Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Saint Fin Barre's Cathedral/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 12:24, 26 November 2017 [1].

---

Saint Fin Barre's Cathedral

Nominator(s): Ceoil (talk) 21:53, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Gothic Revival cathedral in Cork city, Ireland. The site dates back to the 7th century and can be linked to one of the county's other major place of historical interest, Gougane Barra. Significant input and guidance from KJP1, Guliolopez, Kafka Liz, and Lingzhi who all made this a most rewarding project. Special thanks to Liz who took many photographs, and walked with me several times around and through the building, explaining architectural concepts and how to describe various features. A most helpful PR can be found here. Ceoil (talk) 21:53, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

SupportComments from Tim riley

I shall certainly be supporting the promotion of this article to FA, but first I have a few small drafting points to raise.

• Lead
  • "Its demolition and re-building was commissioned" – two nouns but a singular verb. In passing, there should be no hyphen in "rebuilding" according to the OED, Chambers and Collins.
  • "renowned Victorian architect" – a touch of the peacock about the adjective. (I personally think "infamous" would be more to the point, but that's neither here nor there, and I only say it to annoy KJP1 when he looks in.)
  • "Caped" – I'm not well up in architectural terms, and perhaps "caped" is right, but it occurred to me on reading it that perhaps "capped" was meant.
  • "Modeled" – I ran the text through Microsoft's spell-checker with "English (Ireland)" selected, and as in BrE (unlike AmE) this should be "modelled" (and indeed we have "modelling" later on).
• Medieval and 18th century churches
  • "an old tower ten or twelve in circumference" – is there a word missing here?
  • "re-discovered" – as with "rebuilding", the three dictionaries I use don't hyphenate this word.
• 19th-century build
  • "Burges partially alleviated ... Burges realised" – I might make the second "Burges" just "He" to help the flow of the prose.
  • "decoration of the West front" – not capitalised in mid-sentence elsewhere in the main text.
  • caption: "the Last Judgement is above him" – in view of the capitalisation here, I wonder if "resurrection" at the very end of the lead should also be capitalised?
  • "Burges took 10%" – I think the Manual of Style asks us to write "per cent" (BrE) or "percent" (AmE) rather than "%" in the body of the text.
• Architecture
  • "re-used" – another hyphen the OED et al don't use.
  • "thus exhaustive to fund" – rather an unexpected adjective. Perhaps "expensive"?
  • "Cork Builder John Delaney" – should "Builder" be "builder"? And he was spelt "Delany" earlier in the article.
  • "around 844 sculpture" – "sculptures", I imagine.
  • "lead to the cathedral's unity of style" – "led"?
  • "and, at St Fin Barre's..." – you ought, I think, to be consistent within the article about whether you put a full stop after "St" or not. These days BrE usually doesn't and AmE does.
• Sculpture
  • "the most ascetically dramatic" – I wonder if "ascetic" (rigorously self-disciplined; severely abstinent, austere) has got itself mixed with "aesthetic" (relating to the perception, appreciation, or criticism of that which is beautiful)?
• Graveyard
  • "archbishop bishop" looks strange.
• Interior
  • "...Bishop's throne" – but "...bishop's throne" in the next para.
• Stained glass
  • "oversaw every stages" – singular "stage" wanted here, I think.
  • "As elsewhere in the cathedral..." – the sentence goes haywire and needs attention. Indeed, it seems pretty much to duplicate the previous sentence, and perhaps shouldn't be there at all.
  • "illustrations can be divided between the divine, wise and foolish" – this too is given twice.
    • Another editor has boldly dealt with these two points. Tim riley talk 20:48, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
• Pipe organ
  • Saint Andrews's day" – "St Andrew's".
  • "avoid its interfere" – "interference"?
  • "expand the kit" – unless it is a technical expression in the vocabulary of organ builders "kit" seems a little too informal for encyclopaedic use, I think.

