Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/James P. Hagerstrom/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 14 June 2020 [1].
James P. Hagerstrom edit
This article is about a U.S. Air Force fighter pilot who was a flying ace in both World War II and the Korean War. It passed a thorough MILHIST A-Class Review in 2018, and I believe it has only improved since then and meets the FA criteria. As this is my first FAC nom, Nick-D was gracious enough to mentor me through the process, and I hope to get the article to FA in time for it to run on TFA next January for the 100th anniversary of his birth. Enjoy! ~huesatlum/ 18:13, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support I posted a detailed informal review on the article's talk page at Talk:James P. Hagerstrom#Informal review last year. I've just read through the article again, and am confident that it meets the FA criteria. Nick-D (talk) 07:27, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Support Comments by Ian
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- Recusing coord duties, I reviewed and supported at the article's MilHist A-Class Review and have checked changes since then, copyediting as I went.
- I don't see anything about the circumstances of his being awarded the Silver Star, LoM, DFC and Air Medal... Not expecting full citations as for the DSC, but would've like to see brief statements during the narrative of when and why he received them. Incidentally, according to Sherwood (2000) p.4, the Silver Star was with five oak clusters.
- I added context for those awards. Regarding the Silver Star with five clusters, it seems Sherwood got that fact wrong, as I found several sources (Oliver & Lorenz 1999, p. 80; Inouye 1994; Hall of Valor) that only mention one Silver Star, and no others that say six. ~huesatlum/ 17:50, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Given this is the nominator's first FAC, I've spotchecked some sources for accurate use and avoidance of close paraphrasing:
- FN5: our article mentions “(which used coveralls and civilian uniforms due to the lack of standard uniforms)”; the source says “coveralls and a civilian suit” – I’d suggest that “civilian suit” sounds more like a business suit than any kind of uniform but in any case I don’t think we really need this level of detail and could safely lose the whole bit that’s in parentheses.
- FN18: okay although I tweaked wording slightly.
- FN45: mostly fine but don’t think the source clearly states it was the Chinese pilot’s own base, rather “the enemy airfield which was directly below the action”.
- FN48: okay.
- FN53: okay.
- FN59: okay.
- I performed a source review for reliability and formatting at the MilHist ACR and on a fairly quick glance things still look okay in that respect but I'll try and make another pass at that later to confirm.
Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:39, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- I've reviewed changes since I last looked and just tweaked a couple of things so happy to support. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:44, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Support by Wehwalt edit
- Seems very well written. Just a few comments.
- Are military history articles supposed to be day month year or month day year as this one is?
- If I'm reading it correctly, WP:MILDATE does seem to say that DMY should be used for military articles, but either way it says "Existing articles related to military history should follow MOS:DATERET as a default". ~huesatlum/ 19:42, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- The material he took to Korea. Were all these taken in the plane?
- Were there any repercussions from his continuing the chase into Chinese airspace on the 2/25/53 kill?
- "to start a fundraiser for Risner's bail," Bail? Were POWs available for release with cash?
- "of the Federated States of Micronesia," Well, as you mention Saigon by its former name, this should probably be the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands since that is what it was then.
