Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Masako Katsura/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 21:36, 6 July 2010 [1].

Masako Katsura edit

Nominator(s): Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 19:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello all. This is a second nomination. Please see the first. This fell off the FAC page with few substantive comments on the actual text, and all that were made, addressed, with the last comments made the day before the nomination expired. There were only two other issues raised. First, the appropriateness of fair use with respect to two images. Two users commented on this and we disagreed. I'd like others to comment—especially given the lack of real response to my replies on the issue, and the apparent penchant of at least one of those who raised the issue to oppose other nominations (that have been promoted) on this basis alone. The second issue is the lack of a death date. This appears unresolvable (at least at this time). No published source has been found providing the information and every avenue I can think of has been tried, including enlisting the help of users at WikiProject Japan, who looked in Japanese sources and were not able to provide a verifiable date. Note that we do know the actual date (see the past nomination), but it is from an unpublished source. I do hope this time around some more users will stop by and focus on the substance.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 19:03, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy close - Image issues from previous FAC unaddressed Fasach Nua (talk) 19:24, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you opposed on that basis, as I noted above and I addressed your concern by providing nuanced analysis of the fair use appropriateness which you did not respond to in kind. You oppose many nominations for your rather extreme take on fair use. For example, this nom, where at least four users disagreed with you, the FU image remained, and the article was promoted (see also here, here ("Fasach Nua has a long history of opposing FACs that have any fair-use images in them and often doesn't follow up on his comments"), here, here and here (I'm sure there's more)). You ask for a speedy close as if many users commented, agreed with you, and that was the basis for the article not being promoted. Well, that is not the case. I invite discussion with a broader range of users. If it becomes clear that I am a voice in the wilderness, then maybe we can "speedy close" if I refuse to address the issue. It really rankles to have to start the FAC this way.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 20:33, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with Fuhghettaboutit. Nua is being completely unreasonable. 128.232.240.140 (talk) 09:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image concerns unaddressed: the fair use rationale of File:Katsura-Matsuyama exhibition ad.png (replaceable with an Inkspace/paint work based on original) and File:Masako Katsura—1954 Buenos Aires.png (there is almost certainly no free equivalent, is violated, see File:Katsura, Matsuyama and Greenleaf.Jpg). Not really a speedy close, but Fasach Nua's concerns about fair use images are valid here. These concerns were also pointed in the last FAC. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:16, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they were addressed in the first FAC, we just did not agree and, per my nomination text above, I seek input from others here. Fasach asserted these two images weren't fair use, with no rationale provided whatever; you actually gave reasons for your view to which I responded in depth. Let me recapitulate.

The newspaper ad is textual, not a chart or map that can just be "redrawn", just as a you can't take an article from a newspaper and retype it in a different font than was used in the original and then claim you've provided a "free equivalent". There is no copyrightable "image" here as far as I can tell, so speaking of free equivalency appears to me to be a non sequitur.

As for File:Masako Katsura—1954 Buenos Aires.png, the only free image found of Katsura (my upload) is not equivalent at all. As previously noted, the image is of her in a historically significant international competition that is described in the text and the other image has a completely different character and flavor that does not convey the same information. I have opened a thread here to attempt to get additional input.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 18:35, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With regards to File:Katsura-Matsuyama exhibition ad.png, this image is PD, not non-free, since it's an advertisement without its own copyright notice published in a collective work prior to 1978. I've updated the image description to correct the copyright status.

With regards to File:Masako_Katsura—1954_Buenos_Aires.png, I believe the fair-use rationale and the commentary in Masako Katsura is probably sufficient to prevent the deletion of this image, but it's been my observation that featured articles are generally held to a higher standard as they are expected to exemplify Wikipedia's goal to be a free content encyclopedia (I, however, have no experience evaluating featured article candidates). Would a compromise be acceptable? Perhaps lead-off with the PD File:Katsura,_Matsuyama_and_Greenleaf.Jpg in the infobox and place File:Masako_Katsura—1954_Buenos_Aires.png in the section discussing the 1954 World Three-Cushion tournament (I'd however, expect to see some discussion specifically relevant to this image, i.e. is the pose or shot pictured in some way worthy of mention?) —RP88 ^(talk) 20:30, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clearing up the advertisement licensing and very glad I posted to WP:HDQ to get the attention of someone with expertise. So it would be a good idea for me to move the image to the Commons then, yes? Regarding switching the images: I feel like it we would lose some vitality—certainly if both images were free we would want the image of her in international competition in the infobox—but I could certainly live with it. Another thing is that the other image does not work well in the infobox. Where it appears presently the reader has already been introduced to the three people depicted. If in the infobox it would be Katsura and two others who the reader hasn't a clue about.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:26, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, it looks like the free image may be deleted at the Commons, which would leave the FU image as the only image possible anyway, which would moot the free equivalency issue.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:43, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All of the concerns over the two fair use images discussed above are now moot. The advertisement has been updated to reflect its public domain status and the image of Katsura in the infobox, claimed to have violated fair use by virtue of there being a free alternative, now has none, as the date of publication of that "free" image found could only be deduced by circumstance, but not verified, so it has been deleted at Commons.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support well written, thoroughly referenced and very interesting. Dincher (talk) 20:58, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for stopping by Dincher. I am glad you found it interesting and, of course, appreciate the support.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:50, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 16:08, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources issues: One tiny point: Ref 105 is in Japanese, and this should be noted. Otherwise all references and sources look OK, no further issues. Brianboulton (talk) 21:48, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thanks for finding this. I checked the two other Japanese sources (87 and 88) to make sure of consistency.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:50, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – I gave a review at the first FAC, but that didn't cover the entire article. I'm going to skip over the first few sections, which I remember reading before, and pick up the review in Exhibition tours. Only found a few new points to bring up:

