Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hubert Walter
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:35, 30 May 2008 [1].
Self-nom I'm nominating this article for featured article because it's expanded greatly from where it was when I first started editing, I've worked hard to ensure that only relible scholarly sources are used, and while it still lacks a picture of the man himself or his tomb, it is actually illustrated. All aspects of his life are covered, from his start under Henry II to his coronation of King John. This is a very significant individual in English history, who unfortunately doesn't figure largely in most folks' memory. He's been really fun to write about, though. It's very kindly been copy-edited by Karanacs and Malleus, to remove my weasely academic writing! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Daft comment. Who's going to do the source checking? ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
- I'm not sure about the MOS on this, but isn't generally "circa" abbreviated to "c." and then linked to circa?
- Both American and British spelling are present in the article.
- Aren't centuries supposed to be linked when they're relevant? They seem to be relevant here.
- "Walter served King Henry II of England in many different ways, not only in financial administration." - should that be a semicolon? As usual, I'm not sure, and too cowardly to be bold.
- "Walter accompanied King Richard on the Third Crusade and was one of the principal persons involved in raising Richard's ransom after the king had been captured in Germany while returning home." - "had been" sounds awkward. Maybe "was" instead?
- "He also served as Richard's justiciar until 1198, in which role he was responsible for raising the money Richard needed to prosecute his wars in France." - "in which role" -> "a role in which"?
I only checked the lead - that especially should be spotless of awkward/incorrect grammar since most readers read only the lead. If I'm brave enough to tackle the entire text (read: have an inordinate amount of spare time), I might do that. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 00:58, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sources check (teeheehee)
- Everything looks good, actually. According to [2], [3] needs registration. That's allowed, though, so all seems good. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, it does, but it's also a printed work, so the link is a courtesy link. I'm told that most folks in the UK get free access through their library. I guess I should have put registration required in it too, but I'm not sure the cite encyclopedia has that field. (ponders) Ealdgyth - Talk 14:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I've been bold and addressed my own issues, [4]. Please check that I haven't done anything stupid. Could you make clearer what aspect of Salisbury was deemed to be a reward, (Salisbury was a town), and I didn't like the expression while on crusade, but couldn't think of a better one. An engaging, comprehensive and well-written article, thanks. GrahamColmTalk 11:28, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I will gladly expand the Salisbury bit, (it's the diocese in this instance, it's medievalist jargon to just refer to the diocese by shorthand like that. We know by context that a bishopric is meant since he's a cleric.) I'm not too fond of "while on Crusade" either, but "while over in the Holy Land killing infidels" which is how they would have described their activiy isn't exactly a NPOV statement (and rightly so, I might add). Ealdgyth - Talk 14:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Great prose, referenced throughout and good layout/usage of suitable photos. Very nice work, Ealdgyth. Keep it up. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 19:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I conducted a pre-FAC review at Eagldyth's invitation, and all issues I found have been addressed. The article seems extremely comprehensive considering the scarcity of records of the time period. Karanacs (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. As with Karanacs, Ealdgyth invited me to carry out a pre-FAC review. All the issues I raised have been addressed to my satisfaction. I believe that this comprehensive article meets the FA criteria. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:40, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I couldn't resist a few tweaks, please check that you're happy. I'm impressed that Firefox's in-line spell check picked up archepiscopal as a typo! jimfbleak (talk) 07:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I have added links etc. Personally I would prefer the lead rearranged into a overall summary para, then the more detailed ones. You read a long way before finding out he was Lord Chancellor. Johnbod (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments A very interesting article! It was a pleasure to read. I have just a few questions; I was hoping that some further explanations could be added into the article for readers like myself who are largely ignorant of this period in history. Also, a few sections of the article could benefit from some rewriting to make them flow a bit better.
Hubert Walter (c. 1160–13 July 1205) was chief justiciar of England and archbishop of Canterbury in the late twelfth and early thirteenth centuries. - Should the opening sentence better express his notability? I don't know much about this period in history and I read this sentence as "he was a government functionary". (Note: That I'm American might have something to do with this!)
- Hm. I could say "Hubert Walter (c. 1160-13 July 1205) in the late twelfth and early thirteenth century was chief justiciar, one of the principal royal advisors, and archbishop of Canterbury, the highest ecclesiastical office in England." but I'm worried it's getting too long and drawn out that way. I can see not understanding the chief justiciar, but do I need to explain Archbishop? Ealdgyth - Talk 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- See my comment above. You certainly need to mention he was Lord Chandellor in the first ?500 words. Much of the stuff in the last para of the lead would be better in the first. Johnbod (talk) 10:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What about something like "Hubert Walter (c. 1160-13 July 1205) was an influential royal adviser in the late twelfth and early thirteenth centuries in the positions of chief justiciar of England, archbishop of Canterbury, and Lord Chancellor". - or something like that? Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- See my comment above. You certainly need to mention he was Lord Chandellor in the first ?500 words. Much of the stuff in the last para of the lead would be better in the first. Johnbod (talk) 10:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Walter served King Henry II of England in many different ways, not just in financial administration. - Could we briefly suggest what these ways were?
