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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/A History of the Birds of Europe/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 25 December 2019 [1].

A History of the Birds of Europe edit

Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:51, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've not been at FAC for some months, but I'm back with a new project. Henry Eeles Dresser was famous in his time, although he's almost forgotten now. This article is about his magnum opus. An FAC on a book is a new departure for me so please be gentle... and you'll find out why he wasn't afraid of being scalped by the Comanche too! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:51, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Aa77zz edit

I enjoyed reading this article, it is well prepared and very clearly written.

  • "The Birds of Europe was published as 84 quarto parts between 1871 and 1896." suggest "...1871 and 1882." According to McGhie p.147 the book (without the supplement) consisted of 84 parts and was published between 1871 and 1882. (the title pages of each volume have 1871-1881)
  • "84 quarto parts between 1871 and 1896.[33][34]" - the two cites are to different pages in the same book. Better to combine in one cite (ie pp. 137, 146–147)
  • Both refs are also used elsewhere, so confusing to combine them here Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:08, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When all the parts were published, they were bound into volumes using Morocco leather with gold tooling." faithful to the source - but surely the subscribers had the parts bound privately and thus the binding could vary (although presumably leather with gold lettering was common).
  • As you know, McGhie says no more than that, but perhaps the covers and endpapers were sent to the subscribers for their bookbinders to use? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:08, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • You could mention that the main book consisted of 8 volumes - with the supplement as volume 9. (McGhie p. 147 - or look at a scan)
  • ("including their failure to use trinomial nomenclature" - I doubt whether other ornithologists were using trinomials in 1871 when Dresser started.)
  • well, there was certainly an active debate by 1878 (McGhie 144, 175), and I don't think Seebohm of all people would have been overly concerned on the exact timing — and Dresser was clearly a conservative on the issue, with little compromise even in subsequent books Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:33, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • First quote from Seebohm - I also like the end of the second sentence which you do not quote "though in most cases his bird-stuffer, even if he be only a country barber, will be quite capable of correcting such childish blunders."
  • Second quote from Seebohm - I find very difficult to follow even when I read the original text. Seebohm was clearly a very nasty man.

Legacy

  • "When he was appointed in 1872 the museum had 35,000 bird specimens ..." to the end of the paragraph seems off topic. The bequests of Hume etc to the BM probably don't belong in this article.

- Aa77zz (talk) 16:25, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • The first sentence of the lead uses the past tense where I would use the present: "A History of the Birds of Europe, ... is a nine-volume ornithological book...". "is a book" - but "it ... was published."

- Aa77zz (talk) 17:58, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Aa77zz thanks for your careful review and textual tweaks. That was relatively painless given that you clearly have access to McGhie's book! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:33, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some more comments:

  • "Seebohm was a much more committed supporter of Darwinism..." This is uncertain. Seebohm believed in the development of new species but not by "natural selection". I have a copy of Stresemann's Ornithology - the history of ornithology from a German perspective. Stresemann doesn't mention Dresser but cites Seebohm (on p. 327) as someone who believed that species changed without selection. He cites a passage written by Seebohm in 1887 here where Seebohm writes: "I agree with him that Natural Selection from Fortuitous Variations will only account to a very limited extent for the evolution of an existing species, and not at all for the differentiation of a new one." and "It is impossible to avoid coming to the conclusion that Variation is not accidental, that there is no such thing as Fortuitous Variation, and that Spontaneous Variation, like Spontaneous Generation, is a myth." According to McGhie p.147 Dresser accepted that "birds evolve into localised forms in response to local climates and in isolation." (but as far as I can see Dresser doesn't mention natural selection)
  • Perhaps mention that 20 copies on thinner paper and without the plates were given to contributors. (McGhie p. 138)
  • Perhaps mention that Dresser strictly applied the law of priority using sometimes obscure or foreign language journals which meant that he changed the established Latin names of some species. "causing great consternation among his colleagues." (McGhie p. 143) (In contrast Seebohm believed in et auctorum plurimorum - (cf wiki consensus of RSs) - he inserts these Latin words in bold characters by his preferred binomial name even if not the earliest - ie he valued stability)
  • Is it possible to say something about the taxonomy used by Dresser and the organization into orders, families etc? McGhie just discusses species. Dresser discusses the taxonomy in his introduction.
  • Perhaps mention Dresser's 1881 "A List of European Birds, including all species found in the western palaearctic region" available here. McGhie on p.147 suggests that this book may have been published in response to Sclater's criticism that the History was too large.
  • Perhaps include a cite to McGhie's 2011 analysis of the publication history, pagination etc which can be downloaded (the reference is complicated so I'm including it here):
    • McGhie, Henry A. (2011). "Dresser, H.E. (1871-"1881" = 1871-1882). [Initially Sharpe, R.B. & H.E. Dresser.] A History of the Birds of Europe, including all the species inhabiting the Western Palæarctic Region". In Dickinson, E.C.; Overstreet, L.K.; Dowsett, R.J.; Bruce, M.D. (eds.). Priority! The Dating of Scientific Names in Ornithology: a Directory to the literature and its reviewers. Northampton, UK: Aves Press. pp. 88–89. ISBN 978-0-9568611-1-5.

