Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Allied logistics in the Southern France campaign/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 20 October 2021 [1].
Allied logistics in the Southern France campaign edit
Many years ago I gathered a mass of material in both English and French on the World War II campaign in southern France, but never got to work on it owing to my loss of admin status. However, I have used it here to create another article in a series on Allied logistics in the campaigns in north west Europe during World War II. The campaign in southern France has not attracted as much attention as those in the north, and its volume in the Green Books series was not published until 1993, over twenty years after than the last of those about the campaigns in northern France (by a historian who had already completed a volume in the Vietnam series). The article was fairly well received when it appeared on the front page at DYK back in March, and has since passed GA and A class reviews. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:56, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
Comments by Wehwalt edit
- "civil affairs food supplies had to be given additional priority" I'm not quite clear what civil affairs food supplies are.
- Changed to "food supplies for the civilian population". Linked civil affairs. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- "The October fighting demonstrated that the German propensity for hard fighting had not been underestimated," can the double use of "fighting"be avoided?
- "The prospect of an Allied invasion of southern France was considered at the Trident Conference in May 1943" what does "the prospect of" add? I'd cut it unless there's some nuance I'm missing.
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- " Tehran Conference"/" Tehran conference" Which?
- More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:16, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- " that had stockpiled for Anvil" I would add a "been" before stockpiled.
- " In addition to the Allied troops, Italian prisoners of war (POWs) of which around 20,000 would arrive in southern France by the end of September.[25]" Verb missing?
- The French ships participating created a resupply problem; only 191 rounds of high-capacity ammunition available for its 13.4-inch (340 mm) guns of the French battleship Lorraine.[50]" A "was" seems needed somewhere after the colon.
- "and some vehicles drowned " do vehicles drown? Possibly "sank"?
- Yes, they do. If you drive a vehicle into water, it may foul the engine and electrical systems, which will cause the vehicle to stop. Here in Australia a lot of roads go straight across creek beds, since they don't usually have any water in them. Instead they have a big ruler next to it to tell you how deep the water is. See 15 ways to avoid drowning your 4WD Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:56, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
- "and a drydock No. 1 was cleared instead." I'm not sure why you need an "a" here.
- Civil affairs is linked twice in close succession.
- "The latter was given priority although it was much steeper, limiting capacity to 125 long tons (127 t) per train, and subject to flooding and to deep snows in the winter, because it was less badly damaged." I might move "because it was less badly damaged"to the start of the sentence.
- "bids were taken for movement of freight by rail." It's unclear what this means. Bids from private French contractors?
- The term POL seems to be used several times before you define it.
- "Two trains arrived each day that were unloaded roller conveyors that allowed twelve cars to be unloaded simultaneously. " This seems a bit muddled.
- That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:59, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
Hi Wehwalt, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 00:49, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
Image review edit
- I will take it on faith that images that are stated to have been taken by a service member in fact were, given the unlikelihood that there were private photographers present.
- This states it was created by the Imperial War Museum. This was surely not the case?
- This has a creation date listed of 2015.
- On this, perhaps it could be stressed which D-Day is being referred to.
- For the maps taken from The Corps of Engineers: The War Against Germany, one gives a date of 1993, the other 1 January 1993.
- On this, is 1 January 1944 an accurate date?
