the reception section could be changed to "Reception and legacy" if you happen to find any. Thanks for your conditional support.--Music26/11 18:59, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Needs copy-editing Just a brief scan-through of the article revealed something almost immediately to me—the word "episode" is used an astonishingly large number of times. 42 to be exact—7 in the lead, 22 in Production, and 13 in Reception (this excluding the infobox and references). Please audit throughout the article for oft-repeated words and redundancy.—indopug (talk) 19:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Decreased. The word is still used in the article, if you have any ideas to replace the words, be my guest. Also, finding a copy-editor is quite hard (in my opinion), I frequently contact participants at he GOCE, but rarely get a reply and I find listing the article usually takes too much time for FAc.--Music26/11 17:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by karanacs on prose and comprehensiveness grounds.

  • Tatiana calls back, but the maitre d' calls "Cartwright" instead of "Costanza". - these two halves of the sentence don't appear to go together....I think we are missing a tidbit somewhere
  • The plot section really ought to repeat the wikilinking and full names of the main characters and include the names of the actors (not everyone reads the lead)
  • Linked, excluded last names of characters as I feel they are not necessary.--Music26/11 17:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The prose needs work.
    • Be more specific please.--Music26/11 17:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are significant grammer issues - missing words, misspelled words/wrong tense, punctuation problems. I fixed a few of these in the lead but see them throughout the article.
      • I have no problem with you saying this, but if you fixed the issues you saw, why didn't you fix the one that are left? I mean, if you say there are more, where are they?--Music26/11 17:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • There's a lot of repetition. Examples: directed by Tom Cherones, who directed all of season two's episodes. and As the episode took place in only one location, it took less time than other episodes to be filmed.[5] Cast members have remarked that the filming was shorter than on any other episode, as it took roughly half of the time it usually took.
      • Changed the Cast thing, not sure how to change the Cherones thing, or what the exact problem is.--Music26/11 17:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the original draft the three friends also discussed how to prevent the events in the future - what events?
  • David's voice can be heard - this is right after a sentence about David Tress, so I'm confused as whether this means him or Larry David.
  • Have you exhausted scholarly sources rather than just newspapers? The following may be useful [2] [3] [4]
    • These sources aren't very helpful.--Music26/11 17:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The episode is also discussed in this book [5] and this book [6] discusses the theme of Seinfeld characters being confined someplace

Karanacs (talk) 17:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I do not have access to the first source (as I am editing from the netherlands), and the second book doesn't contain enough info to start a "theme" section.--Music26/11 17:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The prose issues I've listed are only examples of problems I see throughout the article. I had intended to fix them until I saw that is was pervasive. I strongly encourage you to find an independent copyeditor. Also, please specify why the sources aren't useful? Have you been able to access them in full? Karanacs (talk) 22:03, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have to go now, but just informing you that I've sent two copy-editors a message.--Music26/11 16:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alright, two copy-editors have done their on the article. Second, I'm not sure of the first source because I think there's some kind of accesslink I'm missing, but the other two sources simply do not contain enough information.--Music26/11 05:30, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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