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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Montana class battleship

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:37, 13 June 2008 [1].

Montana class battleship edit

Self Nomination I'm nominating this article for featured article because it meets all established FA criteria and has passed both the Good Article review process and the Military History Wikiproject's A-class review process with no major complaints. At this point, there is no place left to go but up to FA-class, and so here I here am. This is most decidedly a self nom, and for once I am not in school, so I should be able to adress complaints raised in a timely manner. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Spectacular Article. Absolutely no objections coming from this corner. Excellent Work! Cheers! Cam (Chat) 04:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Prose/citation problems.

— Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 12:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Respectively:
    • Alright then, I presume you wisha stict adherence to the rule that commas ought to appear only for combined sentences and only if the woirds "and" "or" "but" are present, or if the sentence in question uses a three list thing that needs to be seperated using commas. I'll make a dry pass through and see if I can spot and fix any instances, but the best thing, as you noted in point 2, would be to bring it up with one of the three copyeditting departments: the peer review group, the league of copyediters, or the MILHIST logistics dept.
    • as per above
    • Please locate all such examples for me if you would, at this point I miss such things if they are not explicitly poiinted out to me. Sorry for forcing that on you, but as I am sure you can related one's mind tends to read whats should be there and not what is actually there.
      • As it happens, in these specific cases, the access date was already provided. I had messpelled the word code as "accessesdate", thats why they were not showing. Good catch though :) TomStar81 (Talk) 23:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I noticed ref 10 is missing publisher info. There might be others, so please go through all the references and look for any missing information. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 08:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • By citiations, do you mean the notes section? And if so the reason for the repeated linking is to limit the amount of scrolling new readers to the article have to do to find the relevent links. I think its helpfull, but if consensus from others suggests otherwise I will fix the problem.
      • Yes, see WP:MOS, which explains overlinking. I generally think it is best to avoid linking too much whenever possible. I'm not sure about you, but the entire References section fits on my screen with only very little scrolling required to see the last bit of it. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 08:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • The MoS directive as it pertains to overlinking: "The same link multiple times, because redundant links clutter up the page and make future maintenance harder. It is not uncommon to repeat a link that had last appeared much earlier in the article, but there is hardly ever a reason to link the same term twice in the same section. (Table entries are an exception to this; in general each row of a table should be able to stand on its own)." I have usually interpreted this to mean that section exclusive terms or terminology that was repeated before but may have been skipped ought to be relinked every time a new section crops up (by new section, I mean a header with two equal signs on each side). This is a hold over from the Iowa class battleship article, as I instituted the policy there becuase the article continues to grow, and it can be mighty difficult to locate one linked term near the start of an article whose entire space is, as of this righting, 96kbs. Now, I grant that the Iowa class battleships are the exception and not the rule, but by the same token they are the only featured class article for ships, so we are trailblazing here since this is untouched territory, but I still think the article could grow and am thus reluctent to unlink terms now only to have to relink them later on (if, I grant you, the need to do so does in fact arise). The key issue now is how you interpret the guideline and whether or not your interpretation follows mine. How do feel about the issue? TomStar81 (Talk) 09:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'm hesitant to put words into another editor's mouth, but I think Wackymacs meant in the case of the "Ships" section with multiple refs to DANFS and the NVR, all linked, all one after the other. I think I've addressed this for that section, with only the first instance to each source linked and the others plain text. — Bellhalla (talk) 13:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • How exactly do mean? Obviously short speaks for itself, but if you were me what would you like to see done with the section?
      • I would try to merge the shorter section with the longer ones by changing the general layout/section header names. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 08:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I suppose we could merge the information there into the design section, it wouldn;t be hard to do. Alternatively, I could omit/delete the section altogather. Would those be acceptable solutions? TomStar81 (Talk) 09:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I suppose I could agree with that, though truth be told I like to see them seperated. Its just a me thing, asthetics and such; I dislike changing formating too much (this same format is used on the page Iowa class battleship, and hasn't drawn any compliants...yet).
    • With regard to the sources you brought up: pages from navweapons.com include at the bottom a list of sources used in the creation of the articles, and nearly all are from well recognized names like the US Bureoa of Ordinance. That ought to make the site's information reliable. Information from the site navybuddies.com is almost always pulled directly out of the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships, and the infomration provided on the site corrosponds almost letter for letter with the US Navy's description of the Montna class. That doesn't suprise me since the site is billed as an unofficial US navy site, if others were to build such a site they would naturally turn to DANFS and other similarly open public sources to create the pages needed. Lastly, the site www.warships1.com/US/BB61stats/index-BB1-GAO4.htm is directed toward a report generated by the United States General Accounting Office, the official investigative arm of the United States Congress. The names and information cited there in are directly taken from the GAO's investigation into the United States Navy's plan for replacing battleships with the Zumwalt class destroyer. Of all the sources questioned above, this one should be the most obvious in terms of officialiness. The last two sources are www.warships1.com/US/USbb67-Montana.htm and www.voodoo.cz/battleships/usa/montana.html, and these are, as you surmized, closer to personal websites than the others here to for adressed, however, when dealing with ships and thier classes I need to note right now that most of the information provided for such sites originates from official sources and is merely copied by all other websites, official and unofficial. These two here were included becuase the information they provided during the initial brainstorm phase help the development of the armement sections and (to a degree) the engineering plant section. These two can be removed or better still replaced should the need to do so arise, however the instructions such as I interpret them are to include all the sources used, regardless of how small or irrelevent the source. Thats why they are still in the article. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • It is always best when you have access to the original sources themselves. Sure, US Bureoa of Ordinance is reliable, but navweapons is not. There needs to be some sort of recognition or reputation for a source to be classed as 'reliable' - can that be said for all those sites which simply grab information from places like United States General Accounting Office and so on. And then comes the issue of copyright violation - do these sites have permission to copy from those sources? Replace them with the original sources, as I am sure they are accessible. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 08:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Alright then, I will go digging for the original sources (or alternate sources, if that ends up being the case). As fair warning though, this could take a while, switching out sources or adding/confirming new ones will take at least few days (best case scenario), so make sure to check back regularly to see if any progress has been made. TomStar81 (Talk) 09:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • To respond to the question about the reliability of the http://www.navweaps.com/ website: The page cited in Montana class battleship, http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm, has a list of sources consulted at the bottom of that page. — Bellhalla (talk) 12:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The long caption on the last image is obstructing the 2 column references list at higher resolutions (I'm on 1440 x 900)
    • I added the {{-}} template to the end of the paragraph, this should fix the problem.
  • No references given for "By the time of the Two Ocean Navy bill, the Navy realized that the ship designs could no longer be limited by the Panama Canal and thus approved the Montana-class knowing that the ships would be unable to clear the locks."
    • The result of copyeditting, I'm afraid. I make use of per paragraph citations since it is easier to write individual ship pages with this methode, and as such usually cite the relevent information at the end of a paragraph unless I have a pressing reason to cite in the paragraph. This has been corrected.
  • No references given for these two sentences:"In June 1942, the US Navy Bureau of Aeronautics requested industry proposals for a new seaplane to replace the Kingfisher and Curtiss SO3C Seamew. The new aircraft was required to be able to use landing gear as well as floats."
    • The result of copyeditting, I'm afraid. I make use of per paragraph citations since it is easier to write individual ship pages with this methode, and as such usuall cite the relevent information at the end of a paragraph unless I have a pressing reason to cite in the paragraph. This has been corrected.
  • What makes the following sources reliable? (they look like unverifiable personal sites/web pages)
    • http://www.navweaps.com/
    • http://www.warships1.com/US/BB61stats/index-BB1-GAO4.htm
      • It is the opinion of the cooridinators at MILHIST that navweapons.com is a reliable source, and the as stated above the warships1.com reference is not cited to a personal site or hobby page, it is cited to an investigation conduct by the U.S. Government Accountability Office, and as such meets all established reliable sources critiera.
        • I have replaced the warships1 GAO reference with the report as it appears on the GAO website; however this has resulted in a shift from html to pdf, so the new version may or may not be easier for people to access.
          • Regarding navweaps.com: At the bottom it says "This Website is Owned and Operated by Tony DiGiulian " - it's just a personal/hobby site. I still think this is not a reliable source, certainly not suitable for an encyclopedia. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 18:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 'Aircraft' section seems like an afterthought - is there any way to expand it, or possibly merge it with another section?
    • I will look into it after lunch.
      • I've looked at this problem from a number of different perspectives and come to the conclusion that it can't really be helped. Expanding the section would only add information to a plane that already has its own article on Wikipedia, so summary style comes in to play here, and the material is short so as to keep the uneeded words and phrase out of the prose. It could be expanded, but I doubt that any expanded material would be useful or would withstand any prose trimming within this article itself. On the issue of merging, the material could be merged, but that developes problems with MoS sectioning since information on different subjects is normally split out through the use of section headers which allow for prescion carving of an article to adress major points. From where I sit, the best I could do with merging would be to lose the subsections for the type of aircraft and simply discuss of the aircraft under the heading of aircraft. I am open to suggestions though if you have better idea for merging or for expanding the article.
  • No references given for this paragraph: "The Montana class would have used aircraft for reconnaissance and for gunnery spotting. The type of aircraft used would have depended on when exactly the battleships would have been commissioned, but in all probability they would have used either the Kingfisher or the Seahawk. The aircraft would have been floatplanes launched from catapults on the ship's fantail. They would have landed on the water, taxied to the stern of the ship, and would have been lifted by a crane back to the catapult."
    • I will look into adding references for this after lunch then.
      • Sorry for the long delay in getting back to you on these points, I have been otherwise engaged with preparations for my upcoming time in summer school, and have of nessicity cut back a little on Wikipedia time as a result. As of this reply I have been unable to locate any sources that explicitly state the Montana class was to use aircraft, but the image in the section makes this fact very clear by showing the tail section configured with the crane and model planes which are being stored on the aft deck. Under the circumstances, it may be nessicary for me to switch sources and go looking for the airplane specs and like material rather than relying on USN sources.
        • I think it's dodgy having a paragraph making that sort of statement without a source. Have you had a chance to look for "the airplane specs and like material rather than relying on USN sources. "? — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 08:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Got it; it was in the article had originally used to rewrite the erlier history section. Two cites are now in the article for the aircraft. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Oppose - Leaning to support, just the prose polish needed.

  • I think the prose needs some work in places. I recommend a full copyedit by an editor new to the text. Please see both Peer review/volunteers and LOCE/Members for lists of people who can help. Do not hesitate to contact a few people on their Talk pages!

— Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 10:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • You need to be more specific; I can't adress obtuse comments like this unless I have some idea what you want to see done.
      • I am simply suggesting that you contact one or two people on those lists (perfectly actionable). They will fix redundancy, styling, misuse of commas and other grammatical issues. It is best if you don't do all the editing work yourself, since most of the writing is yours, getting someone new to the text means they will notice problems that you didn't. Copyeditors here usually do a fine job of polishing an article in preparation for the FA standard. A good example is my recent FAC nomination (which was quickly promoted to FA status) - copyedits were made by four editors (five if you include me) and each of them found different things to improve. The same sort of thing here would help greatly, though one full copyedit by one editor new to the text will probably be enough. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 20:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I have left messages with three people -two from peer review and one from the league of extrodinary copyediters- to look at the page. I am going to hold off adressing the remaining complaints for the next 24 hours so as to allow the members to copyedit and rearrange, then adress the complaints. No sense in diving in the content's going to change, ya know? :) TomStar81 (Talk) 22:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Still waiting on the copyedit, not sure why it is taking them so long to get on it. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

}}

  • Support - An excellent read with good prose, layout, images and references. This has improved by masses since the FAC started. Well done! — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 06:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dhatfield

Good work, well cited, but I think references need to include cited works. A quick skim gave me these two points:

  1. The prose is long winded. Example: "They would have been the only US Navy battleship class to have come close to equaling the Empire of Japan's Yamato-class battleships in terms of armor, armament, and tonnage." the phrase 'have come close to equaling' can be replaced by one word: 'rival'. I know from personal experience that this is a pain (I rewrote Tank from 60kB to 37kB) but examine each word and phrase and try and think of a better one. Another example of prose that can be improved: "By July 1943, it was clear that the battleship was no longer the dominant element of sea power and the Montana-class was canceled." can be improved to "By July 1943, it was clear that the battleship had been replaced by the aircraft carrier as the dominant element of sea power and the Montana-class was canceled." By the addition of three words you have increased the number of pieces of information in the sentence from 2 to 3. Even better, "By July 1943, it was clear that the superior capability of the aircraft aircraft carrier to strike at ranges in excess of 30km had rendered the battleship obsolete and the Montana-class was canceled." (Note that the stated range is a guess) Four pieces of information: What supplanted the battleship, why, the battleship was obsolete, the Montana-class was canceled. I recommend reading Tony's Style Guide.
    The information has been trimmed by several people who have read through the article, and I am currently waiting for the editers I contacted to attempt a copyedit which I believe will reduce the prose even further.
    Much improved, but "Design" needs work. For example: "By returning the Montana-class to the slower 28-knot (52 km/h) maximum speed of the North Carolina and South Dakota classes, naval architects were able to include more desirable traits for the Montanas which had been engineered out of the earlier two classes of US battleships." Desirable - POV. I'd put the 25% better... spec up front (clearly the key design criterion), explain how it was to be achieved, then explain what compromises would have to be made in speed due to engines & weight. You may want to point out the importance of matching the speed of other designs (fleet movement) Dhatfield (talk) 07:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Roger, wilco :) Thanks for returning, I apreciate the added comments. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I rearranged the two paragraphs so that the design traits are discussed before the speed. Is this better?
  2. Inconsistent use of 'would have' and 'could be'. Pick a tense and stick to it. Dhatfield (talk) 10:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe I have caught and corrected all instance of this, so it should no longer be an issue.
    Done Dhatfield (talk) 07:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

}}

  • Support. Ditto Wackymacs comments, good work. Dhatfield (talk) 13:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • I see that Wackymacs got a few of the sites I would have questioned (thanks Wacky!)
  • What makes the following reliable sources?
    • http://www.bismarck-class.dk/
      • This one, if clicked on as it was included in the article, shows images taken by submersible of the battleship Bismark without her turrets, and is intended to show the empty barbetts to which the guns would have been installed. The images there are of questionable copyright status, and I am therefore reluctant to upload them to WIkipedia since our fair use policy has gotten a hell of a lot stricter as of late. If it would make you feel better, I could try locating information on this subject from somewhere else, but if you want me to do that I need to have a clear answer here.
Hm, if we think that site might be a copyright violation, we shouldn't be linking to it. Probably better to find another source. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The disclaimer on the cited page from the http://www.bismarck-class.dk/ website reads as follows:

::::::These photographs have been exclusively loaned for display here on the Bismarck & Tirpitz website, and are not to be downloaded or republished elsewhere. © All photos are the property of James Cameron, Earthship TV and Discovery Channel.