Image review
- File:COMMAND_PILOT_WINGS.png: source link is dead. Same with File:Presidential_Unit_Citation_(South_Korea).svg
- File:United_Nations_Service_Medal_Korea_ribbon.svg: don't follow the tagging here - is this a US government work or is it not? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:56, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the review. I've replaced the two dead source links. Regarding United_Nations_Service_Medal_Korea_ribbon, it looks the uploader released their SVG file under CC-BY, and the file is a derivative work of the ribbon itself, which is PD. I'm no expert, so perhaps this is incorrect or invalid. ~huesatlum/ 03:24, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- The current tagging suggests the ribbon is a US federal government work, but based on United Nations Korea Medal it's not clear to me why that would be. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:16, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think you're right, it seems it was created by the United Nations, not the US. Do you think commons:Template:PD-US-no notice-UN would be more appropriate then? ~huesatlum/ 23:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Possibly, although it's not really a "document". Given the dates the copyright-expired tag should be sufficient for US status. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think you're right, it seems it was created by the United Nations, not the US. Do you think commons:Template:PD-US-no notice-UN would be more appropriate then? ~huesatlum/ 23:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- The current tagging suggests the ribbon is a US federal government work, but based on United Nations Korea Medal it's not clear to me why that would be. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:16, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the review. I've replaced the two dead source links. Regarding United_Nations_Service_Medal_Korea_ribbon, it looks the uploader released their SVG file under CC-BY, and the file is a derivative work of the ribbon itself, which is PD. I'm no expert, so perhaps this is incorrect or invalid. ~huesatlum/ 03:24, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
CommentsSupport by PM
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Interesting read. Well done on this so far. I have some comments:
- Lead and infobox
- the infobox caption should read "Hagerstrom with an F-86 Sabre in Korea, c. 1952" as it is unlikely he flew the one aircraft in Korea
- I would drop the Air Medal from the infobox as it is a common award
- suggest "and was posted to fight in the"→participated in the"
- suggest "There, he mainly escorted bombers flying P-40 Warhawks with the 8th Fighter Squadron" and link, as it is unlikely he flew the same aircraft on every mission, and given he flew with the single squadron, mentioning it in the lead is appropriate
- suggest "He later transferred to the USAF and flew F-86 Sabre fighter jets with the 18th Fighter-Bomber Wing in "MiG Alley", the nickname given to the area around the northern border of North Korea with China." then "During his service in Korea he shot down 8.5 Chinese, Soviet, and North Korean MiG-15s."
- the "30 combat missions" in Vietnam begs the question of what sort of aircraft and missions he flew.
- Body
- James Hagerstrom→James Philo Hagerstrom as his full name is in the lead and needs citation in the body
- "The family lived in
a small wooden house inWaterloo, Iowa" - were Iowa State Teachers College and Iowa State University different institutions at the time?
- Yes. The Teachers College is now University of Northern Iowa. However, I re-read the source and it is unclear where he did flight training, so I reflected that in the article. ~huesatlum/ 20:32, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- "which
usedwore coveralls" - "in basic flight training at the same time"
- "was commissioned as a second lieutenant"
- the caption should read "Hagerstrom flew the P-40 Warhawk in World War II."
- delete "Hagerstrom was temporarily given the duty of quarters officer, and he arranged for the group of forty second lieutenants to stay at the Mark Hopkins Hotel.", it really isn't encyclopaedic information
- "Port Moresby, Territory of Papua" and link
- Dobodura Airfield isn't near Moresby, it is about 140 klicks over the Owen Stanleys. Suggest "to Dobodura Airfield near Popondetta" and link the latter
- say the P-38 Lightning was also a fighter
- Hagerstrom was
givenawarded the Distinguished Flying Cross - "Tsili Tsili Airfield in the Territory of New Guinea" and link the latter
- "after two raids on August 15 and 16 that did little damage"
- "due to another enemy reconnaissance plane in the area"
- "the co-located P-38s to take off"
- "was sent to Australia for three weeks to recover."
- "P-38 Lightnings to escort bombers"
- the Ki-61 Tony is referred to as a Ki-61 Hien in the Victories table
- "He requested
to be inan assignment to a unit that flew jet aircraft" - in P-47 Thunderbolts→flying P-47 Thunderbolts
- "The couple were reunited"
- what aircraft did the 111th Fighter-Bomber Squadron fly?
- "special mirrored sunglasses that allowed him to see twice as far as normal" seems an extraordinary claim. Is there any explanation as to how sunglasses would permit him to see further? Surely binoculars would be required?
- the caption should read "Hagerstrom flew the F-86 Sabre in the Korean War."
- "propeller-driven F-51 Mustangs to
jetF-86s", as they were redesignated F-51 by this stage, as you have noted above, and we already know the F-86 was a jet - "on February 25 he was part of the 18th FBW's first patrol in Sabre jets" but hadn't he been flying F-86s with 18th FBW?