- That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:44, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
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Comments from Harry edit
- Plans for Anvil called for landing 151,151 personnel and 19,271 vehicles on the first day. In the first 45 days, 478,931 personnel and 74,386 vehicles would be landed I'm curious about the precision here. Did someone arrive at the conclusion that 74,387 would be too many but 74,385 would be too few? And do we need that level of precision in an encyclopaedia article? Personally, I think the reader might find it a little dense but I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
- Here's how it is done: Each type of unit has a Table of Organisation and Equipment (TOE). These are numbered (eg. 7-15 - infantry battalion). The TOE specifies how many personnel, what equipment and how many vehicles it has. It also lists the weight and shipping space it requires. Then you take the troop list and the manual of TOEs and add them up. You wind up with very specific figures. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- As to why I prefer to do things this way: years of trying to paraphrase others, particularly the Australian Dictionary of Biography, have led me to prefer the most detailed figures and dates, which provides maximum flexibility to anyone trying to paraphrase the Wikipedia. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Here's how it is done: Each type of unit has a Table of Organisation and Equipment (TOE). These are numbered (eg. 7-15 - infantry battalion). The TOE specifies how many personnel, what equipment and how many vehicles it has. It also lists the weight and shipping space it requires. Then you take the troop list and the manual of TOEs and add them up. You wind up with very specific figures. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Each day five units of fire would arrive What's a unit of fire?
- The explanation immediately follows: "This was a somewhat arbitrary measurement for accounting purposes, and was different for each type of ammunition. It was 60 rounds for the M1 carbine, 150 for the M1 Garand rifle, 750 for the M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) and 900 for the M1919 Browning machine gun." Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- by the end of June some forty logistical units believe that should be 40 (in numerals) per MOS:NUMERAL
- WP:NUMERAL: "Integers greater than nine expressible in one or two words may be expressed either in numerals or in words" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Reserves of ammunition for American ships was → reserves were or ammunition was
- with its cargo set to Camel Red → sent?
- had caused ammunition to be loaded on top not sure "cause" is the verb I'd use for what was a human decision with a seemingly sound rationale
- According to the plan newly-arrived service units needs a comma after "plan"
- flew out from the UK to Italy via Gibraltar and Marrakesh was the circuitous route to avoid overflying enemy territory or because of the capabilities of the aircraft? Or some other reason?
- So that each glider would a pilot and a copilot missing word?
- newly-arrived units no need for a hyphen with -ly adverbs
- Removed per MOS:HYPHEN: Avoid using a hyphen after a standard -ly adverb Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Captain Carl W. Bills, an Oklahoma oil man who, despite his lowly military rank, became the technical supervisor of the pipeline system is £depsite his lowly rank" from the source? It sounds like editorialising in Wikipedia's voice.
- The expectation that there would be heavy fighting had caused ammunition to be loaded on ships on top of rations You mention this further up, almost word for word.
- The 3rd Infantry Division, limited expenditure not sure that comma is supposed to be there? Also, you've given the full name in the previous sentence; "the division" would probably suffice.
- what was actually shipped did not always coincided with what "actually" is almost always redundant, and is "coincided" a typo?
- Ammunition expenditures in November were high, with Seventh Army's 648 105 mm howitzers firing as tempting as it is, using ", with" like that should be avoided in professional-quality prose
- 2,684 M1911}} .45-caliber pistols looks like you held the shift key down too long!
- The Allied planners could be faulted by whom? Without attribution, that sounds like an editorial statement in Wikipedia's voice.
Overall excellent, as always, just a few minor quibbles but I'm sure nothing that you won't be able to address easily. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:32, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the time to provide a review. This is much appreciated. I think I have addressed all the issues. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for the explanation on TOEs; you learn something new every day! All my concerns (which were minor to begin with) have been addressed so I'm happy to support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:24, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Comments Support by Zawed
edit
Lead
- In the lead, suggest making it explicit that it was the Seventh Army that landed on 15 August and also rewording so that the two dates don't end/start together.
- Also suggest swapping the order of the final two sentences of the lead so that the are chronological.
Planning
- Wilson's AFHQ: suggest writing out AFHQ. I know what the HQ is but not sure about AF...Advanced Field?
- Giens and Cap Benat... link these?
- These were remedied in March 1944 with the arrival of Lieutenant General Alexander Patch. "These" being multiple vacancies so presumably it was some of his staff that also helped remedy these, not just him in isolation.
Base 901
- ...and to that end a list of the required logistical units was drawn up, but although a list of the required units was drawn up,... something wrong here
- Fourth paragraph, there is repeated usage of "only when" in successive sentences in the middle portion.
