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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Endless Night (song)/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14 January 2019 [1].

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 08:27, 17 January 2019 [2].

Endless Night (The Lion King song) edit

Nominator(s): Aoba47 (talk) 00:58, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone. The above article is about a song written for the musical The Lion King, a stage adaptation of Disney's 1994 animated film of the same name. Jason Raize, who originated the role of Simba for the Broadway production, first performed and recorded "Endless Night"; his version is included on the original cast recording. In the ballad, Simba grieves the death of his father Mufasa. The song includes vocals by a chorus that encourages Simba to move forward. Reception to the song was mainly positive. "Endless Night" has been performed in different contexts outside the show.

I admit that the article was unprepared for the previous FAC, though I believe that it now meets the requirements for a featured article. I would greatly appreciate any feedback. I hope that everyone has a wonderful rest of their day and/or night! Aoba47 (talk) 00:58, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from MaranoFan edit

  • "Endless Night" is a song written by composers Lebo M., Hans Zimmer, and Jay Rifkin." - Why is Julie Taymor's name missing from this sentence and only mentioned later if she is a credited writer?
  • "Mark A. Brymer was the composer, Mark Mancina produced it." - This reads a bit confusingly since apparently this song's lyricists were also composers. I would reword it to "Mark A. Brymer composed it, with production from Mark Mancina."
  • "In "Endless Night"—a ballad—" - Just my opinion but the dashes here are a bit cluttery. They could easily be eliminated by using "Endless Night is a ballad that lyrically deals with Simba grieving about the death of his father Mufasa."
  • "The song includes vocals by Rafiki" - Should it be mentioned which actor portrayed Rafiki and provided the vocals? Because I know this movie has probably been adapted several times with different people portraying the character.
  • It would not make sense in this context as multiple actors portrayed this character over the course of the production's history. Aoba47 (talk) 06:36, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The music for "Endless Night" was written by" - "The music for" should be removed since its redundant. Everyone who read the lead section already knows we're talking about a song/music. As for the arranger just continue with "with musical arrangement by Mark A. Brymer"
  • The music and the lyrics are two different things. Julie Taymor wrote the lyrics, but all of the people mentioned in this sentence did the music so I think it is important to include the clarification for the reader. Aoba47 (talk) 06:36, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hey Aoba47, perhaps you could change "wrritten by" to "composed by"? 'Compose' in a theatrical context means 'write the music for'.--Coin945 (talk) 11:00, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Looking back on the writing process, Taymor said" - "Reflecting on the writing process" is probably better wording
  • "The Walt Disney Company released the soundtrack on November 14" - If we're going with "Walt Disney" here, then it should be "Walt Disney" instead of just "Disney" in the infobox too. Either way is fine but consistency.
  • "A sample of the song "Endless Night"." - Again, we can remove "the song" here since if someone has read this far, they know we're talking about a song.
  • "while accompanied by chants by Rafiki and a chorus" - Repetition of "by" here. A way to fix this would be to say "while accompanied by chants from Rafiki and a chorus"
  • It goes for this section too that the person who voices Rafiki on this song should be mentioned.
  • It would not make sense in this context as multiple actors portrayed this character over the production's history. Aoba47 (talk) 06:36, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nick Afoa performed "Endless Night" in 2013 for his audition for Simba for an Australian production of The Lion King." - Repetition of "for" here, could be reworded to "Nick Afoa performed "Endless Night" in 2013 during his audition for Simba for an Australian production of The Lion King."
  • I don't know if Broadway World is a suitable source for featured level content tbh. I'm always iffy even just using it in general, but don't remove it though because I don't think its considered an unreliable source. Its a subsidiary of the John Gore Organization so its probably reliable.
  • I think that it should be reliable. Here is the link to the about page, which shows there is editorial oversight. Aoba47 (talk) 06:47, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're using this as a source but it was uploaded by a random unverified account called 'Benjamin Rauhala' and I'm 99% sure this is not considered suitable in general let alone for featured content. Besides, if a performance isn't covered by a reliable source then its inclusion is WP:UNDUE and you can remove it anyway.
  • Removed and replaced with a better source. Aoba47 (talk) 06:47, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Once my concerns are addressed I'll go through the article again and support if everything looks great. Regards.--NØ 05:49, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • @MaranoFan: Thank you for the review! I believe that I have addressed everything. Have a great start to your week! Aoba47 (talk) 06:47, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fine with the changes. This has my support for promotion!--NØ 08:02, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Homeostasis07 edit