Also, by a quick look at the website, it seems the website owner/publisher, Jon Asmussen, was a participant in the Cameron/Discovery expedition. From both the disclaimer and the participation in the expedition, I would infer that that website is not in violation of any copyrights as to the photos. — Bellhalla (talk) 12:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I want to make it clear here that I am citing the images, not the text, so the copyright violation such as it were would be the use of fair use images in an otherwise public domain imaged article. TomStar81 (Talk) 04:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm leaving this one out for others to decide on their own. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the web reference and provided a book reference in its place.
So did it get replaced entirely? (It's been a LONG day, my brain cells aren't working that hot, sorry if I'm being dense...) Ealdgyth - Talk 01:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it has been removed in its entirety. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Probably should have a source for the data in footnote 12, the names of the 17 planned ships.
    • Not all of those ships were planned, all the ships up to USS Illinois were completed, Illinois and Kentucky were under construction but not completed, and all five of the Montanas were planned but cancelled. I will see about sourcing this, but me thinks the source may evlove into sources since I think more than one source will be needed.
      • Two sources have been provided for the ships, and the reference itself retooled to include a date from which to start the count. Is this better? TomStar81 (Talk) 09:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • http://www.factplace.com/index.html
      • This has been removed as a source from the article.
    • http://www.de220.com/index.html
      • This has been removed as a source from the article
  • Current ref 3 (CV-59 FORRESTAL class) is lacking a publisher, and shouldn't be in all capitals.
    • This one is fixed, also. (Forgot to note when updating last evening.) — Bellhalla (talk) 12:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is Sea Classics a journal? Who publishes them?
  • Is http://web.mst.edu/~rogersda/american&military_history/World's%20Fastest%20Battleships.pdf a journal article? or a dissertation?
    • I believe this is a journal article, as dissertations as I have seen them tend to be much longer (although as collage student I suspect my idea of dissertation and yours may very)
  • Current ref 28 (USS Wisconsin is numerically the highest...) has two bald URL links in the sourcing. Should be formatted with title, publisher, etc.
  • Current ref 29 is lacking a publisher.
It's one of the questioned sources, so while it now has a publisher, (and thus I've struck the note here) it's still not proven as a reliable source Ealdgyth - Talk 03:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 32 (Underwater photos of the Bismark ...) has just a bare url link in the ref. Needs a title and a publisher and a last access date
I note that the source itself is still being questioned above. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 39 "Ammunition data is taken from ... " should have a page number and other bibliographic information
    • Added proper book citation information. Page numbers still need to be added. — Bellhalla (talk) 03:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current refs 48 and 49 should probably have sources.
    • These I beleive have been removed in there entirety.