- Base 901 was assigned to Coastal Base Section unless I missed, this is where the abbreviation CBS should be introduced.
- Suggest working in at some point in the last paragraph the renaming of Anvil to Dragoon, to prepare the reader for the transition to Dragoon in the following section.
More to come. Zawed (talk) 08:48, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Assault: seaborne
- This allowed the Seventh Army and Beach Control Group to... previous mention of the Beach Control Group is in lower case; the singular form is also confusing as there are multiple beach control groups.
- The Beach Control Group assumed overall responsibility for the operation the beaches... something missing here, maybe of after operation?
- Although the ships were combat loaded... the use of "Although" doesn't seem right as I would expect ammunition to be loaded up top to be disembarked first? Perhaps "Because"?
- The Coastal Base Section assumed responsibility use abbreviation and elsewhere in the following sections?
Ports: Port-de-Bouc
- 9 wounded on Tackle. Tackle was towed to Toulon... to avoid the back to back usage of Tackle, suggest: "9 wounded on Tackle. Towed to Toulon, Tackle's crew and salvage...}}
Supply and services: POL
- to just north of Avignon. From the 701st Engineer... I think possibly a missing word after "From"; perhaps "here"?
That's my review done. I also made a few edits to the article as I went through to correct what I felt were obvious typos/grammar issues rather than raise them here. Zawed (talk) 09:52, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
- I think I have addressed all your points. Thanks for the review! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:19, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Source review - pass edit
Will do soon. Hog Farm Talk 13:32, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
As noted at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Allied logistics in the Southern France campaign, Young is published by a weaker publisher but looks fine per WP:SPS Sources looks reliable enough for what they are citing Formatting is acceptable. Source review is passed; spot checks not done. Hog Farm Talk 16:05, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
Comments Support by Pendright
edit
Lead:
- On 12 September, the US Seventh Army made contact with Allied forces which had landed in Normandy earlier that year as part of Operation Overlord.
- The unexpectedly rapid Allied advance was the principal cause of logistical problems, although a theater-wide shortage of service units and an unanticipated dearth of French civilian labor also contributed.
- "death" of French civilian labor -> Giving death its ordinary meaning, its use here seems out of place
- "Dearth" is correct; see wikt:dearth. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
- "death" of French civilian labor -> Giving death its ordinary meaning, its use here seems out of place
Background:
- Additional assault shipping Eisenhower required for Overlord was sent from the Mediterranean.[6]
- In April, the British chiefs suddenly announced that they were in favor of Anvil after all, to which the Commander-in-Chief, United States Fleet, Admiral Ernest King replied that his offer to withdraw ships from the Pacific was still good.[9]
Planning:
- All were far from perfect, being separated by cliffs and rock outcrops, backed by dominating high ground, and possessing only restricted entries and exits.[16]
- The departure of Lieutenant General George S. Patton for the United Kingdom along with key members of the staff left numerous vacancies at Seventh Army headquarters.
- By 1 August, 162 personnel were assigned to the Coastal Base Section headquarters, and 532 to the 21st Port, although some were still serving with their former units.[24]
- Of these, 43,406 would come from North Africa, 24,015 from Italy[,] and 4,989 from Corsica; 55,772 would be American and 16,638 French.
- They were organized into Italian Service Units of 250 men and commanded by Italian officers and non-commissioned officers.
- The logistics plan provided for five days' supply of Class I (subsistence) and III (petrol, oil and lubricants) every three days, thus building up reserves by two days every three. For Class V (ammunition), the troops would land with five units of fire.[29]
Base 901
- Requests for equipment from US sources was frequently denied because the items were unobtainable, or because the War Department deemed them non-essential, or simply because the French failed to submit the required paperwork in a timely manner.[38]
- non-essential -> nonessential
Mounting
- Reserves of ammunition for American ships were carried by the ammunition ships USS Nitro, which came from the United Kingdom, and Mount Baker, which sailed from the United States.
