Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Letter-winged kite/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 12 August 2019 [1].

Letter-winged kite

Nominator(s): Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:12, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an elusive nocturnal raptor that generally lives in areas far from human activity....and thus is little studied. I have scraped together what is known for the article. I am waiting on OTRS to see if I can use another couple of images and someone may be in the process of donating others (so they will either appear or not at some point in the next few days). Anyway, have at it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:12, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SC

Scant fare from me; only four points to address:

Description

"and grey plumage is slightly darker all over": "the" or "her" before grey?

I went with its instead Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:56, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Distribution and habitat

Is the map necessary in the IB? If not, it could be moved to this section, where the distribution is being described. No probs if the IB is the usual place for distribution maps.

With all the birds I have done (and loads of other folks') it's in the infobox. Years ago Hesperian (talk · contribs) put them in the distribution section but no-one else has Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:56, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that may be the case. No probs with where it is at the moment. - SchroCat (talk) 13:06, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Breeding

"feathered by 3–4 weeks of age and can fly at 7 weeks": technically the numbers should be written out, but I leave that to your discretion

I went with numbers as there are larger numbers about this sort of stuff sprinkled about that section Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:56, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Conservation status

1000 -> 1,000?

tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:56, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Another very nicely put together piece. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:16, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:56, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support All good from me - up the usual standard, which more than happily meets the FA criteria. - SchroCat (talk) 13:06, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Don't use fixed px size

File:Kite,_Letter-winged_-_Strzelecki_Track_25-08-07_IMG_1519aa.jpg is tagged as lacking source info. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:10, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed px and added source Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:39, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Enwebb

Should be "IUCN Red List of Threatened Species" rather than "IUCN Red List of Endangered species"--terminology and capitalization slightly off

fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:37, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Narrative of an expedition into Central Australia is in sentence case in text but title case in reference

fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:37, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It has large deep red eyes, I think should be It has large, deep red eyes,

fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:37, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gloss explanation of cere

added a bit - hard not to repeat "bill" in the same sentence Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:37, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"retrices" should be "rectrices" (two instances that I've seen)

fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:37, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Birds in juvenile plumage are able to breed within their first year of age this confuses me. I think it would be better as "Individuals reach sexual maturity at x age" or "within x years"

thought my way was in plainer English but not fussed really Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:37, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Now that I think about it, this may be a non sequitor in the description section anyway. Would it make more sense to include this in #Breeding? My confusion was also in part due to "birds in juvenile plumage" rather than "juveniles", as I had to think if there was a lag between a fledgling developing "juvenile plumage" and then the amount of time after that happened to reach sexual maturity. Kind of like a two-step math problem. I'm probably overthinking it though, in terms of terminology. Enwebb (talk) 21:34, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

has been moved to breeding Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:10, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

that's my feedback through "distribution and habitat" Enwebb (talk) 18:40, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You say When a mouse or other prey is spotted, but then go on to say that rats, not mice, are their primary food source. I feel you can simply say when prey is spotted

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Should central Australian be capitalized here? One central Australian study over two and a half years... In the next sentence, Central Australia is written with a capital C.

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Predation is pretty short to be a subsection. Sometimes I include information on predators, disease, and parasites for a mortality section if one aspect alone is scanty.

unfortunately very little other material out there... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

...contact with people in most parts of its range could be more simply contact with people in most of its range

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Feral cats prey on nestlings this should probably be in predation section

moved - just realised that statement does not come from that source (ref 25) so will find the source for that. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Might be good to point out in conservation section that foxes and cats are non-native predators/competitors

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have! Clearly a very high-quality article. Enwebb (talk) 21:34, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Enwebb (talk) 14:33, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:43, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FunkMonk

Will have a look soon. Some initial comments. FunkMonk (talk) 01:29, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
" to a subfamily Elaninae" The subfamily?

fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:40, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be good to show a cladogram?

there are only some genus ones and not with this species Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:40, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"It has been incorrectly called white-breasted sparrowhawk" Link sparrowhawk here?

