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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Seduction of Ingmar Bergman/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:05, 8 May 2010 [1].

The Seduction of Ingmar Bergman edit

The Seduction of Ingmar Bergman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nominator(s): JN466 15:32, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because it has just passed GA, over the course of which it was significantly expanded, using Swedish-language sources (thanks to User:Pieter Kuiper, who helped me with the translations). I believe it now represents a comprehensive account of this musical and its critical reception that is worthy of FA status. JN466 15:32, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments. No dab links or dead external links. Ucucha 15:42, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why does this work need a visual identification beyond the text? Fasach Nua (talk) 19:51, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure I understand your question. --JN466 20:09, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The use of File:Seduction of Ingmar Bergman.jpg is justified because it provides visual identification, I don't understand how "visual identification" meets wp:nfcc Fasach Nua (talk) 20:19, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. It's the album cover. Including the album cover in the infobox is standard in FAs. Cf. A Momentary Lapse Of Reason, The Dark Side of the Moon, Wish_You_Were_Here_(Pink_Floyd_album) and many others that have an image of the album cover in the infobox, with the same nfcc rationale. --JN466 20:46, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose inappropriate use of non free content Fasach Nua (talk) 04:11, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, the sole image of the album cover is a valid fair use. --Redtigerxyz Talk 05:45, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing inappropriate about the use of a non-free image of an album cover in such an article. In fact its common practice, and the image upload tool actually includes a fair use rationale for an album cover. The resolution of the image is well under the required boundary of 300px. The image page includes in the licence section, the correct fair use rationale. I'm having trouble understanding exactly why you're opposing; currently I think you're in error. Parrot of Doom 11:56, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sandy/Karanacs, if there is some aspect of nfcc criteria that I am unaware of, please let me know, and I will remove the image. However, I believe Redtigerxyz and Parrot of Doom have got this right; including a low-res image of the album cover in the infobox is standard. --JN466 17:25, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to WP:NFCI "Cover art" being included in an article which includes comentary of the album being shown constitutes an "appropriate use" of non-free content. --SkotyWATC 00:13, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I concur; the current guidelines and policies on non-free content are such that a copyrighted image can be used to "identify the subject" (lede image) of an article, unless a "free/libre" version is available (see Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guidelineWikipedia:Non-free content#Images). Of course, the rationales must still be written to state how the image complies with WP:NFCC; as a lede image, the article is expressing critical commentary about the subject (image). It would be decorative (and non-compliant with NFCC) if used in other articles (such as Ingrid Bergman, Sparks (band), or a list of the band's works) to illustrate the album, but using it in The Seduction of Ingmar Bergman as the lede image is compliant with policies/guidelines. Jappalang (talk) 08:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. --JN466 09:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • First a personal note; I'm a long time fan of Sparks but I associate them more with my brother who actually bought the records (I would just get to hear them) and who died last year, so I got a bit of a twinge to see a Sparks article turn up for review.
    • I have proofread the article; can't see any little errors needing to be corrected.
    • It is quite a short FA candidate, but that alone isn't something to oppose for. It does, though, make me wonder if there may be more to be said. I wonder if the fact that there will be a film means that we should hold off on FA status until there is a film, at which point there will presumably be a flurry of activity on the article unless the film is given an article of its own. Or to couch that in more relevant terms; is the article likely to become unstable when additional material is released? If so, is that something we should be taking into account when deciding whether to promote or not?
    • Thanks to all those who contributed to the article; it's looking pretty good at the moment, I would say. --bodnotbod (talk) 13:15, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for your comments. (I too have followed Sparks for rather more decades than I care to add up.) About expanding the article's length, I didn't really find anything more to say in secondary sources; on the whole, they're much in agreement with each other. I could mine Sparks's MySpace blog, to add a paragraph or two about their youthful love of Bergman's films etc., but then it's a primary source, and it's there as an external link for people to read already.
      • As far as the film version is concerned, there is no way of knowing if it will ever materialise (Sparks, unfortunately, have an unhappy history of unfulfilled plans). I could find nothing on further developments in the recent press. Even if the film were to come about, it would probably deserve a standalone article, with just a short paragraph and link here. So if you'd like to support ... :)
      • I added some sound samples earlier today, as that seems to be standard in album FAs. Best, --JN466 16:43, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Support. JN466, I'm fairly new to FA reviews so I tend not to "support/oppose", I just like to help things along. However, there does seem to be a lack of supporting/opposing going on, so I guess I'd better step up soon. At the moment, though, I really need to be more familiar with FA criteria, so forgive me for being a chicken for now. However, I take back my comment about the article "possibly becoming unstable if a film comes out". We make featured articles about, for example, still active popstars, and they are always liable to release a new album or do something new and I haven't seen anyone argue "no, it can't be an FA because something new may come along." I have struck those comments. I will offer an amateur support but hope that someone more experienced can seal the deal. --bodnotbod (talk) 19:47, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support. pending a few resolutions....;) And Bodnotbod, get off the timid newbie schtick. :)