Those are my few quibbles, except for one concluding one: there may have been a techical glitch, but it looks from the article page as though the peer review has not been closed. Be that as it may, I look forward to revisiting and to supporting FA for this excellent article. – Tim riley talk 12:10, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Tim, will be addressing these shortly. Ceoil (talk) 21:33, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Ok, got them all I think Ceoil (talk) 20:03, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

There are still the "Bishop's throne" -v- the "bishop's throne", and I think "aesthetic" would read more smoothly as "aesthetically", but these are minor matters, and I am happy to add my support for promotion to FA. Comprehensive, a pleasure to read, well referenced and beautifully illustrated. The Dean and Chapter, and Wikipedia readers in general, have reason to appreciate this excellent article. – Tim riley talk 22:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Grand altogether Tim. The last two issues now dealt with. Thank you for your typically charmingly stated review. Ceoil (talk) 01:38, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Fin_Barre's_Cathedral_1865.jpg: needs US PD tag, and if author is unknown how do we know they died over 100 years ago? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:16, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Comments and support from Gerda

I watched the article grow and look forward to reading it now again. I should probably comment the lead last, but know already that I'd like more consistency and chronology, for example, after having talked about the ancient site, what does "the previous building" mean. - Detail: when I read "It was once" I thought "twice" ;) - How about "It belonged formerly" or even give a year. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:02, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Finbarr of Cork

• How about talking about his death and shrine after he was born?

19th-century build

• building?
• The image of the entrance looks strange next to the quote, and the long caption about specific saints is not really what I want to read at that point, rather later. Links to the saints might help, but I suggest to move the image.

Exterior

• I find it a bit unusual to have the image of the angel under exterior, but have no solution. Perhaps a change to section layout? I'd like to read layout before individual sculpture. Seperate exterior and interior sculpture?

Plan ...

• link Bishop's throne to Cathedra?

The end comes soon, I was curious to know more about the grand opening ;) - I love the many quotes that give a good feeling for the period. I'd wish some images could be larger! Thank you, all who helped! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:42, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi Gerda, yes have been struggling with cramming in images!! Will look at your suggestions in next day or too....Ceoil (talk) 21:33, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I saw a great way for galleries here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:42, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes. I'm thinking through your comments about re image placement, and tinkering around. A gallery at the foot does seem like a good idea. Ceoil (talk) 20:11, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

You secretly solved all the of the above, thank you, support. I'd think one exterior view from the south would be enough ;)

Ha, thanks! Have now also removed one of the south facing exteriors. Ceoil (talk) 19:56, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Sources review

I have a few nitpicks on formatting:

• Ref 28: For consistency with other online sources, the publisher should be rendered as "Irish Times" rather than as the website name.
• You use two different formats for retrieval dates, one in the "Notes" section and another in the "Sources" section
• With the book sources there is inconsistency in including publisher locations – generally you do, but sometimes (e.g. Bracken, Caulfield and maybe others) you don't.
• Bracken shows publisher as "Four Courts", Lawrence shows "Four Courts Press"
• Where the source originates in print media, e.g. Irish Times, Irish Independent etc, these names should be italicized

While in general the sources seem to be of appropriate quality and reliability, I'm a little dubious about Dier. The material is well presented, but the blog is not obviously subject to editorial or other supervision by an institution. Does it meet our criteria for reliability? No other issues. Brianboulton (talk) 15:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi Brian, will see about replacing Dier. Ceoil (talk) 21:33, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Update....have met most of the points..almost there, looking to replace Dier; its not a grand claim. Ceoil (talk) 00:40, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Have replaced Dier. Ceoil (talk) 00:12, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Comments Support from Cas Liber

A fine read with a few quibbles...

• Burges designed the majority of the interior - why not just, "Burges designed most of the interior"

• By 2010 the organ's electrics were failing and became unreliable. - needs pluperfect tense...how about, "By 2010 the organ's failing electrics had become unreliable." (or maybe leave "failing" out altogether?)

• Anything on its surrounds...?

There should be...digging around. Ceoil (talk) 00:12, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Not ignoring this Cas; should be able to add something today. Ceoil (talk) 20:14, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

If there ain't anything reliably published then so be it. It's as comprehensive as can be so support on that and prose grounds...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:14, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Support Comments from KJP1

Absolutely delighted to see what was a weak, but important, article so vastly improved. All credit to you. Sorry for the delay in getting to it, but I've been away. I made most of my comments at PR, so it shall certainly be a support, but I'm sure I'll find a few things to quibble over! Will have my comments done and my support registered by the end of the weekend. KJP1 (talk) 16:25, 3 November 2017 (UTC) OK, here, we go:

Lead

• "and resulted in the first major commission of the Victorian architect William Burges," - perhaps, "and resulted in the first major commission for the Victorian architect William Burges,.."

