Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Joseph A. Lopez/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 20 July 2020 [1].


Joseph A. LopezEdit

Nominator(s): Ergo Sum 15:52, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

This is a short but comprehensive article. Given some old discussions about how to deal with short articles at FAC, this should be an interesting go; perhaps even a test case. Ergo Sum 15:52, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Image review

  • File:Joseph_A._Lopez_portrait.jpg: is this portrait known to have been publicly displayed anywhere prior to its digitization? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
    • After searching, I can find no evidence of it being published prior to 2003, in print or digital format. Ergo Sum 01:48, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
      • @Nikkimaria: I have added one more image to the article. Do you think you can do a quick review? Ergo Sum 16:11, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Comments from TherapyisgoodEdit

Leaning towards support after these are looked at. Thanks. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:49, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Therapyisgood. Ergo Sum 17:46, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
@Therapyisgood: Have you had a chance to give the comments a look? Ergo Sum 00:42, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Support for featured article status but there needs to be a source review. I am a bit concerned over the sudden change of the National Autonomous University of Mexico to the Royal and Pontifical University of Mexico as well. Therapyisgood (talk) 05:00, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I changed it because the source refers to the "University of Mexico." I assumed that meant the National Autonomous because that is often referred to simply as the University of Mexico, but I then realized it had not yet been founded at the time he attended. Therefore, it must have been its predecessor institution, the Royal and Pontifical, which was also referred to as the University of Mexico. Ergo Sum 17:08, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Comments from SandyGeorgiaEdit

Egro Sum, what is here looks good, but I have bad news; you're not there yet.

I am not sure if google translate will give you all you need; if not, I am willing to help with the Spanish, but it could take some time. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:08, 13 May 2020 (UTC) Translation here: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scielo.org.mx%2Fscielo.php%3Fscript%3Dsci_arttext%26pid%3DS0185-26202012000200005%26lng%3Des%26nrm%3Diso%26tlng%3Des&skpa=on SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:10, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, SandyGeorgia. Not to worry, though. I've already read that (and, in fact, have already included it in the External links section). The intro of the Regulations was edited and translated by Ávila, who also wrote the Relatos article. There's nothing in the Regulations intro that isn't in the article. Ergo Sum 17:12, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
But there is so much other detail in this full article that can be mined! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:28, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
The only material in there that I haven't mentioned in the article is the actual curriculum that he prescribed. I'm not sure that's really worthy of inclusion in his biography. Perhaps just a sentence about it. Ergo Sum 17:33, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Just seeing if you have any other thoughts, SandyGeorgia. Ergo Sum 00:48, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
I will try to look in soon; Please ping me if I forget by end of week. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:03, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: Friendly ping. Ergo Sum 19:09, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Looking now, and apologies for my extreme delay. Other Stuff Happened (ARBCOM :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:50, 8 July 2020 (UTC) The article has this:

  • Modeled on the educational curriculum of Spanish princes, this manual was not published due to military unrest.

Would you consider worth adding mention that The Jose A. Lopez Collections are preserved as part of a special collection of the Lauinger Library at Georgetown University? The paper I linked above (quoting from the translation, which you can see) also mention that his work discusses the "weight of religion, the importance of the prince as a guide to the Christian republic or the introduction of convenient knowledge ... from physics, chemistry, mineralogy, and astronomy". It also says that "it is a unique document of this type produced in independent Mexico and accounts for some of the assumptions about what government should be like, beyond its pedagogical proposals". (I am quoting from Google translate-- should you decide to use any of this, which I find of interest, I will go back to the original Spanish to verify correct wording.)

  • This source presents Lopez's work as "due to its importance it seems to me that it should be published in full and is extensive" ... useful in the history of education in Mexico.
  • "Lopez showed a vision of politics that was not well adjusted to the political system that had just been established, because although he pointed out as a success the establishment of a moderate monarchy, he gave an excessive role to the imperial family in the government and in the direction of their subjects."
  • "Lopez was right in noting that the heir to the throne would have an enormous political responsibility, but sometimes seems to forget that, under the representative system that had been adopted, all citizens had the capacity to govern themselves, through their representatives."
  • Mention of Maryland Province for the Society of Jesus.
  • claims he was the first librarian at Georgetown College ?