- "and
would bewas the only one from the 18th FBW" - link Chongchon River
- "Tachikawa Airfield in Japan"
- delete "Hagerstrom volunteered for extra flights on his days off, once flying under a pseudonym." as these things have already been relayed with reference to particular incidents
- "U.S. pilots were not allowed to attack planes on the ground" in China? Surely they were allowed to do so in North Korea?
- "and
headedcommanded the 450th Fighter-Day Squadron" if that is right? - "he advocated for retaining guns on fighter jets instead of replacing them with missiles" but weren't guns retained as well as missiles? This seems counter-factual.
- link Office of Inspector General (United States)
- what aircraft did the 8th Tactical Fighter Wing fly?
- same question about what sort of combat missions he flew in Vietnam and in what types of aircraft
- "The ambush of the VC" it doesn't seem to have been an ambush, more an air strike
- "using this to argue that air attacks cause fewer casualties than a war of attrition strategy with ground forces" I don't follow this at all, why would he promote the idea of causing fewer casualties on the enemy?
- full stop after Shreveport
- I think the list of the other dual aces is unnecessary, in any case William T. Whisner Jr. is duplinked. You could create a navigation template at the bottom of the article instead
- for consistency, I suggest adding the nickname for the Ki-46 to the table
- in the DSC citation "he caused it to burst into flames"
- Sources
- I have queries about the reliability of Hall of Valor and the need for using the Social Security Death Index (it is redundant, as Oliver & Lorenz 1999 has all the cited info)
- From the About page, Hall of Valor is curated by a Military Times editor, and they seem to have a solid verification process. Regarding the Death Index, I'd rather keep the birth date double-cited because one source incorrectly lists his birth date. ~huesatlum/ 20:32, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
That's me done. Nothing too drastic, mainly tweaks throughout to improve the grammar and enhance clarity. A couple of queries about claims/statements made. Well done so far. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:35, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed review. I believe I have responded to everything; if I didn't explicitly reply to a point, that means I accepted your suggestion. ~huesatlum/ 20:32, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- No worries. Nice work, supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:59, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Support from Gog the Mild edit
Nb: I intend to claim points in the WikiCup for this review.
This was the 10th article I ever copy edited for GoCE, back in my first month of being active on Wikipedia. It seems to have coped with the experience remarkably well. A few random comments.
- Oliver and Lorenz; Werrell: both need page ranges.
- In James P. Hagerstrom#Sources#Books these two citations need the page ranges of their chapters.
- Sherwood needs a publisher location. (Yes, I know it's obvious.)
- "he shot down 8.5 Chinese, Soviet, and North Korean MiG-15s" I am unconvinced that it is possible to shoot down 0.5 of an aircraft. This is phrased better in the main text.
- "Hagerstrom joined the rest of the 8th FS at Kila Airfield" Is it known when?
- "The 8th FS switched to escorting B-25 Mitchell and A-20 Havoc bombers but saw little action themselves. They saw more combat ..." Should the 8th FS not be 'It', not ""They"?
- I know the feeling - have have done similar rewordings myself.
- "most of the Japanese pilots in the sky" 1, "in the sky" seems a little informal, 2. does it add anything to the article?
- "he was instead made an instructor" Is it known when?
- "he was instructed ... in gunnery of the ... F-80 Shooting Star and F-86 Sabre" This reads a little oddly. What does it mean?
- "He got a pair of moccasin boots lined with felt, a silk-lined flight suit for winter insulation" → 'He got a pair of moccasin boots lined with felt and a silk-lined flight suit for winter insulation'.
- "to see with twice the visual acuity as normal" Is this acceptable AmericanEnglish? In British English it would be 'to see with twice the visual acuity of normal'.
- "(including 10 pounds [4.5 kg] of rice) The MoS suggests that "[4.5 kg]" should be '(4.5 kg)'.
Gog the Mild (talk) 15:45, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your copy edits then and your comments now. I have responded to them. ~huesatlum/ 02:30, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- A couple of comments on your responses above. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:04, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- A fine piece of work and well up to the FA criteria. Happy to support. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:18, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- A couple of comments on your responses above. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:04, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.