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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jack Verge/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 03:13, 22 July 2016 [1].

Jack Verge

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Nominator(s): FunkyCanute (talk) 13:04, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Jack Verge, an Australian international rugby player who died while on active service in the Gallipoli Campaign in WWI. FunkyCanute (talk) 13:04, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. A minor point: I'm not sure if the military history tag makes sense on this article. I've asked the question at WT:MIL#Jack_Verge. - Dank (push to talk) 15:19, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hawkeye and Nikki disagree, so the tag is probably fine. - Dank (push to talk) 23:18, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • As always, feel free to revert my copyediting.
  • "a treat to witness" (x2): See WP:INTEXT. Anything in quote marks needs to be attributed in the text ... or paraphrased, or deleted, which would probably be better here.
  • "the second XI", "taking two for 22": Articles that pass FAC generally show up for one day at WP:TFA, and a summary of the article will be the first thing that 10 million readers will see that day. Most of those who go on to read the article won't know what you're talking about. Be kind to your readers.
  • "Slow bowler.": Not a sentence. Combine and link it.
  • "Blarney", "Spragg", "Wickham": I'm guessing these are last names. Do you know the first names?
  • No, Yes, Yes. Added to first encounter plus wikilink. FunkyCanute (talk) 16:45, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "played a game at full back ...": INTEXT.
  • I got about halfway through it, down to 1904 season. I may come back and support on prose, later. - Dank (push to talk) 00:52, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your edits all look good. I haven't been able to find out what "threequarter Blarney" means. - Dank (push to talk) 16:59, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've reworked this sentence; threequarter is wikilinked earlier in the section. FunkyCanute (talk) 09:46, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Verge took the catch at pace and ran for the corner but was pushed into touch", "threequarter C.": Kindness needed.
  • My guess is other reviewers are going to want you to trim some details and game commentary. That's not my department, though.
  • Otherwise, Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 08:50, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Jack_Verge.jpg needs a US PD tag, as does File:NSW_Officers_1914.jpg
  • File:1904_Lions_in_NZ.jpg needs a US PD tag, and if the creator is unknown how do we know they died over 70 years ago

Also a general note on sources while I'm here: NLA's "Wikipedia" citation results in a lot of junk data in the output - the location and date range held aren't part of the newspaper name, and the location of the original publication isn't the same as the location of the "publishing" library. These will need tidying. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:38, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've started on this, but it's soul-destroying, so I'll come back and finish later. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:10, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
All cleared up now. FunkyCanute (talk) 09:35, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I only looked superficially at this stage, but over all it looks pretty good. Rugby isn't my game, though, so not sure I can accurately gauge the content. I have the following suggestions (all very minor): AustralianRupert (talk) 22:55, 3 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, AustralianRupert. I've made a few quick edits and will come back and complete. FunkyCanute (talk) 19:14, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • per MOS:ALLCAPS the titles of the newspaper articles such as "FIRST GRADE TEAMS" should be "First Grade Teams" or "First grade teams"
  • I think a little more context could be added to the Military service section, for instance you could mention what war he fought in, and who the forces at Gallipoli were fighting against, and why they were sent there (it probably wouldn't need much more than a short sentence or two in this regard).
  • perhaps mention that the light horse units were sent as reinforcements after the initial landing
  • "threequarter — and captain — Lonnie Spragg": per WP:DASH the emdashes should not be spaced here;
  • inconsistent initials, compare: "C. A. Verge" v "AJ McKenzie"
  • "England aboard the RMS Mongolia on 25 May 1907": --> RMS Mongolia

Comments. Not a regular FACer and don't follow rugby that closely, but this caught my eye for some reason.