The article then appears to include the full copy of his unpublished work ... primary, but you might find something of use in it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:21, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your helpful comments, SandyGeorgia. I've added a sentence about his curriculum's view of monarchical politics. As for the role of the manual in education history, I don't know how widespread a view that is, since I haven't seen any other academic make that claim; it may be rather idiosyncratic to this author. Also, I can't find where it says he was the first librarian; that would also seem to clash with the references on William Feiner. Ergo Sum 20:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
I added the text, then realized I didn't have a page number to cite. I suspect your Spanish skills may be better than mine. Could I bother you to open the PDF and find out the relevant page numbers to cite for the sentence I added? Ergo Sum 21:05, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
From the PDF page 178 has (in case you want to use the quote= parameter, as one theoretically should with non-English sources),

Sólo apuntaré que López mostraba una visión de la política poco ajustada al sistema político que acababa de instaurarse, pues si bien señalaba como un acierto el haberse establecido una monarquía moderada, concedía un papel excesivo a la familia imperial en el gobierno y en la dirección de sus súbditos. Por supuesto, asistía la razón a López al anotar que el heredero del trono tendría sobre sí una enorme responsabilidad política, pero a veces pareciera olvidar que, bajo el sistema representativo que se había adoptado, el conjunto de los ciudadanos tenía capacidad para gobernarse, a través de sus representantes.

which translates to (my adjustments to the poor Google translate-- but use that if you prefer):

I will only point out that López showed a political vision not well adjusted to the political system that had just been established, because although he indicated as a triumph the successful establishment of a moderate monarchy, he granted an excessive role to the imperial family in the government and direction of its subjects. Of course, reason agreed with López noting that the heir to the throne would have an enormous political responsibility, but sometimes he seemed to forget that, under the representative system that had been adopted, all citizens had the capacity to govern themselves, through their representatives.

Also, if you use the trans-title parameter for the title, Method and regulation of instruction of the Mexican princes, 1822: Palaeography and presentation.
I'm down for Support with this addition mentioning the impact of his work. I expected you would have better sources re the "first" librarian ... so good. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:24, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
On the other hand, the article's author's opinion, stated on page 178, is based on text from the actual curriculum, which is found on pages 187–8, in case you want to cite that page as well:

El imperio mexicano ha adoptado, por una providencia especial de Dios, la de monarquía moderada, confiando con este hecho a sus príncipes nada menos que la salud del Estado y la felicidad de todo el pueblo. ¿Cuántas pues y cuáles serán las obligaciones que por tan eminente cargo han contraído con la sociedad? “Sabed, hijo mío –decía Luis, el Godo, a Luis, rey de Francia–, que el reino no es otra cosa que una carga pública, de que hemos de dar cuenta rigurosa al que dispone de los cetros y coronas.” Un buen príncipe, que algún día ha de ser conductor del Estado, debe tener muy presente esa sentencia para no omitir esfuerzo alguno en hacerse por el estudio y buen ejemplo capaz de conducirlo benéfica y sabiamente. La ciencia del gobierno es ciertamente la más intrincada y difícil, como que tiene por objeto conocer a los hombres, para poderlos conducir a su bienestar por los caminos de la justicia y equidad, y los príncipes deben consagrar todos sus desvelos a conseguir esta ciencia que es, digámoslo así, la de su profesión: ella comprende el conocimiento de todos los derechos, puesto que su ejercicio consiste en aplicarlos, y este ejercicio ha de ser inseparable del de las demás virtudes. En el estudio del derecho público, lo primero que se ofrece es el examen del derecho de gentes, por el cual han de gobernarse las relaciones de unas potencias con otras, pues estando todas en la necesidad de auxiliarse mutuamente, y contribuir a la felicidad general, la naturaleza ha dictado ciertos principios que se llaman derecho de gentes natural. Las mismas naciones se presume que han consentido en otros principios, cuyas máximas también son consagradas al bien de la sociedad universal, y de aquí nace el derecho de gentes conocido entre los publicistas con el nombre de voluntario general; los diversos tratados que las naciones pueden celebrar, producen una nueva especie de derecho de gentes, que se dice convencional, y como es evidente que un tratado sólo obliga a las partes contratantes, este derecho no es universal sino particular; por último, hay ciertas máximas y prácticas que las naciones observan como un derecho de gentes, por haberlas consagrado al uso no interrumpido de largo tiempo, de las cuales se forma el derecho no escrito o la costumbre de las naciones.