(Both McGhie 2011 and McGhie 2017 App.2 list the 5 "new" species introduced by Dresser in his History. Of these 4 appear to be now considered as junior synonyms and Octocorys brandti is now Eremophila alpestris brandti - one of the 42 (sic) subspecies of the horned lark - not very notable.)

- Aa77zz (talk) 13:49, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Aa77zz, thanks for comments and links, all done I hope. I've also reffed Ohl on the problems with priority Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:05, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I'm happy with the changes. Great work. - Aa77zz (talk) 08:32, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review edit

  • No spotchecks carried out
  • Links to sources working per checker tool
  • Formats:
  • Ref 39 needs space after "p."
  • Ref 58: lacking year for British Birds Vol 3 issue 9. See e.g. ref 54
  • Seebohm – what are his credentials as a self-published source? Also, add oclc?
  • The title "Selected bibliography" might suggest that these are sources – "Further reading" maybe clearer.
  • Quality/reliabilty: other than mentioned above, no issues. Sources are of appropiate quality and reliability and meet FA criteria. Brianboulton (talk) 21:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Brianboulton, thanks for that. I've fixed the two refs. Like Dresser, Seebohm was a wealthy industrialist and, like Dresser, could afford to self-publish. He also wrote several books on birds, and was an influential figure in scientific circles. I've added that he was an ornithologist to the text since that was missing. I don't normally give oclc and his text is linked. What to call the list of books is tricky. Further reading sections tend to be deprecated, and since this section links to major publications relevant to the text, I'd rather leave as is Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:25, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What about "Selected additional biblography"? (Just a suggestion, not a request) Brianboulton (talk) 12:51, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'll probably leave as is unless other reviewers raise the issue, which is quite likely! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:00, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from JM edit

Very interesting.

  • "a recent commentator" is an odd attribution. Could you not just name the person? "the historian of science John Smith" or whatever?
  • "Dresser’s old friend Alfred Russel Wallace was predictably unstinting with his praise" This comes across as non-neutral editorialising. I do like it, though - do you have a source you can cite?
  • No, I've toned it down but added a sentence at the end for Wallace recommending the book Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:28, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Even the anonymous obituarist, though, could not refrain from adding" Again.

Need to stop there; please double-check my edits so far! Josh Milburn (talk) 22:02, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Josh Milburn, thanks for comments so far Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:28, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we need all the details of first editions for sale? I worry it'll go out of date. I'd be more interested to hear about digital versions scanned by museums or universities (if there are any).
  • I think it's normal to give prices of valuable books, coins etc, see The Birds of America#Recent sales for instance. I take your point about updating, but I update my FAs regularly, so I'm doing what I can, while I can. The books are long out of copyright, and I've linked to full texts scanned by the University of California in the Bibliography. There may well be other digital version, but there's little to be gained from listing multiple copies of the same free text Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:37, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Again, please double-check my edits! Josh Milburn (talk) 11:31, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Josh Milburn, thanks again for comments Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:37, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Josh Milburn, I forgot to thank you four the tweaks to the text, all look fine to me Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:13, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support; I've not looked closely at the sources or images, but I'm happy to support provided nothing else comes up. Josh Milburn (talk) 09:57, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Josh Milburn many thanks, somewhat belated since I had to go away at the weekend Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:26, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Henry_Eeles_Dresser_cph.3b20904.j, pg: when/where was this first published? What is the author's date of death?
  • Published in the US in 1900 according to Library of Congress listing, Published by Maull & Fox, London, presumably in the same year. Author unknown since it's published under the company name. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:52, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Alfred-Russel-Wallace-c1895.jpg: if this is to be hosted on Commons it will also need a tag for status in country of origin
  • File:RBSharpe.jpg needs a US PD tag and author date of death. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:09, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FunkMonk edit