Seaborne:
- A sand bar at Alpha Yellow caused LSTs to beach prematurely, and some vehicles drowned before a ponton causeway was erected.
- some, many, or a few LSTs were beached?
- Motor cranes, A-frames mounted on DUKWs and 6x6 trucks with Quickway cranes were then used to lift the cargo onto trucks, which took it to a dump where it was unloaded using a crane.
- There was a general shortage of cargo nets owing to too many ships being unloaded at once, too few trucks to move the cargo to the dumps, and insufficient personnel to unload the cargo at the dump sites.[58]
- Dump sites were selected before the landing from aerial photographs based on their accessibility to road and rail transport, and the area available for storage facilities, but when reconnaissance teams surveyed the dump area after the landing, large numbers of land mines were discovered, which had to be removed before the area could be used for storage.
- This could be a good introductory to dump sites?
- landing and area references should be plural?
- Could drop the comma after transport?
- Since the dump sites are not definite, I wonder about the use of the?
- Some of the dump areas were found to become swampy after rain, and had to be moved to higher and drier ground, which often lacked the access to transport.[58]
- Also introductory?
- Between 15 August and 8 September 265,939 long tons (270,206 t) of supplies and 46,505 vehicles were landed over the beaches.
- About 33,000 POWs and 6,200 casualties were evacuated.[58]
- By 14 September the beach dumps held 11,740 long tons (11,930 t) of subsistence, 8,821 long tons (8,963 t) of petrol, oil and lubricants (POL), and 58,488 long tons (59,427 t) of ammunition. Another 10,252 long tons (10,417 t) of POL were held at Marseille and Port de Bouc.[26]
Airborne:
- Within 48 hours all the airborne objectives had been taken and the airborne forces had linked up with the seaborne ones.[63]
Pause here - back soon! Pendright (talk) 22:58, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
Base organization:
- An advance echelon of SOS NATOUSA was organized in Italy and arrived at Dijon on 12 September to control both the Delta Base Section and CONAD.[75]
Marseille:
- He opposed the Navy's plan to rehabilitate both and Toulon, and recommended that efforts be concentrated on the former.
- Harbor clearance was undertaken by two groups from the US Navy, each consisting of about 10 officers and 100 other ranks, and two smaller groups from the British Royal Navy.
- Another 18 arrived in October.
- The project was set back when one of the four large tugs used to tow the barges between Naples and Marseille capsized and sank.[85]
Port-de-Bouc:
- The capacity of the port was small compared to Marseille, with a pre-war capacity of 7,000 long tons (7,100 t) of cargo, but German demolitions were not as extensive.
Toulon:
- A large swing bridge that had been collapsed had to be cut up to remove it from the channel and provide access to the berths in the inner basins.[96]
- Tonnage unloaded through the ports southern France increased from 174,500 long tons (177,300 t) in August to 326,813 long tons (332,057 t) in September, 524,894 long tons (533,317 t) in October, and 547,602 long tons (556,389 t) in November.[97]
Railways:
- "railway" is British English and "railroad" is American English, although they mean the same thing.
Inland waterways:
- Plans were made to remove the obstructions by 8 November,[107] but plans to use the Rhône were abandoned owing to a shortage of suitable tugs for use on its swift-flowing and relatively shallow waters.[113]
- waters -> There is no plural form for water in Americn English
- Not according to the sources or the wiktionary. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:49, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- waters -> There is no plural form for water in Americn English
Subsistence:
- The 178th Bakery Company established itself in Épinal on 2 October, and the 108th joined it there between 19 and 23 October, while the 7553rd (Italian) Bakery Company moved in to Vesoul.
Medical services:
- The 52nd 56th and 58th Medical Battalions landed on 15 August to supplement the organic medical units of the divisions.[132]
Finished - Pendright (talk) 03:26, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:29, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.