~~The quote that is the second sentence of the section could use some form of a lead-in, perhaps discussing her popularity (if the source mentions it, of course).~~
1953 World Three-Cushion Tournament: "In her first match she defeated...". Here it would be helpful to mention Katsura's name because it actually hasn't been mentioned in a while. In fact, the previous couple of sentences discussed different players. I don't think readers would be confused, but anything we can do to prevent the possibility of confusion helps.
~~1954 World Three-Cushion Tournament: Comma needed after Welker Cochran.~~
"then beat Chamaco 60–66". I notice that the score appears reversed here, but question whether something else is going on. The rest of these results are races to 60, so I'm wondering if there is a typo present. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 14:30, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for looking it over again Giants. All fixed but for the first which I will look at tomorrow. The last was a typo (hit 6 twice rather than 5).--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't find a statement that was useful for a lead-in, but I think the problem with the quote (it did read as abrupt) is that it needed some context. I attributed the quote (to Cochran) and it reads better now I think. Let me know if you think so too.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:32, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the abruptness was the main reason I brought it up. Looks better now. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:14, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Looks well-researched and well-written. Two nitpicks:
After marrying a U.S. army officer in 1950, Katsura emigrated with him to the United States in 1951, where she was invited and played in the 1952 U.S.-sponsored World Three-Cushion Championship, - awkward phrasing. Notice that it says "where she was invited and played"; that's going to need a rewrite.
After 1954, Katsura took a five-year hiatus from the sport, only giving the sporadic exhibition: approximately 30 in 1958, and a one-week exhibition engagement with reigning world champion Harold Worst in 1959. - I don't think you should use a colon there, it just seems awkward. However, if you prefer that way, it would be okay with me. Excellent work. ceranthor 13:27, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for commenting Ceranthor. I addressed the first issue here. Does it read better to you? Regarding the second, I changed the colon to an em-dash (I don't think it works with a comma).--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:29, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is 30 exhibition in one year sporadic? Gimmetoo (talk) 14:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, that was the main question I had with that one. ceranthor 23:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sporadic plays off of five years, and the subtext is that she only gave exhibitions, that she was not playing professional tournaments. However, it is a meager engagement even over one year. A professional might play 200 or more exhibitions in a year and compete in 50 or more tournaments. I'm not locked to the language though. Does that explanation help, or does it still sound wrong to you?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:29, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is still seems a confusing sentence for the lead. "... only giving the sporadic exhibition—approximately 30 in 1958..." means [only giving] approximately 30 [exhibition] in 1958. First, should it be exhibition[s]? Second, if only exhibitions in 1958 are mentioned, it suggests to me she had no public events in '55, '56 or '57. If that is true, could you just say that after 1954 she did not appear until doing about 30 exhibitions in 1958? Gimmetoo (talk) 05:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have rewritten the paragraph. Tell me what you think.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 10:37, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I made a minor copyedit and added an inflation function for the size of the purse. Interesting, well written. I would note that you probably shouldn't give "Retrieved" dates for sources that are printed. While the templates do have a parameter for them, they're really only helpful for an online-only sources - they help find things in webarchives, and deal with link rot. Once something is printed, it's not that relevant any more - all you're telling people is when you personally read it, as opposed to when it was actually on the web. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:12, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for stopping by Jayjg. That's a very neat template that I didn't know existed and that will come in handy in the future. I'll go remove the access dates—I'll leave them in for the few web-based sources used of course. Actually, hmmm, all the web citations have webcitation.org archive URLs, which should be permanent, so maybe the retrieval dates are superfluous for these as well. But they also retain a secondary link to the original URL. Do you think the retrieval dates can/should come out of those as well? Well I'll leave them in for the moment.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 06:06, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the links to archived pages, I think it might be helpful to include the date when the archive was last accessed. The reason is that even archives can disappear or be unavailable. For example the first citation, footnote 45, is apparently unavailable right now: [2]. When you access it the page says "Please note: Any snapshots taken between April 23rd, 2010 and May 10th, 2010 are currently unavailable. They will be made available again shortly." Jayjg ^(talk) 20:19, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Already included in all three: "Archived from the original on [date]."--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:54, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.