Junta is used in the article without definition or link ... pick one? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:09, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Linked. Ergo Sum 21:16, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Kohlrabi PickleEdit

  • Though his presidency lasted a matter of several months before he fell ill and was sent to St. Inigoes, Maryland to recuperate, he garnered a reputation as a strict disciplinarian. I think this sentence has too many parts to make for comfortable reading. If the point is that he gained a reputation as a disciplinarian in a short period, does it add value to say that he was sent to St Inigoes to recuperate in the same sentence? Perhaps split the line into two?
    • Rephrased. Ergo Sum 17:45, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
      • It now feels slightly staccato to my ear. Hmm, how about this? In addition to this, the point about him being a disciplinarian indeed comes across as a feature of his presidency, because it immediately follows "although his presidency lasted only a matter of several months". Perhaps, something like this will help both: "As an educator, he garnered a reputation as a strict disciplinarian. A few months into his presidency, he fell ill and was sent to St Inigoes, Maryland, to recuperate, where he died in 1841." Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 01:15, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
        • I like that. I've tweaked it just slightly. Ergo Sum 03:16, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Though his presidency lasted a matter of several months This might be nitpicking, but “several” seems to me to convey length, like "many", even if in the context "many months" might not be long at all. I think your point instead is that his presidency was short. Perhaps “though his presidency lasted only a matter of several months”? Or remove “several”?
  • Shortly after resigning, he died in St. Inigoes in 1841. Perhaps, for ease of reading, “he died in St Inigoes in 1841, shortly after resigning”?
    • I've rephrased this sentence per above. Ergo Sum 17:46, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Can you elaborate on why he tried to arrest Miguel Hidalgo? I can’t tell whether this was some kind of citizen’s arrest, or else what authority he was acting under. Why did he flee to Valladolid?
    • The source doesn't explicitly say, but I infer that it was probably an extrajudicial arrest during a time of revolutionary turmoil. Ergo Sum 17:47, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Could you elaborate a little about his relationship with the future Empress? Was it romantic or pastoral? Or perhaps just friendly? It seems from the rest of the article that it was pastoral, but the lead section gives the impression that it was romantic. If that’s the case, then I’m confused as to why he was a close ally of the Emperor. Or else how it was compatible with him being a Catholic priest.
    • Sadly, "relationship" has been imbued with modern connotation. I've rephrased it to remove any ambiguity. Ergo Sum 17:49, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Was Lopez’s appointment to the chaplaincy of Iturbide’s counter-revolutionary army a promotion? Or was it the Emperor sending someone he disliked to the frontlines?
    • The source suggests that it was a moderately prestigious position to hold. I've rephrased to signify this. Ergo Sum 17:50, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
  • I think it would help very much to have historical context to all this. It may not be necessary to write it yourself, but at least to wikilink to the relevant articles on the subject. I see that you’ve linked the Liberal Triennium, which is helpful. But perhaps something more to explain his arrest of Hidalgo as well.
    • I'm not an expert in Mexican history, but I've provided the link to the Mexican War of Independence at the start of the discussion of his political/military associations. I'm not sure what else I could link to that might be helpful. Ergo Sum 17:55, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
      • Ah yes, I missed that! I think that is sufficient, but that it would be useful to fit in the words "Mexican War of Independence" and link that, to remove all doubt. e.g. " I think "Mexican independence" leaves just a tad too much ambiguity. It could be referring to a Mexican independence revolutionary at a different time in his life, or even some kind of mercenary from the independence era. It would be very helpful to make it clearer that this is taking place against the backdrop of the Mexican War of Independence. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 01:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