  • I'll have a look soon, some preliminary comments first. FunkMonk (talk) 19:32, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The image captions are inconsistent in whether they give full names or only last names.
  • If only Keulemans was the artist, why name him only in the second caption of one of his artworks (the ibis instead of the oriole)?
  • Keulemanns was the main but not sole artist, so attribution needed on both, done Jimfbleak - talk to me?
Should the infobox mention additional artists then? FunkMonk (talk) 10:19, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Last unanswered point. FunkMonk (talk) 15:39, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
FunkMonk, sorry, missed that. Although it's often referred to just as Dresser's History, Sharpe contributed to 13 out of 84 parts. Keulemanns produced 590 of 633 plates (93%), so by far the most important contributor, and personally I wouldn't add the minor artists to the infobox. If you disagree, though.I will do so Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:29, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the pictures of people could state their relevance in the captions for context.
  • "Dresser is wearing a wig" Do we really need this information in an article about a bird book? Seems more appropriate for his biography.
  • well, I think it helps to account for his odd appearance, and does no harm Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:02, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe move the Willughby image to the start of the section, so it doesn't clash with the image below?
  • "such the bird's beak, feet" Such as?
  • "such a Réamur, Brisson, Georges Cuvier and Carl Linnaeus" Such as? Also, why not full names for the first two?
  • "He wished to build on Gould's work to include all" By including all?
  • "so he proposed to Henry Eeles Dresser" Could we get some kind of introduction to Dresser here, what his occupation/affiliation etc. was at this time?
  • "He also had the language skills to translate texts from several European languages" Do we need the first "language"? Or change to linguistic skills, to avoid repetition?
  • The "Preparation" section seems more like a biography of Dresser focused on his relationship with birds up to a certain point, not preparation for the book itself. Could the scope be specified somehow in the title name?
  • Changed to "Dresser and bird collecting" which is more to the point Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:15, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and Keulemans was drawing a plate every six days" This is the first time you mention him, so should be linked and introduced.
  • "the different families only coming together in the final binding." Not sure what this means or how it would work.
  • expanded as when the articles and plates were reorganised in the final binding I guess that the parts consisted of loose leaves, so that the could easily be bound, although the source isn't explicit on that Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:35, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the crude division into bird groups used by earlier writers" Bird groups could mean many things, specify?
  • Well, in this case they really did mean many things. Aldrovani, for example had inter alia, fabled birds and worm-eating birds, and Belon included birds of bushes and birds of fields. Giving lists of examples like these to illustrate seems excessive. I've changed crude to arbitrary though Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:35, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shouldn't Sharpe also be mentioned in the infobox?
  • "such a drawing of a skull" Such as?
  • "of two juvenile ornithologists" Where they particularly young when they wrote it? Perhaps worth noting?
  • At the date of completion, Dresser was aged 44 and Sharpe 33, Seebohm was 50. Added as a footnote Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:35, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in Ibis. an avian science journal," Should that be a comma after Ibis?
  • When was the supplement published?
  • "were less influential than William Yarrell's A History of British Birds" Could be good to give year for context.
  • "It was mainly written by" Was? Most of the rest uses past tense.
  • "to help readers to identify birds" Is the last to needed?
  • "and the Spanish- and Portuguese-governed" why this extreme detail in the intro summary, which is not even mentioned in the article body?
  • "although a recent commentator" Why not just give date? It won't take more space, and in some years time, 2018 will not be recent.
  • Support - nice article on an interesting and obscure topic. Last point, I wonder whether this was Dresser's first publication (on birds)? FunkMonk (talk) 14:40, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • FunkMonk, many thanks for that. It was his first book about birds, but he was a regular contributor of bird articles to zoological journeys throughout his life. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:53, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, perhaps worth specifying? FunkMonk (talk) 15:12, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've expanded the first sentence of "Other publications", the existing ref covers the additional material Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:39, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt edit

Interesting article.