  • "against a touring British Isles team, in Sydney, on 2 July 1904" wouldn't bother with that first comma, don't think you'd take a pause there
  • Done a bit of a copyedit here. No way he could have won both his caps on one day! FunkyCanute (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "relatively light compared with other contenders for his position" were there really people contending for his position? Maybe "contemporaries"? ... Ah, just read further on, makes more sense now, but wouldn't be opposed to tacking on something like "in the NSW and Australian team"
  • I don't feel this is really necessary. Why wouldn't there be contenders for fullback? And indeed there were. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, I've muddled myself on this one, should have just removed it once I'd read further. Please disregard. Jenks24 (talk) 07:49, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not clear that St Paul's College is a college at USyd, sounds almost like it's a later institution he studied at
  • I like the change, only quibble is should it be "residing at" rather than "resident at"? I'm honestly not sure. Jenks24 (talk) 07:49, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of the First Australian Imperial Force in October 1914 attached to the" I'd have a comma before attached
  • "He passed his first year of medicine in 1901" is this really necessary? I'd just cut it down to "He graduated in 1904."
  • "University 2 against Balmain 2" is "2" the standard form in rugby? I would have assumed reserves/seconds or even "II"
  • I believe standard practice is to link terms like runs and wickets on first usage because they can be confusing to non-Commonwealth readers
  • "Inter-State" shouldn't be capitalised
  • "at the University Oval, Sydney" don't think "the" is correct there
  • "inside the Queensland 25" any way this can be reworded to be more universal? Something like "within 25 yards(?) of the Queensland goal line"
  • "chased fast after it" would change "fast" to "quickly" (or similar)
  • I think I was reading it as an adjective when it's actually being used as an adverb. For some reason it still sounds a little clunky to my ears, but I have nothing reasonable to back that feeling up with, so leave it as you think is best. Jenks24 (talk) 07:49, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The score at the break was 4–3" sorry, but in whose favour?
  • "Wickham dropped a goal" isn't "kicked a drop goal" the more common language?
  • Are there relevant links for South Sydney and Western Suburbs by any chance?
    • Guess not, that's OK. As a complete aside, it would be fascinating if someone ever wrote late 19th/early 20th century rugby clubs in Sydney in some depth. I think with most RL clubs claiming 1908 as their formation a lot of that earlier history has gone missing. Jenks24 (talk) 07:49, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had a bit of a nosey around this topic last year. There's a lot of material in the NLA digital archives, if you're prepared to hack your way through it, and piece it all together article by article. It was a sidetrack for me, as I'm really focussed on the rugby players KIA in WWI, at the moment. FunkyCanute (talk) 14:16, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "So the selectors for NSW" the "so" is unnecessary
  • "Verge's good game" any other word we can use instead of "good"? It doesn't tell the reader a lot
    • I was going to harp on this, but having glanced at the source I see they said he was "good" as well, so I think this can stay as is. I blame a teacher I once had who used to get stuck into me every time I used "good" or "nice" in my writing. Jenks24 (talk) 07:49, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for its part," doesn't add anything, should be removed
  • Changed to "in contrast", which is the point I'm making. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah, gotcha. Makes sense to me now. Jenks24 (talk) 07:49, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They were proving very quick" I'd add "to be" between proving and quick, sounds a bit odd otehrwise
  • "dominated by the home team, with Britain forced to defend, and prevented Australia from scoring" would change it to something like "dominated by the home team; Britain were forced to defend, and prevented Australia from scoring"
  • "Verge's kicking, on this occasion, was good" again, not sure "good" gives us much, would prefer something like "Verge kicked well on this occasion, according to Joe Bloggs/whatever newspaper"
  • "Verge did not play in the third test but returned to play for the University team" why did he not play in the third test? Surely he didn't prefer to play at a lower level instead
  • "Both Dr A Verge, as he was then styled in the match lists" seems like puffery, I'd reword to simply "Both Verge"
  • "which the home side won 21–0 easily"--> "which the home side won easily, 21–0"
  • "brought in at five-eighths" isn't it five-eighth?
  • "Although Otago again came away the winners, 6–3, no points were scored in the first half, although the visitors came close to getting a try but were held up on the line." this reads oddly, I'd go with "No points were scored in the first half, although the visitors came close to getting a try but were held up on the line. Otago scored (maybe not the right word) 6–3 in the second half to again come away winners."
  • "Verge was attached to the 1st Australian Division, landing on 20 May, just after the failed Turkish attack on Anzac Cove" rather than running on with it, I'd split this into two sentences "Verge was attached to the 1st Australian Division. They landed on 20 May, just after the failed Turkish attack on Anzac Cove"