        • I think it should be quite clear now. Ergo Sum 03:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
  • I’m having some difficulty following the movements of the different people. Iturbide was exiled in 1823, and Lopez accompanied the whole family to Italy. They then all fled to England. In 1824, Lopez went to Mexico with Iturbide and his junta, but without the family. Iturbide is executed in 1824, and Lopez is presumably still in Mexico. The family flees to the US, presumably from England. How does Lopez accompany them to New Orleans if he is in Mexico? Does he meet them en route, or join them in New Orleans? Or does he travel to England to escort them?
    • I believe the family followed Iturbide to Mexico, before his death. Then they all traveled to the United States together. I've added that bit of clarification to the article. Ergo Sum 17:56, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Is there a wikilink that might explain what a “minister of the college” is? I’m not familiar.
    • I actually don't know what that is either. I've done a bit of digging but cant find anything. All I know is that it was a fairly senior position at Georgetown in the 19th century, and many other of Georgetown's presidents can be found holding this position prior to their appointment as president (which is mentioned in their respective articles). Ergo Sum 17:58, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
      • I suppose that's fine then. I found a book called "A Memoir of Ministry at Georgetown College" [2] but it just seems to describe being a minister at the Georgetown College chapel. Are we sure that this is not simply referring to Lopez being a minister and a librarian? "Librarian of the college" sounds like a rank or title, like general of the armies as opposed to a bog-standard army general. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 01:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
        • It wasn't a rank, but rather was a position of some prominence, since at that time, the college had only one librarian. Not long after, it would have one or two assistant librarians, even after it had become a large university. Ergo Sum 03:20, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Perhaps a slightly pedantic point, but was Lopez known as a disciplinarian only during his presidency, or throughout his time at Georgetown? The former is the impression I get from the lead section, but then I'd want to know what inspired the change.
    • It should be the latter. Does this not come across, since it is mentioned in the discussion of his presidency? Ergo Sum 17:59, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Is there any available information about the nature of his illness? Or perhaps any information that indicates whether it was anything out of the ordinary?
    • None that I can find. The records of his time in the US are rather skeletal. Ergo Sum 18:00, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
  • before all the graves there were reinterred in the cemetery adjoining St. Ignatius Church in the same village. This line has too many parts, I think. If the point is that he was ultimately reinterred elsewhere, then I think it should be split up.
  • Was Lopez's appointment cut short by illness, or because a successor had been found? The article says that he was a placeholder. If a replacement was ready by 1 May, then is it true that it was his illness that cut his appointment short? And was he sent to St Inigoes after he stepped down? In which case the lead section might need to be reworded. It gives the impression that it was his being sent to St Inigoes (and as a result being unable to perform his responsibilities) that led to his stepping down.
    • I think his term was cut short before a permanent replacement could be found. I've rephrased the lede so that this should be clearer. Ergo Sum 18:02, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
      • This is fine. Just another quick point which I missed in my first round. In One notable event that occurred during his tenure was the establishment of a literary society alongside the existing Philodemic Society, known as the Philonomosian Society, which replaced the Phileleutherian Society, the repetition of "philo-" words makes it read slightly comically. This is not a problem, per se, but I thought I would point it out to you anyway. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 01:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
        • I agree that it's not exceedingly elegant, but I don't see a way around it without being needlessly wordy. Ergo Sum 03:21, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