Hi Aoba47. After spending the last few hours reading the article, I have a couple of comments:

  • In 'Context and composition', it might be best to remove "chords" from "its instrumentation is provided by a piano, chords, a synthesizer, a guitar, and drums.", since 'chords' relates solely to the actual melody being played, and not to the instrumentation. You might also be able to remove all the a's in the sentence, because it could flow better with just 'piano, synthesizer, guitar and drums.' Another thing which jumped out at me in this section: there's a bit of overuse of the word "chorus", especially since it's being used in reference to both choir and refrain. Maybe just use "choir" instead of "chorus"?
  • Makes sense. I changed the instrumentation sentence according to your suggestion, and swapped out a majority of the chorus mentions for choir. There is currently only use of chorus in the article, though it is referencing song structure. Aoba47 (talk) 21:58, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I love how you've arranged 'Critical reception', and how each paragraph manages to focus on a specific aspect of the song's reception. One thing this section did remind me of, though, was some advice I received during one of my own FAs—how most people end up reading "said" as though it were an invisible word, so don't be afraid to use that instead of all the synonyms... "described", "cited", "wrote", etc. Specifically, I'm referring to the line "Eric Andrews ... cited "Endless Night" as the "shining moment" for Simba." Maybe just: "Eric Andrews... said "Endless Night" was the "shining moment" for Simba", since "cited" doesn't really make sense there anyway.
  • That makes sense to me. I remember receiving this same note years ago during a creative writing course actually. I have swapped out two instances in the article, including the one that you mentioned above. Aoba47 (talk) 21:58, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

These are all minor quibbles, since it's already a well-written and informative article. Regardless of these suggestions being implemented, I'm happy to support this article for promotion. Good luck Aoba, and happy new year. Homeostasis07 (talk) 18:10, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ArturSik edit

My only suggestion would be to stretch the film's wikilink in the lead to "1994 animated film of the same name". Also, I wondered if maybe it would be a good idea to move the sentence about other language versions of the song and the karaoke version to 'other versions' section. Other than that the article is beautifully written and well sourced. Well done. ArturSik (talk) 17:43, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • @ArturSik: Thank you for the comments. I have addressed both of them. Hope you had a great weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 03:42, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support this now that my comments have been addressed:) Great job! ArturSik (talk) 04:51, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Aoba47 (talk) 05:24, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source/Image review by David Fuchs edit

  • References check out via Checklinks, and are properly formatted and archived where appropriate.
  • What makes BroadwayWorld.com a high-quality, reliable source? Likewise, Seattle Gay News?
  • BroadwayWorld.com has evidence of editorial oversight here on the website. Seattle Gay News has the same [3] here on their website. Aoba47 (talk) 23:08, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's helpful, but it still doesn't signify to me that they're particularly noteworthy or the best sources possible. Have they been quoted or referenced by other reliable sources? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 17:15, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @David Fuchs: I have removed the Seattle Gay News source as it was just a review and there are other reviews in that part already so it is not entirely necessary. For the BroadwayWorld sources, the site's CEO received an award from The Theatre Museum according to this source. The website was mentioned in two sources from The New York Times (1 and 2). According to the second AfD on the BroadwayWorld article, both these The Los Angeles Times sources (3 and 4), with the first one calling it "an indispensable resource" . It is on newspapers.com so I do not have access to them, though I have no reason to doubt the user who posted them. It also been cited by Business Insider and The Des Moines Register and The Washington Post. Aoba47 (talk) 23:03, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I leave it to others to decide for themselves, but that seems like enough justification for its inclusion. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 13:57, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I appreciate that you asked, as it is always important to check. Aoba47 (talk) 16:57, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spot-checked statements attributed to current refs 1, 5, 6, 11, 12, 19, 23, 26, and 40. I did not spot any issues with unattributed/misattributed statements.
  • I'm not sure why ref 6 is used, as ref 5 covers the ten new songs for the musical production detail and ref 6 is besides a stray mention talking about The Little Mermaid.