  • Was there a publisher? Who printed the work? Ditto, at least on publisher, for the Supplement.
  • Self published, as normal for men of means then. I've added the printer too Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:50, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • How ere subscriptions solicited? Were there advertisements or was this word of mouth?
  • "Matamoros, Tamaulipas" I would simply say "Matamoros". The city is probably better known than the state.
  • I don't think either is well known outside N Am, certainly not here in the UK Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:50, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dresser had also extended the area covered to include Persia and western Central Asia," Did this border the existing area? You haven't mention if it covered portions of the Middle East.
  • Dresser had also extended the area covered beyond Europe and the Middle East to include neighbouring Persia and western Central Asia... Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:50, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It might be useful to know the years of Wallace's reviews.
  • I might merge the final sentence of the last paragraph of "Reception" into that paragraph's first sentence, thus: "Overall, Birds of Europe was very well received by its contemporary reviewers, as was the Supplement when it was published." (citations omitted) That way, you don't have the sentence hanging off the back end of that quote.
  • Consecutive sentences in Legacy begin with "Although" (although they are in different paragraphs)
  • Although Sharpe's contribution to the Birds of Europe was limited, his involvement had facilitated his move to the British Museum" I'm not sure the "had" is really needed.
  • "Other publications" maybe "Related works" ?
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:51, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – A handful of minor issues from me, but nothing major.

  • The prose nit-pickers normally don't like it when editors start sentences with numerals, like 339 in the lead. In such cases, spelling the numbers out is probably the best way to handle things, even if you wouldn't normally spell it out.
  • I think it's ugly spelling out a number like that. It's not been mentioned by previous reviewers and if it's not a deal-breaker I'll leave as is Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:02, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Background: This bit is a touch redundant: "but its influence was profound, influencing...". A different word for one of them would be helpful.
  • Dresser and bird collecting: To avoid having a slim one-sentence paragraph here, you could try moving the last paragraph to the end of the prior one, where it looks like a good fit.
  • Legacy: Linking World War II isn't really needed in this context, as it does little but distract from the other, higher-value links here.
  • It feels like a word is missing before "his book still attracts the interest of collectors". Was "but" or similar meant to be here.
  • Note h could probably use a cite, if the content isn't covered elsewhere in the article or by the nearby quote's reference.

Giants2008 (Talk) 22:37, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support – I don't consider the first comment a deal-breaker, the other items were resolved and everything looks to be in fine shape, so I'm happy to support this one. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Tim riley edit

A preliminary digression from my own comments to those of Giants2008, above. As a rule I'm one of the prose nit-pickers to whom Giants refers, but if someone can explain to me why anybody thinks it a sin to start a sentence with numerals, I shall be mightily obliged. As for my own comments, as I read through the text I began to think I was going to fail to find anything to quibble at, but I finally found two things in the second paragraph of the Reception section. The first is purely stylistic (and a matter of personal taste): the false title in "Dresser's former friend, ornithologist Henry Seebohm" – seems a touch tabloidese to me. Secondly, "Seebohm was a much more committed supporter of evolution": I don't think one can support evolution any more than one supports gravity, but rather one supports the theory of evolution. My only other point is that the mention of Ray in the Legacy section comes 21 paragraphs after his previous mention and I for one had to scroll back up to remind myself when "Ray's time" was. If you don't think it unduly repetitive it may be helpful to mention the century again here, but I don't press the point. These tiny quibbles don't detract from my support for the elevation of this article to FA: it seems to me to meet all the criteria (and was a pleasure to review). Finally, and with great sadness, I again pay tribute to the source reviewer, above: this was among the last reviews BB contributed to before his death this week. Requiescat. – Tim riley talk 13:23, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Tim riley, many thanks. I've tweaked to address the issues you mentioned. I agree about Brian, I've posted my tribute elsewhere, but I had realised that the review must have been one of his last acts here Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:46, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note edit

Hi Jim, I won't hold up promotion over it but I'd have thought that title case required "including" and "inhabiting" to be capitalised in the (sub)title -- perhaps you know something I don't... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:16, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Rose, thanks. That's how my main source has it too, so I'll change it Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:22, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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