This is all from me, but otherwise beautifully written and neatly formatted. Despite the short length of the article, it makes for a remarkably engaging read. I'm expecting to support when these are addressed. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:26, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your very helpful comments, Kohlrabi Pickle. Ergo Sum 18:02, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
My pleasure, Ergo Sum. I have responded to a couple of the comments with some very minor points, and I added one more at the end. After these are addressed, the article should be good to go. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
@Kohlrabi Pickle: I believe I've taken a look at each. Ergo Sum 03:22, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

With that, I am very happy to support this article's candidacy for FA. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 04:20, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Coord noteEdit

Source review for reliability and formatting? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:18, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm adding this to the urgents list hoping for an outside third comprehensive review. @SandyGeorgia: --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:20, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I will look in again tomorrow, when home from cabin. I have not had time to check that all of the info from the Spanish-language sources that I thought should be included is actually there. Sorry! If I forget, please put a message on my talk page instead of pinging me ...pings get lost in the works ... I use my talk page to track work I need to do. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:57, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Source reviewEdit

- spotchecks not done

  • FN9: I think a student newspaper is reasonable for the claim that his son was a student, but I don't think the note warrants inclusion if this is the only source with that descriptor
    • Although it's not essential to the article, it does provide some context (e.g. that the Iturbides attended Georgetown, while Lopez would become an instructor there. Ergo Sum 03:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
      • Do any other sources describe Lopez as the first Hispanic president of an American university? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
        • I don't find any others that do. Ergo Sum 16:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
          • Suggest in that case removing the note. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
  • The Mendizabal source is missing full location. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:31, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
    • Added. Ergo Sum 02:56, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Comments from IanEdit

Recusing coord duties, I've copyedited a bit and will take Nikki's image and source reviews as read. Nothing jumps out, but I can't comment on possible Spanish sources. If no-one demonstrates a lack of comprehensiveness in reasonably short order this can be taken as support. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk)

Ealdgyth inquired if I had approved Spanish-language sources. It was so long ago, I forgot what exactly I had checked, so ...

The author of this article (Alfredo Ávila Rueda) is the same author as the journal article at http://www.scielo.org.mx/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0185-26202012000200005 I am uncertain if that citation is written correctly. Avila Rueda wrote the commentary, but also published all of Lopez's method of instruction. I don't know what author should be used in such a case ... so just noting that Avila Rueda is the same author.
The publisher of Relatos e Historias is a publisher attached to an archeological store. Their About us page is empty. They indicate at the bottom of the cited page ([3]) that they are reproducing this article on the web, which they published in hard copy ("El artículo "Josep Lopez" del autor Alfredo Ávila Rueda se publicó completo en esta página web como un obsequio a nuestros lectores. En su versión impresa lo encuentra en Relatos e Historias en México número 127"), so I think we can take it to be a reliable source, particularly since the same author published in a journal. There are perhaps some tidbits from that article that Ergo might want to include ... putting the translations here should you be interested ...
  • Add to the lead that he also used the name "Josep"?
    • Done. Ergo Sum 01:04, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
  • hoy en México, en su Michoacán natal, José Antonio López es prácticamente desconocido ... in present-day Michoacan, where Lopez was born, he is practically unknown
    • I don't know if his lack of notability is notable. Ergo Sum 01:05, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Miguel Hidalgo, was traveling through Michoacán in 1810, López unsuccessfully tried to arrest him, ... we need to attribute this claim to Lopez himself, per the source.
    • Done. Ergo Sum 01:31, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
  • "It is interesting for the history of Mexico that, from the beginning, López reported on the conflicts between the king of Spain and the liberals, and especially between the moderate and exalted liberals. Among other things, he warned that freedom of the press, discussions in the courts, patriotic societies and more radical groups (such as the comuneros and the carbonarios) could cause a civil war."
    • Is this not already captured by the statement about the Liberal Triennium? Ergo Sum 01:33, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
  • "The closeness of José Antonio López to Ana Huarte allowed him to have a privileged position in the domestic space of the person who had become the Liberator."
    • I've rephrased a sentence to include this. Ergo Sum 01:34, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
  • "López's educational proposal is very similar to the instructions that were drawn up for the Spanish princes, with an enormous weight of religion, as well as rhetoric and the humanities, without neglecting the sciences. He had a clearly anachronistic tone, since he sought to form a pious prince with his subjects, a good ruler and legislator, regardless of the regime that had been adopted in Mexico was that of a constitutional monarchy, in which the laws were made by a Congress and justice would be administered by a supreme court."
    • I think the info I recently added about constitutional monarchy address this.

That's it, I think the arrest claim should be attributed to him, and we should add his Josep name, the rest is optional, but seems to be noteworthy to me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:44, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, SandyGeorgia. Do you have any thoughts on my comments above? Ergo Sum 01:36, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
You got the most significant ... rest was your discretion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:49, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.