History - Finbarr of Cork

• "The church grounds are located south of the River Lee on Holy Island" - you've already linked River Lee in the lead.
• "each dedicated to Finbarr of Cork, patron saint of Cork city," - and Finbarr.

History - 19th century building

• The quotebox has Burges as Bruges - how many times have I made that typo!
• "and McLeod £5,153 for the carving." - as it's the first time we've met McLeod, should we have his full name?
• "Saint Fin Barre's is described by Lawrence and Wilson" - again I wonder if we should give them their full names at first meeting, and perhaps an introduction, "the architectural historians David Lawrence..."?
• "which posterity may regard as a monument to the Almighty's praise" - link Almighty, for non-English speakers, or is it sufficiently obvious?

History - 20th and 21st centuries

• "In 2006, David Lawrence and Ann Wilson published..." - if you've already introduced them see above, they could now be Lawrence and Wilson.
• The photo entitled "View of the south face" creates a huge white space to the left for me. Is it so helpful, it's essential?

Architecture

• The style is described here as Early French Gothic, which it is. In the infobox, the style is given as Gothic Revival, which it also is. Does it matter? Will it confuse?
• "Each of the three spires support a Celtic cross,.." - should this be "Each of the three spires supports a Celtic cross,", matching the "Each"? Tim's your man although, after his "infamous architect" crack, we're no longer on speaking terms so you'll have to ask him yourself.

• Yes, it should be "supports". I missed that in my review, mea culpa. Delighted to have offended KJP1, and looking forward to his retaliation somewhere soon. Tim riley talk 20:48, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Sculpture

• "the twelve Apostles bearing instruments from their martyrdom" - perhaps, "the twelve Apostles bearing instruments of their martyrdom."
• "It was designed by Burges and erected in 1870 free of charge as his gift to the city, in recognition of Cork's willingness to fund his original design, and positioned the sculpture in place of an intended wrought-iron cross." - I don't think this sentence quite works. Perhaps if you removed "the sculpture" to read "It was designed by Burges and erected in 1870 free of charge as his gift to the city, in recognition of Cork's willingness to fund his original design, and positioned in place of an intended wrought-iron cross."
• "George Webster, rejected the use images of the naked human body" - "George Webster, rejected the use of images of the naked human body..."

Interior - Main features

• "The font's bowl is of Cork red marble,[45] is 6 inches wide, and supported by a stem, also red marble, and by green marble shafts, resting on a white marble shaft of sculpted capitals and an octagonal base." - Two queries. "6 inches wide" sounds rather small. You could fit a baby's head in, at a pinch, but are we sure the figure's right. The "green marble shafts, resting on a white marble shaft". Shafts on a shaft? How does that work? I can't find any pictures.

Pipe organ

• While lamenting the loss of the immortal phrase, "It...can safely be described as one of the truly great organs of Europe", I think you were right to let it go.

Ahem, yes :) Have incorporated all these very good suggestions; many thanks. Ceoil (talk) 23:54, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Indeed you have. It's a fine piece of work, a great read and I'm very pleased to Support. KJP1 (talk) 07:07, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your help and additions throughout. Ceoil (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support. Slightly late to the party after taking part in the PR. Excellent article and fulfils the FA criteria. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:24, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Coordinator comment: This is looking like it is almost ready for promotion. I'd just like to check if Ceoil had had a chance to address the comments of Gerda Arendt and Casliber? Sarastro1 (talk) 22:13, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Closing comment: I removed a few duplinks; possibly some may merit inclusion and anyone can revert if they think it is necessary. I also note that one image has alt text but the others don't. I think it is better one or the other rather than a mix; while alt text is not an explicit requirement at FA, I always feel that we should demonstrate best practice. But it is not worth delaying promotion over this issue. Sarastro1 (talk) 12:24, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Sarastro1 (talk) 12:24, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.