I'm probably being pedantic on something, feel free to disagree with anything. Overall I think it's a really nice article, most of these are very minor quibbles. Jenks24 (talk) 17:07, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jenks24, thanks very much for the review. I hope you don't mind if I take a few days to respond, while we digest real world events here in the UK. FunkyCanute (talk) 09:07, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, take as long as you need. Jenks24 (talk) 10:11, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for going through it in so much detail, Jenks24. Good and fair comments, and I've made a number of revisions. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for all your changes, FunkyCanute, and I agree with the ones you've left (see further responses in line above). Looking through the sources, I thought I'd make a few comments about those too, if that's alright. For reference I'm talking about this revision. Jenks24 (talk) 07:49, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • #2 needs an access date
  • #3 no page number
  • #5 no page number
  • #12 is there something more we can give here about how you accessed this (e.g. website/URL?), I'm assuming you didn't go in person but could be wrong
  • #34, #36 no page number, no access date
  • #50 what's with the "(2623)", you don't have it for the other Otago Witness refs
  • #54 seems like a stray comma after the volume number
  • #71 no access date
  • #74 same thing with #50
  • #76, #77, #78 no page number, no access date
  • #79, #80 no access date
  • biblio: use location for both or neither

Again, only minor things. Referencing on the whole was solid, all to reliable sources. Jenks24 (talk) 07:49, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jenks24, thanks, and all done. And I've added a couple of comments further up. FunkyCanute (talk) 14:16, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your responses. I've just had another re-read of the article and everything looks in order to me, so I'm happy to support. For the benefit of the FAC delegates, I should say I haven't looked at any image licensing and haven't checked for close paraphrasing. But everything else (well written, comprehensive without being overly detailed, consistent citations, etc.) I'm happy to support on. Jenks24 (talk) 16:07, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Great! Thank you! FunkyCanute (talk) 20:17, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • In the rugby career section, would be it possible to add first names for the other players, when available? For example, we have an article on John Maund, who might be the player we call Maund here.
  • Yes, I think I've now added all the ones available. FunkyCanute (talk) 13:14, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The British Isles tour of Australia: The last paragraph is a bit stubby at one sentence. Would it be possible to merge it with the previous paragraph?
  • End of rugby career: Per MOS:DOCTOR, the use of "Dr" at the start of the last paragraph is a style violation. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:34, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Giants2008. Very helpful. FunkyCanute (talk) 13:14, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Sarastro

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Oppose for the moment: I've been meaning to have a look at this for a while, and it looks in pretty good shape. However, there are quite a few little prose issues so that I don't think we're quite there yet. I've done some light copy-editing so far.