}}

I share the concerns mentioned above about sources by Wackymacs. Links checked out okay with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All questionable external links have been removed. TomStar81 (Talk) 09:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(Replies interspersed above. — Bellhalla (talk) 03:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC) )[reply]
  1. I agree with the above comments about references. Hobbyist sites are well, hobbyist sites and though I know they can be very accurate most of the time, anyone could put up a site about the Montana class and make reference to some "official papers" they used.
    All such sites have been removed.
  2. In the Design section you make reference to 18" guns being a part of the Montana class yet in the Armament section you claim that 16" guns were to be used. Are these the guns from the Iowa class or did I miss the explanation about why the 18" guns were no longer planned? Most of the Armament section seems to be speculation about what might have been there had the class actually been built by listing Iowa class weapons.
    • No, actually, I make reference that they were a part of the yamato class design. And the Iowa armement and the Montana armement are identical in all important respects, the only major dofference is that the secondary battery on the former was 5"/38 guns, while the latter had 5"/54 guns. Therefore, would it not stand to reason that a battleship whose main armament would be used for the follup class should share its information?
    Ummm ok. I must have had the crack pipe going.
  3. Again in the Design section, 4th paragraph you explain the differences of the Panama canal sizing but repeat the entire paragraph under the Armor section.
    The former has been removed in favor of the latter.
  4. In the Fate section, in the first sentence you use maxed out. Why was it maxed out? Are you trying to say "reached maximum limits" ? I'm confused. --Brad101 (talk) 02:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes I am, The wording has been changed accordingly.
    Eighteen inch guns were for a while concerned for installation on the Iowa class battleships, but there are no indications that the 18" guns were to be installed on the Montanas. I will fix that forthright. Good catch. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Note 3 is referenced to Navsource but you've mixed in United State Navy and DANFS of which Navsource is neither.
    Actually, Navsource is pulling material from DANFS (or so I interpreted the message on the page to mean that). I will fix it up.
    I think I have adressed this.}}
  1. You're going to need articles on Second Vinson Act, Battleship Design Advisory Board, and Two Ocean Navy. They seem important to the subject of this article. Otherwise you should determine a way to explain Second Vinson Act, Battleship Design Advisory Board, and Two Ocean Navy if there isn't enough information available to start articles.
    As I stated above, I am in the process of looking into reciting the links or varifying the links provided to be accurate. Also, me and MBK004 have been trying for a while now to locate information on the Second Vinson Act and the Two Ocean Navy links you have provided, and so far neither one fo us has managed to find anything about the group (incidentally, this can also be said of Battleship Division 7). I have done some very very preliminary work into finding material for the Battleship Design Advisory Board, but so far nothing has turned up, and I fear this may be another one fo those links that the net can't provided any information on and the library won;t have any records on. Nonetheless, I will try to get something togather for you on these three articles, or failing that, will take you up on your suggestion to better explain the links in the articles. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The more I look into this by reading Carl Vinson and then even trying the Library of Congress online, you've actually explained the Second Vinson Act better than what I could find. You might make use of [2] and [3] to supplement the explanation. If you could find the House Resolution number to the bill, ie: HR. xxxx, rather than the name it may help. There was also a Third Vinson Act. Sam Nunn was related to Carl Vinson; try that.
    Those references are currently in the article. I think the problem may be that the terminology is from pop history and may not reflect the actual name of the legislation. I will continue to investigate.
    Got one: we apparently have an article on the Two-Ocean Navy Act, so I just need articles for the first two now.
    In this reference there is a good explanation of what the Second Vinson Act was all about and it's note 10 in the references. Not enough for an article of course but it would help if you expanded the explanation in this article. SVA was in 1938; not 1939; I corrected it. --Brad (talk) 21:21, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Sigh.. this just gets better by the minute, Your noted source above states: Conservative sentiment and Republican Congressman Carl Vinson when in fact Vinson was a Democrat. I'm going to question that whole pdf as a source since the author couldn't even get his basic facts straight. --Brad (talk) 21:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Alright then, I need to know - now - if this is an official questioning of the source or if this is one of those questioned sources that people are willing to let slide. If its the former, then I will get to work on checking the other guys sources for independent varification of the facts presented.
    I have reservations about the source but I'm not going to hold up the promotion over it. The fact if Vinson was a Democrat or a Republican is irrelevant to this article but the facts in that source should be compared to others and if they primarily agree with each other then fine. --Brad (talk) 15:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • COMMENT I have at this point gotten the message that selected websites here are of questionable value. To simplify the process of which websites need what kind of attention, I ask that those commenting on the questionable websites provide the link below, the problem with it, and your proposed solution to fix the problem (in that order). This will make it easier for me to adress everyones concerns, and in the long run will (hopefully) help other editers who may wish to assist with the FAC. Thanks. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • http://www.warships1.com/US/BB61stats/index-BB1-GAO4.htm
    • Cites a report generated by the United States Government Accountability Office regarding the USN's compliance with the Strom Thurmand National Defense Authorization Act of 1999. The report itself in entirely independent of the website warships1.com (consider checking GOA.gov for clearer link [note infomration may not be present])
  • http://www.warships1.com/US/USbb67-Montana.htm
    • Removed all instances of appearence in the article and cited all relevent information to alternative sources.
  • http://www.navybuddies.com/bb/bb67class.htm
    • Removed all instances of appearence in the article and cited all relevent information to alternative sources.
  • http://www.voodoo.cz/battleships/usa/montana.html
    • Removed all instances of apperence from the article.
  • http://www.navweaps.com/
    • All information on site is from official publications on the weapon design; and reliability has been establish through its use in FACs proir to this one.
  • http://www.factplace.com/index.html
    • Removed all instance of appearence from article and recited all revelent information to more reliable sources.
  • http://www.bismarck-class.dk/
    • Replaced with a book reference.
  • http://www.de220.com/index.html
    • Replaced with a book reference discussing the computer in question.
  • Problems with the prose, there are many instances of comma misuse, grammatical errors, long sentences, and signs of reorganization needed (some short paragraphs).
    • Should have been adressed with copyedit from both Roger Davies and Bellhalla.
  • Needs a copyedit by editor new to text. Please see Wikipedia:Peer_review/volunteers#General_copyediting and Wikipedia:WikiProject League of Copyeditors/Members for lists of editors you can contact for help.
    • Should have been adressed with copyedit from both Roger Davies and Bellhalla.
  • Some citations with a URL are missing an access date, such as current refs 18, 20, 22 and 26.
    • Handled myself.
  • "Engineering plant" section is short and does not flow with the rest of the article.
    • Merged after 48 hour suggestion with no return comments
  • I am nitpicking, but you repeat many links in the citations. For example, "Naval Vessel Register." is linked again and again in several citations. Only really needs to be linked on the first instance, same goes for other linked publisher names.
    • Beleived to have been adressed by Bellhalla
  • Looks like the Further reading link should be in External links, if it should be linked at all.
    • Handeled myself.
  • Inconsistent use of 'would have' and 'could be'.
    • Adressed
  • Current ref 3 (CV-59 FORRESTAL class) is lacking a publisher, and shouldn't be in all capitals.
    • This one is fixed, also. (Forgot to note when updating last evening.) — Bellhalla (talk) 12:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is Sea Classics a journal? Who publishes them?
  • Is http://web.mst.edu/~rogersda/american&military_history/World's%20Fastest%20Battleships.pdf a journal article? or a dissertation?
    • The host site for the article is the Missouri University of Science and Technology, and the paper (to me) reads like a jornal article more that a dissertation (I do believe dissertations are much longer). The author of the paper is a USNR intelligence officer at the University who was MS in enigineering, so either way the paper should meet the criteria for a reliable source.
  • Current ref 28 (USS Wisconsin is numerically the highest...) has two bald URL links in the sourcing. Should be formatted with title, publisher, etc.
  • Current ref 29 is lacking a publisher.
  • Current ref 32 (Underwater photos of the Bismark ...) has just a bare url link in the ref. Needs a title and a publisher and a last access date

03:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

      • Removed as per referencing concerns.
  • Current ref 39 "Ammunition data is taken from ... " should have a page number and other bibliographic information
    • Added proper book citation information. Page numbers still need to be added. — Bellhalla (talk) 03:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current refs 48 and 49 should probably have sources.
    • Section mereged, suggestion implemented
  • In the Design section you make reference to 18" guns being a part of the Montana class
    • No I don't, I said Yamato class. It is true that the USN considered using 18in gins, but nothing ever came of these plans.
  • In the Design section, 4th paragraph you explain the differences of the Panama canal sizing but repeat the entire paragraph under the Armor section.
    • Handled myself
  • In the Fate section, in the first sentence you use maxed out. (clarification)
    • Reworded for clarity
  • Lead, 2nd para: should that really be "tonnages" or should it instead be "displacement"?
    • Got it.
  • Lead, 3rd para: I rephrased last sentence to show that it applied to the four completed Iowa-class ships. If you feel the "of six" needs to be back in there, please restore.
    • Its good.
  • Design, 1st para: De-linked Yamato gun. If the gun was, in fact, rumored to be that exact, specific type of gun, a link is appropriate; otherwise, leave it for the Yamato article.
    • Gotcha.
  • Fate, 1st para: Tonnage? Again, should it be displacement?
    • Believed to have been adressed, will need to check to be sure.
  • Fate, 2nd para: The "unfortunately" comment is a virtual repeat of a sentence in History, 4th para. Probably best to have it only once.
    • Done and done.
  • Ships: All were authorized on the same date and all canceled on the same date, right? Maybe pull that data and place it at the top instead of repeating it five times
    • Complied after no comments were made tot he contrary.
  • Armor, 2nd para: Repeats info given previously. Just remind the reader of the discussion: "Because the US Navy previously limited battleships to fit the Panama Canal…"
    • Handeled myself.
  • Aircraft, 1st para: Does this need a cite?
    • It shouldn't, the Iowa class page doesn't have one, but if you think it right I can add one I suppose (awaiting further input).
      • It now has a cite.
  • Engineering plant: I'm not all that up on the details of ship mechanical systems, but would it really be "four sets of shafts" or just "four shafts"?
    • Elected to merge this into the article body further up until such time as more info becomes avaliable.
  • Probably should have a source for the data in footnote 12, the names of the 17 planned ships.
    • I will see what I can do.
      • Done
  • The prose is long winded
    • Possibly adressed via the copyedit, further feed back needed
      • Assuming that this has been addressed via copyedit, so striking and moving to the adressed column
  • Remove the spaces before the refs
    • Done
  • en dashes required for certain things
    • Working on it, or possbly addressed? (did maralia get this? she may have...)
      • She must've got it, becuase its a hidden comment now.
  • History, 3rd para: Does the last sentence need a cite? Might be questioned at FAC.
  • doublecheck the use of WP:HYPHEN (suspect missing hyphenation on things like: Oerlikon 20 mm anti-aircraft guns)
  • missing publishers on the citations
  • The citations also need a lot of minor but irritating elbow-grease clean up work.
    • HTML does not need to be included in a citation; it's the default.
    • Some citations have p., others don't (need to be consistent).
    • Some of your page ranges (multiple pages) have pp., others have just p. (need to be consistent).
    • There are punctuation issues, sample: " (pdf).
      • All thought to have been adressed by Epbr123's check of the article

}}

  • references need to include cited works
    • Clarification needed
  • Determine a way to explain Second Vinson Act, Battleship Design Advisory Board, and Two Ocean Navy if there isn't enough information available to start articles.
    • Working on it. This could take a while though.
  • Both books in your reference list need publication dates

Comments

  • remove spaces before refs; i.e. "920 ft 6 in (280.6 m) [2]", "121 ft 0 in (36.9 m) [2]", "36 ft 1 in (11.0 m) [2]", per WP:FOOTNOTE
    • I presume by this you mean non-breaking spaces ( )?
      • Never mind, I see what you are driving at: there were spaces in the table between the figures cited and the actual citations. I have fixed these as per your comment, and checked to see that there were no other instances in the article. I did not catch any, but I have been staring at the same material for about seven monthes so I am at this point reading what I wrote instead of whats there, therefore if you spot any other expamples of this problem feel free to bring them to my attention. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • en dashes required for certain things, per WP:DASH; examples: "p. 102-106", "10-40 ×", "3-4 ×", "period (1906-1946) not "
    • Right. I will get on this immediately.

Gary King (talk) 17:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

}} Gary King (talk) 04:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have just copyedited the lead and first two sections, but have to run some errands before it gets too hot to be outside; Tom, please do bug me if I forget to finish tonight. Maralia (talk) 15:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've finished copyediting. Tom, a couple notes for future reference:

  • The form "x-class" (with the hyphen) is an adjectival construct and should never stand alone; conversely, "x class" without the hyphen is a noun.
  • the Tom class would have been awesome;
  • the Tom-class design was the best ever;
  • the Tom-class battleships were never built.
  • This article was strewn with the words 'United States Navy' and 'US Navy'. I think it was probably the result of writing it piecemeal, but just something to be aware of next time: the context is the US Navy, so you needn't specify it every single time the Navy is mentioned.

Some remaining issues:

  • "The exact design and placement of the armor, factors inextricably linked with the ship's stability and performance, is a complex science honed over decades." - this needs tweaking: either it's a plural subject (design and placement...factors), or it's a singular subject (design and placement...is).
    • Changed to the latter suggestion.
  • in the rquote, "it's not just the weight of the shell, its the weight of the shell" - The second 'its' should be 'it's'; I didn't change this as I was unclear whether this is your transcription of a verbal comment (in which case we can just fix it) or if the source was written (in which case we should go with it[']s).
    • Changed per your suggestion
  • You have used the R. L. Minks article in Sea Classics as a reference twice, but the second mention has inferior formatting and less information; please make it as good as the first Minks footnote.
    • I assume you are refering to the link for the comment regarding the Essex class carriers, if so, then this has been changed, if not, please give a number so I can change it.}}
  • RE the footnote to "Bureau of Ships' "Spring Styles" Book": did you go see the actual documents? I'm not sure how to format this footnote (I can't tell exactly what the book title is, and I presume it was published by the Bureau of Ships or the Navy itself rather than the NHC as it appears) but double hyphens are definitely not the way to go.
  • Which number are you refering to? I can't seem to find this one, and cannot comment on it unless I can read it.
  • Currently it's footnote 12. Presuming you are referring to the actual documents in their archives, suggest something like:
Bureau of Ships. "Battleship Preliminary Design Drawings". Spring Styles, 3, 1939–1941. Naval Historical Center archives, lot # S-511.
  • Both books in your reference list need publication dates (at least the year). The ISBN of the first book appears to refer to one by a different publisher than the one you listed. The last book ref says it was published in China, by the Naval Historical Center, which seems...rather unlikely :)
  • "American components, Russian components, all of them made in Tiawan!" --Russian Cosmonaut, Aremageddon :) Beleive me, I too was caught by suprise. Since I can't seem to get these fields filled in correctly, Ill supply the info in its entirety, and you can tell me where to plug it in (or do it yourself, whichever you find to by easier):
The Navy
Rear Admiral W. J. Holland, Jr., USN
Editor-in-Chief
Barnes & Noble Books New York
Naval Historical Foundation
1306 Dahlgren Avanue, S.E.
Washington Navy Yard, D.C. 20374-5055
Phone# (omited)
Fax # (omited)
email (omited)
http://www.navyhistory.org
Copyright 2000 Naval Historical Foundation
This Edition Published by Barnes and Noble, Inc., by arrangement with Hugh Lauter Levin Associates, Inc.
2004 Barnes and Noble Books
M 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
ISBN 0-7607-6218-X
Printed in China
Design: Lori S. Malkin
Project Editer: James O. Muschett
http://www.HLLA.com
  • Okay, I've fixed this book (China doesn't matter, by the way - that's the print location, not the publishing location). Now I need more info on the Visual Encyclopedia. For that ISBN, Amazon lists Collins & Brown (September 1, 2000). Is that the right edition? Maralia (talk) 04:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not sure. The infor for this book is as follows:
      • first produced in 1999 by PRC publishing Ltd, 64 Brewery Road, London N7 9NT, A member of the Chrysalis Group plc. This edition first published in 2001 Reprinted in 2002 Distributed in the US and Canada by: Sterling Publishing Co., Inc. 387 Park Avanue South New York NY 10016 (copyright) 1999 PRC Publishing Ltd. ISBN 1-85585-878-9 Printed and Bound in Taiwan.
  • Please review the external link named 'Thoughts on the battleships of WWII' for appropriateness. It's definitely a self-published site, which is not a dealbreaker for an external link but it should still be subjected to some review for accuracy/relevance. If the link stays, it needs a better title.