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:21, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • @David Fuchs: Thank you for the source and image reviews. I believe that I have addressed your two comments above. Aoba47 (talk) 23:08, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Request for a status update edit

  • @Ian Rose:, @Laser brain:, and @Sarastro1: This has received several votes of support, an image review, and a source review. If possibly, could I have a status update on this? I am assuming that you would this to wait for further comments (and I take no issue with that; I have already reached to a few editors about the possibility of looking at this), but I just wanted to check with you. Apologies for always pinging you for each of my nominations; I do not mean to be an annoyance. Have a great weekend? Aoba47 (talk) 23:24, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Sarastro1 edit

Oppose: I'm recusing as co-ordinator because a quick look at this showed several problems that I'm surprised haven't been picked up by now. And they aren't particularly minor ones either. I've not read the whole article but skimmed through the prose of the first sections, and looked at the sourcing in a little more detail. But these are samples only and are not an exhaustive list. Sarastro (talk) 12:52, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • "with the arrangement done by Mark A. Brymer.": Not a great phrasing. The “with noun verb” structure is best avoided like that; why not just “arranged by”?
  • "Jason Raize, who originated the role of Simba for the Broadway production…" Maybe this is a theatre thing, but what does “originated” mean here? Unless its a theatrical phrase, why not just "first performed"?
  • The word "originated" is a theatre word used to represent that actor not only first performed it but was heavily involved in the process of creating the character and show during the workshop phase. I have changed it though. Aoba47 (talk) 02:03, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Some commentators praised its contribution to Simba's character and incorporation of African music": How can a song make a contribution to a character? I recognise the intention here, but it needs to be rephrased. Maybe something like "how the song helped to develop Simba’s character…"
  • ""Endless Night" has been performed in different contexts outside the show": What does this mean? How can a song be performed in a context?
  • The background a release section doesn’t really say anything about it’s background. We learn who wrote it and composed the lyrics, all of which is sourced simply to musicnotes, some sheet music and a download site. Then we use the lyricist as a source for a little more in the background section. I’m not too keen on the sourcing here if I’m honest.
  • Revised the title. The source "Musicnotes.com" as been considered reliable enough for previous featured articles on songs, so I do not understand the concern here. Aoba47 (talk) 02:03, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Then we don’t really learn much more apart from bare factual details. When was it written? Why was "Lala" used? What was the function of the song within the narrative? Presumably it was chosen because Simba was grieving and "Lala" was about loss… but we don’t actually make this link. We have three composers listed but don't find out what their specific role or influence was. But we say an awful lot about the lyrics. Why neglect the music?
    • The sources only mention that Taymor had based the melody on "Lala" without further explanation. Both songs do address grief, but the sources do not go further into detail so adding that would be original research. I am not, "neglect[ing] the music" as you put it, but I am going by what the source gives me. Aoba47 (talk) 02:03, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • When was it composed/written? How much was the melody based on "Lala"? Did the writers of that song receive a credit? Reading between the lines, I’m guessing that the writers credited are actually those who wrote "Lala"… but why are we not making this explicit? Again, we need more about the composers.
  • All of those things are not listed in the sources. I could cite the liner notes from "Lala" to say this, but I would question if that would count as original research since they are not making the direct comparison themselves. It would be nice to know more about the composers, but it cannot be helped if that information is not cited in sources. Aoba47 (talk) 02:03, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Reflecting on the writing process, Taymor said compositions were selected from Rhythm of the Pride Lands for their mood not their lyrics.": This sentence is slightly meaningless; we could lose everything before "Taymor" but then we need to explain what she meant by this. What mood? From this quotation, were other songs from Rhythm of the Pride Lands used as well?
    • In the source, she just said that she choose the song based on the feeling/mood of it, and did not elaborate further. Again, I cannot just add things that are not in the sources. Also, I think that adding in more information about what other songs were adapted from Rhythm of the Pride Lands would be more appropriate for the article on the musical rather than this one. Aoba47 (talk) 02:03, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "NASA interns included the song on their playlist for the solar eclipse of August 21, 2017": Without a lot more context about why this song was chosen (which I don’t really think is too worthwhile), I really don’t see why this is here.
  • And the sentence structure of this section is very list-y and repetitive. Most sentences begin with “the” or a simple subject.