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:40, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Anything on what's the closest relative within the genus?

it will be basal to the other 3 species Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:40, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Should be stated then? FunkMonk (talk) 02:05, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have another look but I don't think anyone has published anything phylogenetically on the group. The other three species are very similar and were considered conspecific at one point. I am guessing but I will see if I can find a source that supports same Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:25, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, should definitely be mentioned that they were thought conspecific then, not as simple taxonomy after all... FunkMonk (talk) 02:38, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This one was never thought to be conspecific - it was the other three with each other. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:49, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The taxonomic history is unusually simple; no synonyms or recombinations?

yep and nope Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:40, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Range of E. scriptus" Why the scientific name here?

no reason. fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:00, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The caption to the video is very uninformative, how about "footage of two birds in Bowenville, SE Queensland" or similar?

used image instead Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:00, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As there, why not state location in the other captions?

added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:00, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Feral cats prey on nestlings." No source.

Weird. HANZAB doesn't mention this. Can't think of where it came from (checked a couple of places) now so removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This image of multiple roosting birds seems more interesting than the video, if you have to choose:[2]

switched Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:00, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You use both ise and ize.

ised now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:04, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Central Australia is duplinked in the article body.

fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:40, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Birds:Non-passerines" Space needed?

Seems to have been done, and one of my own comments somehow moved here by mistake. FunkMonk (talk) 02:38, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The taxonomic history is unusually simple; no synonyms or recombinations?

yep, added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:23, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The feet have three toes facing forwards and one toe facing backwards." Isn't this common to all Accipitriformes? Seems an odd thing to point out?

Ospreys don't. Also at one point the Elaninae were thought to have some affinity to owls (strigifomes), which don't either Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:13, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, didn't know, seems they can turn one toe back and forth... FunkMonk (talk) 02:38, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Birds in juvenile plumage reach sexual maturity within their first year of age." this seems oddly phrased and placed. Isn't it the same as just saying the species reaches sexual maturity at this time, and shouldn't it be under breeding then?

moved Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:14, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Phrasing "Birds in juvenile plumage reach sexual maturity" still seems oddly specific. Is it meant to convey that they can breed even while they still have juvenile plumage? FunkMonk (talk) 02:38, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"coloration" This should be colouration, no?

'u' added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:23, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"the black-shouldered kite" You give scientific name for most other species mentioned in the article body. Perhaps others are missing.

added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:23, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Quueensland" Double u!

removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:23, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"and southeastern corner" Is this a placename? Should be capitalised then, and anything to link?

not as official as some, often written "southeastern South Australia". No wikipage - will see if offwiki sources consider it official or not Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:26, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if the roosting image would make more sense where the nest image is now, as that paragraph deals with roosting, then the nest image would make more sense below in the breeding section, where it discusses the nest?

yep, rejigged Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:23, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"black kites (Milvus migrans)" given scientific name twice.

oops/removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"This individual then" Seems wordy and unspecific when you could just say "he" or "the male", as you say her?

tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"and may even begin a second brood" With this or another male?

the same Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"and have more than one nest and brood at once" Same question as above, is it the same phenomenon that is meant?

yes Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"such as the plains rat (Pseudomys australis)" Here, and in a few other places, you link the scientific name rather than the common name, any reason for the inconsistency?

tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Link dingo and house mouse?

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"It gains its name from the highly distinctive black underwing pattern of a shallow 'M' or 'W' shape" Only stated in intro.

oops/added now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:50, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"the letter-winged kite is the world's only fully nocturnal Accipitriformes or Falconiformes raptor" Only specifically mentioned in intro, the article body just says family.

given that the definition is raptor is a massive headache and now Accipitriformes and Falconiformes are distantly related and actually the former group is closer to owls anyway, the sentence becomes difficult to state simply. Also they occasionally do hunt in the day. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Similarly to all the elanid kites" Only stated in intro.

removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support - looks nice to me now. FunkMonk (talk) 23:18, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:07, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hylian Auree