Walter's mother died at West Dereham in Norfolk, probably the location of Walter's birth, some time between 1150 and 1160. - This makes it seem like her death is related to his birth in some way. Is that intended?
- It's more that her death place shows the likely spot where he was born. Reworded to "Walter's mother died at West Dereham in Norfolk, some time between 1150 and 1160, and this gives a possible place of Walter's birth." which hopefully expresses this better. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry - I still don't see why where his mother died should suggest where he was born. Did she die around the time he was born? Did she die during childbirth? I feel like some information is missing here. Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The source for that information seems to think it's connected, but I will just take it out. Reworded to "Walter's family was from West Dereham in Norfolk, which is probably where Walter was born." Ealdgyth - Talk 19:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry - I still don't see why where his mother died should suggest where he was born. Did she die around the time he was born? Did she die during childbirth? I feel like some information is missing here. Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's more that her death place shows the likely spot where he was born. Reworded to "Walter's mother died at West Dereham in Norfolk, some time between 1150 and 1160, and this gives a possible place of Walter's birth." which hopefully expresses this better. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He was appointed Dean of York by order of King Henry II about July 1186.[1] The archbishopric had been vacant since 1181 and would remain so until 1189, so it was Walter's job as dean to administer the archbishopric - The archbishopric of York?
Walter also was an unsuccessful candidate to become Archbishop of York in September 1186 - Do we know why?
In 1187 Walter, along with Glanvill and King Henry II, attempted to mediate a dispute between the Archbishop of Canterbury, Baldwin of Exeter, and the monks of the cathedral chapter. - a dispute about what?
- Again, I can attempt to explain, but at this point, it's probably shorter to leave it out. It was a dispute between the monks of the cathedral chapter and Baldwin over Baldwin's desire to found a non-monastic church staffed by canons which would be in Canterbury itself, and in honor of Saint Thomas Becket. The monks of the cathedral chapter were scared that this was the first step of an attempt to either remove the relics of Thomas from the cathedral to the new foundation, thus depriving the monks of a very large source of income, or an attempt to remove the monks from the cathedral chapter and replace them with canons. Some (about half, including Canterbury) English cathedrals up until the Reformation were uniquely served by monks, and not the canons that were usual on the continent. English monastic cathedral chapters were always scared that they would be replaced by canons and this could lead to some rather heated disputes between the cathedral chapter and its nominal head, the bishop/archbishop. Still want me to include this information? Ealdgyth - Talk 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the first paragraph of "Justiciar", is there a way to briefly describe the wars? What were they about?
When John showed no signs of submitting, Walter called an ecclesiastical council at Westminster for the purposes of excommunicating John unless he submitted - What happened with this? Did John submit? I felt like I was left hanging.
In foreign affairs, Walter negotiated peace with Scotland in 1195 and with the Welsh in 1197. In 1196, Walter quickly suppressed a popular uprising in London led by William Fitz Osbern. - Can this paragraph be expanded? A bit of context added, perhaps? Why did peace need to be negotiated with Scotland and Wales, for example? Why was there a popular uprising? Etc.
According to the Life of William Marshal, when word reached William Marshal, one of the richest and most influential barons, that Richard was dead, he consulted with Walter and discussed whom to support as the next king. - Could we add a date for the Life?
I take it that the diplomatic missions to France in 1201 and 1204 were unsuccessful? Perhaps this could be made a bit more explicit?
The last paragraph of the "Death and legacy" section sort of trails off. I wasn't really sure what the relevance of the authorship debate was.
The "Early life" section is a bit choppy. It just seems like a list of facts that are only tangentially related. Could some flow be added to this paragraph? In particular, could the information about the aunt and uncle be narrated a bit more clearly?
- I've moved the information on the aunt and uncle to after the fact that Glanvill helped out Theobald and Hubert's career. Hopefully that'll make things flow better. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraphs in both the "Early assignments" and "Under John" sections are a bit disconnected from each other. Is there any way to provide smooth transitions between the paragraphs within these sections?
Sometimes Walter is referred to as "Hubert". Is there a reason for this?
I hope these suggestions are helpful. Awadewit (talk) 17:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Awadewit, I'm on the road, so I'll try to hopefully take care of most of these tomorrow night, when (cross your fingers) I'll set up at the client's place. I'll have to take some time on those, since some of the questions need me to dig into the books that are packed into the car. Just wanted you to know I saw it and they look dealable, just need to not be on the road. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Just a few comments.
- What does "he disciplined the monks between the death of Henry de Sully and the election of John of Coutances" mean? And what were the "ecclesiastical abuses"?
- Is there supposed to be a space in "FitzOsbern"?
- Is there a better way to say, "Walter was the butt of jokes..."?
- In the References section, you may want to add OCLC numbers for books printed before ISBN became a standard. To facilitate this, there is an oclc parameter in the {{cite book}} template which will then provide weblinks to the World Cat entry.
Another bishop down, how many more to go? :) --RelHistBuff (talk) 11:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]