    • I do not really see any issue with that, as I feel that going out of my way to make every single sentence have a unique structure would make the section more awkward to read as these different structures would overshadow the actual content. Aoba47 (talk) 02:03, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The context and composition section seems to be mainly giving the lyrics but does not analyse anything about the song, its lyrics or how it fits into the overall story. Maybe here is the place to put reviewers concerns about how it fits (or doesn’t) into the overall feel.
    • Moved according to your suggestion. There is not any further analysis according to my research. Aoba47 (talk) 02:13, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The ISBN for the Stacy Wolf book is wrong, and is in fact for British musical theatre since 1950.
  • Several places say that the song “includes vocals by Rafiki and a choir that encourages Simba to move forward. Because of the use of chants, critics identified African music as an influence”, but I see that as a misreading of the sources. Does Rafiki sing in the song? I don’t see that on our article on the musical, or on any other website. Nor do I notice it if I listen to the song (I’m not a fan and have never heard it before), and I can certainly not hear any chants. This idea seems to be sourced to 3 reviews:
  • "supplies the moments of emotional clout in such ballads as "Shadowlands "and "Endless Night," and authentic African flavor in the chants for Rafiki and the chorus" (Houston chronicle)
  • "Musically, it pays homage to Africa in its grassland chants and ensemble numbers such as Shadowland and Endless Night" (Guardian)
  • "Most of the stand-out numbers, including "One by One", "Shadowland" and "Endless Night", were written specially for the stage, and express most fully the show’s African roots." (Whats on stage)
Now, my reading of these sources is that the “African” influences are found in this song, but also in the chants, which the reviewers are NOT saying are in this song, but are in separate parts of this musical. This is a fairly major concern to me, if the sources have been so mis-read.
  • Revised. It is not really relevant to this FAC if you are a fan of this or not. Aoba47 (talk) 02:13, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am also concerned that reviews from (mainly) local newspapers form the bulk of analysis that we do. Why is the Houston Chronicle” used at all? What makes this an expert source for this subject? Are there no theatrical reviews that could be used? Is there no academic analysis that could be used?
  • I do not see why local newspapers should be not allowed for an article like this; they are reliable sources and have discussed the song. There is not any academic analysis that I could find, and this are theatrical reviews, just published in local newspapers. Aoba47 (talk) 02:13, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I’m going to be blunt, it looks like this article has been padded out with details about the lyrics and any reviews that have been made available online, but does not really go into any depth about the song itself.
    • It would be great to go more in depth into certain parts of the song if there were sources that covered it; that is not the case. I also do not see any issue with adding sources and information about lyrics when the article is about a song. Aoba47 (talk) 02:13, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • A final point: the critics mention "African" influences. Really, we need to know more about these influences, ideally from the writers. And "African" is awfully broad. It is rather crude to think that all African music is the same. I'm assuming that as the original lyrics of "Lala" were Zulu, this is more where the influences may lie? And as one of the listed composers (as I've outlined, we need to know more about who composed what and when) is South African, maybe we should be going into this a little more and not just relying on the opinions of non-expert critics in newspapers to class the influences as "African". Sarastro (talk) 12:52, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have removed the African references entirely given your comments and my misreadings. I have also removed the Rafiki bit as that was also part of my misreading. Apologies for that. I see no reason though for discounting newspaper sources completely from the article. Aoba47 (talk) 02:13, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarastro1: I have responded to your comments above. A majority of your questions could not be answered as the sources do not address the answers to them. The article should not be faulted for not including information that does not exist. I also do not see any issue with citing newspapers are they are still reliable sources, and the authors were specifically chosen to cover theatre shows. I do not understand the reason to dismiss them entirely. Aoba47 (talk) 02:13, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Damien Linnane edit

  • "It premiered in the musical The Lion King" - should you add the year this occurred in the lead?
  • I agree with Sarastro that "African music" is too vague, unless that's all the detail the sources gave.
  • Just going off what the sources say. They just note a generic African influence, and since it was mentioned by three separate sources, then I see no reason to not mention it here. Aoba47 (talk) 02:16, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should the caption for your image of Julie Taymor include the year the photo was taken? I.e (pictured in 20xx)
  • "But the disparity between the two halves" - I'd drop the word 'But', and perhaps the colon that precedes it.
  • "Nick Afoa performed "Endless Night" in 2013 during his audition for Simba for an Australian production of The Lion King" - did he end up getting the pat anyway?

That's all I found. Damien Linnane (talk) 13:24, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for the support. Hope you have a great rest of your weekend. Aoba47 (talk) 05:36, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Withdrawal request edit

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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