  • Based around an imaginary.... Constructed around...Built around?
    • done, thanks. --JN466 01:52, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...its storyline focuses on the divides between European and American culture ... divides? divisions?
    • to take that idea a little further, are the divisions between European and American culture really as basic as art and commerce? If they are, this doesn't come up later in the article, or at least not specifically, just metaphorically.
      • I guess they're really two separate aspects; in the story, Bergman experiences both a culture shock, and a different attitude to film-making. I've made it "divisions" (and "dichotomies" later on in the text), so the wording no longer implies these are one and the same thing. Hope that works for you. --JN466 01:48, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Radioteatern, ..... what does this mean?
    • It's explained previously; it's Swedish for radio theater (the name of the station's radio drama department). --JN466 01:46, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • a plot device... concludes and resolves the fantasy,.... Shouldn't this be, In the concluding moments, a plot device resolves the fantasy....?
    • I think it's okay as it stands -- it both concludes the fantasy and resolves it (Garbo takes him to watch one of her early Swedish movies with her; as the film ends, Garbo has disappeared, and when he leaves the cinema, he is back in Stockholm) --JN466 01:46, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • awarding the album 5 stars.... don't we write out numbers 0-10?
  • Rick Wakeman’s King Arthur on Ice--italics or quotation marks?
  • The BBC review stated fans hoping for... According to the BBC review, fans hoping for....?
    • I'd rather stay as is with that, as the sentence continues later on (... but added that ...). Is that okay? --JN466 02:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lovely article. Thanks! Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments-I have seen Jayen editing this article and been having a look at the article and this nomination. Jayen is my acquaintance and on my watch-list. I am commenting really because it is him but not in support of him but in regard to wikipedia guidelines and criteria. This is the first time I have commented at a review and I have compared the style and content with the criteria and with other featured album articles.
  • 1

(a) article is well written.

(b) fully comprehensive and contextualized

(c) fully sourced to high quality WP:RS

(d) no visible bias-neutral reporting of the cited content

(e) stable apart from the editors tweaks and minor improvements

  • 2

(a) lead gives overview and draws readers interest

(b) well sectioned and headed, with a clear progressive structure

(c) all citations well formated

  • 3

Fair use sleeve cover with rational and fair use sound samples with rationals compliant with Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria

  • 4

Content fully covers all aspects of the album, it is not as large as some other featured albums but there was no associated tour or film. It is not overlong and appears fully compliant with Wikipedia:Summary style.

  • So I Support the nomination. All in all a well written, informative, professional article, that Wikipedia can be proud of. Off2riorob (talk) 19:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comment: Can you clarify what information is being supported by refs [3] (Amazon) and [4] (allsparks.com)?
Otherwise, sources look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 02:06, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • The release date of the vinyl deluxe box set, nothing else. --JN466 03:26, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: Please fix the inconsistent dates in the citations. Some use ISO dates, some use day month year format, and some citations mix the two within the same citation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

JN, this is strictly personal preference (I don't believe there's a guideline), so ignore me if you disagree, but putting the foreign language icon before the citation, rather than at the end, is easier on the reader, because it allows them to know the language before deciding whether to click on the link, and easier on reviewers, because they can quickly see how many sources are non-English. I always place them at the front of the citation. Also, on non-English sources like nt.se, are you able to give us a rough equivalent (in English?) of what those are (a name for the site)? Otherwise, we can't evaluate reliability. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:37, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved the icons to the front of the refs; it does make sense. As for nt.se, this is the website of Norrköpings Tidningar, a Swedish daily published since 1758 (tidningar means newspapers).
The other Swedish sources cited are:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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