  • "Although he was relatively light compared with other contenders for his position, he was repeatedly praised for his tackling": I understand that the weight of a rugby player would affect his ability as a tackler, the general reader might not; in any case, the two parts of this sentence seem jammed together a little uncomfortably. And "contenders" doesn't seem like the right word. Some kind of rephrasing needed I think. Furthermore, I can't find this information directly stated in the main body.
  • I've now revised this statement, and given a more balanced and thorough appraisal of his skill. FunkyCanute (talk) 19:21, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After graduating, he practised as a specialist in skin disease": Again, I can't find this in the main body but maybe I'm being stupid.
  • "He embarked from Sydney for Alexandria, Egypt": This doesn't sound quite right. He could embark for Alexandria, but would it not be simpler just to have "He travelled from Sydney to Alexandria"?
  • Agreed, but travelled sounds like a holiday. I've edited the paragraph. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:07, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second paragraph of the lead has three out of the last four sentences beginning "He". We also have two lots of "where he" in close proximity.
  • "He attended the King's School, Parramatta, where many of Australia's rugby players were schooled": This is a little tricky. As written, it looks like this was something that has always been the case, but it comes from a 1913 source. Also, I initially read it to mean the national rugby team, but the source simply seems to list teams that "old boys" play for. I think a little rephrase is needed.
  • The second paragraph of early life reads horribly; why do we need to hear about the lives of his family? This reads like padding. We have successive sentences beginning "his, his, he, he" but I'm struggling to see the relevance.
  • "In his second year he began to be noticed, especially for his defensive play": Noticed by who?
  • "University II against Balmain II": I think we need to spell out what II means here.
  • I disagree... This has changed a few times, depending on the personal preference of the review. The notation is standard. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:07, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and it was reckoned that he was as good a cricketer as a rugby player": This reads clumsily, and "reckoned" is not really formal enough for an encyclopaedia.
  • We are getting more sentences that all begin with "he", and a scan through the rest of the article makes me think we might have a few problems with repetitive sentence structures. It might be worth taking a look at this.
  • I don't see all the sentences beginning with 'he', unless you're referring to the final paragraph of the lengthy rugby career section, which contained three; just the one now. As for repetitive sentence structures, please be more specific, since I've used a fair range of them, but undoubtedly in a substantial article, they might be repeated. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:07, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

More to come, but I think this still needs a bit of work and possibly a full copy-edit. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:46, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for looking at this in depth. However, I think 'a full copy-edit' is possibly an exaggeration, but I'd appreciate any further pointers you might have. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:07, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sarastro1, all comments now handled. FunkyCanute (talk) 19:21, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments: Sorry, the oppose stands. I apologise for taking so long, but real life is a bit hectic right now. I've glanced at the changes since I commented above, and I notice that the point about him being light is still not mentioned in the main body, but only in the lead. I'm not entirely sure that the other changes are improvements either. For example, we now have "he began to be noticed by the rugby press, both for his defensive play and kicking skills". This is still clumsy; what about "he attracted press attention for his defensive play and kicking skills" or "the press praised his defensive play and kicking" (Do we need "skills"?) Also, I've took a quick look at the whole "rugby career" section and noticed these points.

  • Consecutive sentences begin with "In"; three consecutive sentences begin with "he"; the whole structure is repetitive with "In XXXX, he [verb]"
  • "He also played cricket at University, initially for the second team,[17] and he was considered to be as good a cricketer as he was at rugby": We could cut "also". Who considered him to be as good? Everyone? One newspaper report? Critics? His team-mates? Why is University capitalised here? "considered to be as good a cricketer as he was at rugby" lacks a little elegance.
  • "and at one time, he was the most successful bowler at the University": When? In what sense? Wickets? Average? Economy rate? How many games did he play? We need some sense of how good he was rather than the article just stating it.
  • "Verge was up for selection to the University first XV, either at fullback or threequarter, and also for NSW as fullback": Up for selection is not really encyclopaedic. What about "in contention for selection" or "in contention for a place in..."? Putting his university and NSW places together in this sentence does not really work as we don't mention NSW again until the end of the paragraph.
  • "He took the place at fullback on the University XV from A. J. McKenzie": Who? Why did he take his place? What convinced the selectors?
  • "By June 1902, Verge was gaining recognition in the press": This needs expanding; what did they say? If this refers to the quote from The Referee in the following sentence, this whole sentence is rather unnecessary. If others reports said the same thing, we need to know. And "gaining recognition" looks like they simply knew what he looked like!

I'm going to stop there, but I could give a whole list, and this is just examples from one section. I don't really want to give a line-by-line review because I believe there is too much to address here. That is not to say that article is in a bad shape, but I still think the prose needs a lot of work to give it that final polish. I think we are struggling on criteria 1a ("its prose is engaging and of a professional standard") and I would again recommend a full copy-edit. Sarastro1 (talk) 12:34, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment -- It concerns me to hear suggestions of a full copyedit in a nom open this long so we clearly still have a way to go before consensus to promote, regardless of earlier supports. I'm therefore going to archive and suggest a PR before renominating at FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:12, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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