A finely illustrated and comprehensive account on this cute bird. The prose reads well and is easily understandable to a layman as myself ~~although I do believe the writing in the third large paragraph of the Breeding section could benefit from some tightening and simplification.~~ I’ve reread it several times after my initial comments and I cannot fault it. Great work! Auree ^★★ 22:20, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please review my c/e to make sure I haven't changed the meaning anywhere. Specific comments:

"There is some evidence that they are more divergent from other raptors and better placed in their own family." - I was a bit disappointed that I didn't get to find out what evidence that is. Can we get a bit more on this, maybe in what way they are divergent? In any case, should we use "... that they may be" instead of the definitive "that they are" here, since the evidence isn't conclusive?

rejigged last bit - it is genetic evidence but it was at genus level (Elanus) and none of the samples included this species. Furthermore this article is about the species so have aimed to provide enough context for the reader to place the species in the whole raport scheme of things but left out further detail as off-topic. The further evdence for a deeper split is also genetic Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:27, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rereading as it is now, it makes much more sense. Auree ^★★ 17:30, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The letter-winged kite is generally silent when alone but often noisy when breeding or roosting communally at night, often beginning at the rising of the moon." Can we rejiggle this a tad so it's clearer what begins at moon rise: the noisiness, the breeding or the communal roosting?

added "to call" after beginning Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"likened to chicken-like" - reads a bit quirky (though I do like chicken)

rejigged Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"A rasping call, or scrape, composed of six or seven half-second long notes is the main contact call between a pair, often used by the female in answer to a whistle by her mate, when a bird alights at the nest, or—loudly—in response to an intruder." - a bit long winded

sentence split Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"which often starve" – not a huge deal, but if possible, can we briefly explain why their dispersal would lead to starvation?

added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:20, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The species is generally rare in New South Wales,[16] and has been recorded in the vicinity of Broken Hill in far western New South Wales,[21] and a dead bird recorded in a street in Inverell in the north of the state in 1965 and another spotted there a year later." - something is off here; could also be tightened/re-ordered.

tried a rejig. tricky this... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:53, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It was tricky. I gave it my own attempt to improve the flow slightly – see here with my note in the edit summary. Auree ^★★ 17:11, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

First, we read that it is unknown whether the kites remain bonded "between breeding seasons", but then we find out that "[t]here does not appear to be a set breeding season" – which left me a bit bemused.

they have spells of breeding that are related to rodent irruptions. Although they are not regular seasons they are still called such Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:24, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fair point, although I don’t suppose “between breeding” or “after breeding” (without “season”) is acceptable? Auree ^★★ 17:30, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

hadn't thought of the last option, that works for me Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:11, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"dull white eggs measuring 44 x 32 mm" – needs conversion to inches

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:17, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We have a bit of description of the young birds in the Breeding section that overlaps with the Description section. Not sure if this is common practice ..?

yeah generally put stuff on baby birds in nest into breeding section as it is an integral part of it. Guidebooks often do as well. Also moved the other sentence about immature birds breeding there - whole cycle etc. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:17, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"He calls as he approaches, at which the female flies out to meet him and receive the food which she then conveys to the young. At times the male brings food to the female on the nest but has not been known to feed the young himself. As the brood grows, the female joins the male in catching food, and may even begin a second brood and leave the male to feed the older brood." - writing is a bit loose and disjointed in this portion.

I've stared at this passage several times today and not come up with a more succinct way of phrasing it. Any suggestions welcome Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can do. Auree ^★★ 16:41, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I gave it a go; see if it still conveys the intended meaning. Auree ^★★ 17:11, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ah nice! that works! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:11, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can we split the large breeding paragraph? Maybe somewhere between the description of the physical nest and that of the brooding/eggs.