Maralia (talk) 16:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • I am not sure if you were here for it, but back in 2005 there was a rather large gunfight on the article Iowa class battleship over competition, and when the dust settled there was a reluctent acceptance of such a section in that article until its March 2007 rewrite, when it was removed in its entirety and this and the other comparison website were added in its place in part to keep the comparison camp happy. I ported these two sites to this article in an attempt to keep a comparison section out of the article. I agree with your assessment of the site, buts its presence here is intended to preempt any edit war by allowing readers to get an offsite opinion (as in, not supported by the facts) on where the Montana class and the Yamato class stand as opposed to turning our article on either battleship class into a forum for general discussion. This is pushing our external link policy a little, but I feel that in the interest of editting peace it may be nessicary to leave this link in. I am open to everyones opinion on this matter, so if you want more information or links to the edit war on the Iowa page I can provide those. I just thought I would explain here why the links are in the article in the first place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TomStar81 (talk • contribs)
  • I didn't actually read through that site, and I'm really unqualified to judge it; if you feel it's worth keeping, I won't argue. I would, however, like the piped text for the link to be improved – give the reader some indication of what they'll get (and from whom) if they click the link. Maralia (talk) 04:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll cruise through it again just to be safe, if I can't find anything relating to the article I will remove the link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TomStar81 (talk • contribs)
  • Comment - images all look good from a copyright standpoint. Kelly hi! 18:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Of course :) All works produced by the USN are PD unless otherwise noted, so there is usually no shortage of free visual info to add to the article. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:09, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Excellent article; very informative reading. Neovu79 (talk) 02:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notes: I see some minor issues before this is ready to promote. Tom, can you please ask someone like Tony1 or Epbr123 to doublecheck the use of WP:HYPHENs? I could be wrong, but I suspect missing hyphenation on things like: Oerlikon 20 mm anti-aircraft guns. Also, there are numerous missing publishers on the citations. The citations also need a lot of minor but irritating elbow-grease clean up work. HTML does not need to be included in a citation; it's the default. Some citations have p., others don't (need to be consistent). Some of your page ranges (multiple pages) have pp., others have just p. (need to be consistent). There are punctuation issues, sample: " (pdf). . IEEE You might ask Epbr123 to read my comments here and run through the entire article, cleaning up citations and checking hyphenation, but you should do a lot of basic citation cleanup first, making citation style consistent and assuring that publishers are listed. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Gotcha. I'm the middle of class at the moment (five minute break since its a two hour, ten minute class), so I am not in a position to do much about it right this exact second, but I intend to head to library after class and will see about getting the ball rolling on fixing these issues then. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think everything's been fixed now. The hyphens were fine, as they aren't needed when units are abbreviated. Epbr123 (talk) 00:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Very good article. I find no reason to oppose. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 04:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, a lot of work still needed. I found issues in almost every sentence just in the lead, indicating a thorough copy-edit by new person is needed.
    • Prose: "Five were approved for construction during World War II but changes in wartime building priorities resulted in their cancellation in favor of the Essex-class aircraft carriers before any Montana-class keels were laid." What is the phrase "... before any Montana-class keels were laid." really doing? Would the meaning change without it?
      • Yes, it would. Cancelled before the keels were laid implies that the class never made it pass the drawing board, while plain old cancelled could imply that ships of this class were under construction when cancelled (like USS Illinois (BB-65) and USS Kentucky (BB-66). Its important, thats why its there.
    • Ship jargon appears without explanation. "Keel" is probably not a general-knowledge term. I don't know many non-sailors who know the difference between armor and armament.
      • This can be fixed by linking the ship jargon words to there related articles here (assuming they have one, and most do). You supply the odd words, and I will find the links for them.
        • Sorry, but I will not supply a list of words. Please have someone fresh read through and link all important concepts. --Laser brain (talk) 21:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Let me get this straight: I agree to fic the problem and you dicide not to show me what needs fixed? What am I being measured for here? I'm not a pshykick, I can;t read minds, and others obviously didn't think this was important enough to warrent commenting. Its my nomination, therefore its my responibility to fix the problems, not someone elses. If you won;t work wtih me to solve the problem then how can it be adressed? TomStar81 (Talk) 21:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • FAC is not the place to perform larger-scale fixes and it is not a reviewer's job to make laundry lists of problems. When I review an article, I oppose it if I don't think it's ready and give the nominator a list of example problems. --Laser brain (talk) 23:00, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Then change your oppose to a comment. I have already offered to meet you half way and you have turned that down; if you are not going to work with me on this then changing your opinion is the least you can do. And for the record, the entire article has been a laundry list of things that have needed improvement, and I have endevoured to adress everyone elses concerns, without complaints and in a timely manner to the best of my abilities. I can do the same for you if you will only trust me and supply the words you want to see linked. TomStar81 (Talk) 09:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The linking needs work. You have "aircraft carrier" linked twice in the lead, but not things that people will actually need to look up like "Second Vinson Act"
      • We don;t have an article on the Second Vinson Act. I've been trying to find material for an article on the act for two years now (off and on, not continiously), but haven't located anything on the act.
        • If there is no article, then you need to write about it in this article so people know what you're talking about. --Laser brain (talk) 21:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Prose: "Following the success of carrier combat in both the Battle of Coral Sea and, to a greater extent, the Battle of Midway ..." The word "both" does nothing here.
      • Here the both is meant to single these two specific engagements out, though I concede a point in your favor that the both may not be needed.
    • Prose: "The Montana class was the last US Navy battleship design, though the last US battleships actually commissioned ..." What's the different between "commissioned" and "actually commissioned"? --Laser brain (talk) 15:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nothing ostensibly, unless you count commission in this sense as meaning both "looking into making a new design" and "placing a ship into service with her nation's navy".
Lastly, on the issue of copyediting: this article has been copyedited till the cows come home by a number of different people, and at this point I am having a very hard time convincing myself that another copyedit is in order. Personell from MILHIST and SHIPS have copyeditted the article, Ebpr123 has checked the article and not found anything questionable, SandyGeorgia didn't raise the issue of a copyedit when she commented, and Wackymacs (a copyediters) has review and supported the current version, as have the others who were insistant on having the article copyeditted. Exactly why do feel another copyedit is in order? TomStar81 (Talk) 20:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, my list of sample problems is why I feel a copy-edit is in order. That's why reviewers make the lists. I do empathize, and I see that several editors have come by and make edits, but I don't think the prose meets criterion 1a at all. If I find that many problems just in the lead, I am going to say the article isn't ready to be featured. This, of course, is just my opinion, and the article may be featured regardless. --Laser brain (talk) 21:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tired of reading requests for copyediting, including my own, I had another go at it. Dhatfield (talk) 00:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My logic says that basic terminology should be covered in the battleship article and by the time someone is reading about ships that were never constructed, they'd be quite clued up, but I suppose each article must stand on its own. I'm too tired to find all appropriate links (refs are a killer for copyeditors - ironically, so are links), but here's a list: armor, firepower, gun, anti-aircraft capability, heavily-armed (specifically armed), Panama Canal, ammunition, main (primary) guns and secondary armament / guns, caliber, breech, recoil, air resistance, rangekeeper, radar, fire control, hardened steel, reinforced concrete, shore bombardment, impact, detonation, defoliate, nuclear deterrence, Cold War, nuclear bombs & shells, kilotons, turret, island of the battleship, starboard, port, fleet, gas blow-back recoil system, automatic guns, logistics, hydraulic couple drives (or just hydraulic), gunnery spotting, catapult, taxi, crane, operating ceiling, fall of shot, radio, floatplanes, ditch, landing gear, floats, search and rescue. I know many of these (or similar) are available, I used them in Tank. Dhatfield (talk) 00:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My policy is to re-use links further down in new sections for particularly unfamiliar or important concepts (battleship would be a favourite also recoil is mentioned in many separate places), but that's up to you. If necessary link different phrases to the same article - it's a way to tell the reader they're the same thing (specifically main / primary / secondary guns / armament). Dhatfield (talk) 00:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well done for your tireless efforts and persistence in improving this article. Dhatfield (talk) 00:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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