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"It flies at a height of 10 to 20 m (33 to 66 ft), moving in wide circles. It hovers at a height of up to 30 m (100 ft)." - what does the fact that it "hovers" higher than it flies means?

hovering is when it is staying in one spot scoping for prey - it's very distinctive when you see it. I'd be guessing that it needs to be higher to take advantage of updrafts but I'd be guessing. No reason is given in the source Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for explaining. I guess my issue is with the 10-meter gap between flying in circles and hovering—when/why/how it went higher. Is there a way we can combine these two thoughts more seamlessly to describe the hunting sequence?Auree ^★★ 17:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

temporally linked now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:11, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"One Central Australian study over two and a half years found that the birds had relocated to an area within six months of a rodent outbreak starting." - why is this important? "relocated to an area" reads a bit like non-information.

Ok, it means that after the rodent population started booming in one area, within six months the kites had found them and relocated there. As it was a specific field study, I added the location - might be important if other research from a different area finds something different. Rather than "relocated"...."moved in"? I like "relocated" as it implied "moved in and set up residence" there. I can't think of a more succinct way of saying it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:37, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think I understand now, and "relocated" is fine; I guess my confusion came from its placement within the paragraph. It comes right after we discuss declining rodents/bird dispersal, which makes it read as though their relocation to another area occurs after an outbreak's end, not in response to its beginning. What about moving it up behind the paragraph's first sentence, and rewording to "One Central Australian study over two and a half years found that, within six months of an outbreak starting, the birds had relocated to that location." or something similar? Auree ^★★ 16:41, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that works well Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:14, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for another engaging read, Cas. Feel free to point out where I'm off track! Auree ^★★ 01:51, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I've seen the diurnal kite, but not this. Are there any known parasites? Also perhaps link red fox and split the long final para of "Breeding" Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:38, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:07, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

No spotchecks carried out
Links to sources all working, per the checker tool
Formats all consistent
Quality/reliability: No issues here

Brianboulton (talk) 12:31, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

thx for checking. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:08, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Vanamonde

Wondering if there's a way to separate the links for "irruptive" and "raptor" in the lead; those unfamiliar with the subject may miss the reference to population growth entirely.

that's a tricky one. I think it is easiest just to delink bird of prey as a pretty obvious link. I can't otherwise think of a reword that splits the two words and irruptive is definitely the more educational link Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:56, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Link "primary coverts", perhaps.

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:56, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"At night, it could be mistaken" The "it" is potentially ambiguous, I think.

tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:56, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"heavier overall and lacks the black markings" I'd prefer a comma before "and" but I recognize that folks have different opinions about this.

I think it works well, done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:56, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think sub-national territorial units, including Australian provinces, should be linked.

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:56, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Distribution and habitat starts with distribution, jumps to population irruptions, and then goes back to distribution...I think some reordering would help the flow.

My idea was: core distribution --> irruptions --> places it appears when there are irruptions....? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:56, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Casliber: Ah. So the second paragraph refers only to areas where it's recorded during irruptions, but not otherwise? In that case the sequence makes sense, but that's a subtlety I missed, and I think a slight rephrasing would be helpful. Vanamonde (Talk) 14:40, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually now I have slept on it and taken another look I have rejigged it like asked. It isn't that clear-cut anyway Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:33, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

When using "city name, state", is it not conventional to follow the state name with a second comma? It reads odd to me without; but maybe it's an ENGVAR thing.

added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:56, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"in response to rodent plagues" Does the source really say "plagues"? It strikes me as somewhat old-fashioned, coming from a time when all rodents were considered a nuisance...

changed to "irruptions" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:01, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are egg measurements averages? Do we need an "averaging" or even an "approximately" before them?

added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:01, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In the third paragraph of "food and hunting", I'd prefer to see the material about potential competition gathered together; it's separated by a sentence about predation rate at the moment.

tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:01, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have; a solid article, if a tad brief. Ping me when you're done, if you would; I'm not watching this. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:42, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

yes there was less material on this species definitely. @Vanamonde93: over to you... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:01, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all my concerns addressed. A reviewer has suggested that the prose over at Operation PBFortune could use further work, so if you have a moment comments would be much appreciated. Vanamonde (Talk) 02:00, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. --Laser brain (talk) 19:06, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.