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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2009 Giro d'Italia/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 14:44, 15 November 2009 [1].

2009 Giro d'Italia edit

Nominator(s): Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 07:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this article for featured status because I believe it comes as close to satisfying the criteria as (essentially) one editor can get it. I've been editing this article like crazy since May, and I believe that if it does not, as I type this, satisfy the FA criteria, it will once I have addressed concerns of persons more experienced in vetting FA's than I am. I am nominating this article because it seems to be the only step left. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 07:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by AnOddName
  • No dab links or dead external links, which is good.
  • The larger images, and some of the smaller ones, have decent alt text. The smaller "stage" icons in the "Route and stages" table already have text next to them, so you can use "|link=" in the image tag to exempt them from alt text.
Done.--EdgeNavidad (talk) 17:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Citation dates are consistent ISO style.
  • User Kov 93 appears to be the primary article contributor (you're a close second). If Kov 93 doesn't know about the nomination, remember to notify them soon.

--an odd name 15:13, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kov 93 hasn't edited the article since July, but still should have been notifed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kov 93 is not the primary contributor to the article. He edited the article in a handful of bursts of 30 or 40 consecutive edits within a couple of hours (I have also made numerous consecutive edits, but they've been over days at a time), most of which were wholly rolled back and needn't have at all been made in that way. Further, he does not have a very good command over the English language, so I doubt how helpful he could be here. I'm trying not to sound like a complete jerk here, but he really did not contribute much. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 23:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
S'pose that's not entirely fair...most of Kov's editing was updating the standings as the race went on. Not really in improving the quality of the article. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 23:11, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by SandyGeorgia

There is some WP:MOS cleanup needed. The section headings include incorrect uppercase (see WP:MSH); there is unnecessary bolding in the "World Rankings points" section (see WP:MOSBOLD); there is unnecessary use of WP:ITALICS in several places (example, ... and so shared leadership of the Fair play classification and throughout at least the "Other classifications" section); there are WP:MOSNUM cleanup needs (example, ... and 2 for twentieth going to Lars Bak); and punctuation of image captions needs review per WP:MOS#Captions (sentence fragments vs. full sentences). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:39, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am so used to "General Classification" that I was thinking of arguments to keep it like that, but it looks like there is no real argument. Therefore, I changed most of the section headings, but I kept a few: "Trofeo Fast Team" and "Trofeo Super Team", because I don't know for sure if these are names or not, and "World Rankings points", because this refers to the UCI World Ranking, which is capitalized.
  • The bold text in the World Rankings points tables has been removed. I also improved the table in other ways that I think MOS requires.--EdgeNavidad (talk) 17:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The italic text: I removed most, and kept some as foreign terms according to the MOS. I removed the references to the jersey in the classification leadership table, because I don't think they serve a goal. The jersey icons are already there, and the Italian name for that jersey is not really important. I don't know what to do with the "no award" in that table; the italic makes clear that it is not the name of a cyclist, is that allowed by the MoS, with function emphasis?? Not clear to me. I left the "Traguardo Volante" italic. The classification is named that way, so the name should be kept, but I don't know what the correct English translation is. (Traguardo might be a sponsor?) Same goes for "Trofeo Fuga Cervelo": it is the name of the classification, but should an english translation be given here? --EdgeNavidad (talk) 17:44, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Observations by Kevin McE

Several small, mainly semantic, issues:

  • We have already discussed on the talk page the mathematically unsound nature of trying to give a total race distance to the nearest 100m. If a footnote is needed to explain why the total for the race is not the total of the stages, let's have a footnote.
  • By the definition of queen stage, two stages cannot claim the status. If there is not unanimous sourced allocation of the epiphet, drop it. Totalling two non-consecutive stage times seems a very odd piece of data.
    • I disagree. It is verifiable that both stages were called the queen stage (Blockhaus was also referred to as "one of three stages vying for the status as queen stage," but I only found that in one article). The times I thought was interesting in that most stages in a stage race are completed in 3-4 hours, but I'm not too attached to it.
  • Di Luca did not "come in" second, 41 seconds behind the winner: he "came in" over the last finishing line a couple of minutes before Menchov. Suggest "Second place overall went to Di Luca, who also won ..."
  • I don't think we should have rolled over so easily to one person who wanted CERA spelled out in full. Like Alex, I think the normal English usage rule should apply, and that this aids readability.
  • Can I suggest categories, classifications, or even types of stage, rather than 'brandings, and eliminated rather than taken out to explain the consequence of finishing after the cut-off?
  • To say that stages are meant to end in a bunch sprint suggests intention on the part of the organisers. While this might be true, it would be unverifiable, and I would suggest predicted to instead. Premier doesn't seem an appropriate adjective for the top sprinters.
  • Did you mean to say that Milan is a traditional city? The city in which the city traditionally finishes, or in which the race has finished each year since 1989. Either way, that stage being showy and prestigious seems unencyclopaedic as a description.
  • What did Columbia do to upset the winners of the team time trial, and who were they anyway? Yes, I know what the article is meant to mean, but in UK English at least, this is the question raised by wound up. Keep the formal tone: were/finished as/became/ended the day as/etc etc.
    • Changed, but I have to ask, are WP:CYC articles meant to be written in British English? I'm actually not terribly opposed to that, but it would mean a lot of coming after me to clean up my "kilometer"s and "November 2"s and surely countless other phrases of which I'm not even aware. As I think I can safely say I'm the most prodigious prose writer in our Project, what I write will often "grate on" your sensibilities just as what you would write might grate on mine. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 03:47, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, nobody has said that cycling articles should be in UK English, but wp:Engvar suggests version neutral language wherever possible. Of course users of one dialect will not always be aware of the effect of their words on the users of another: that is why we seek to work together. Kevin McE (talk) 07:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • stage 3 to, not in, Valdobbiadene
  • Will all readers know that "the Manx sprinter" refers to Cavendish? Is the word Manx a familiar one at all outside the UK?
    • I'd think so, unless we're trying to be accessible to people who don't read English very well. He's the subject of the sentence, and the only other rider named in prose to that point is Petacchi, who is described as Cavendish's rival. Seems clear to me (but, of course it does, I wrote it). And "Manx" is certainly familiar to someone outside the UK ;) Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 03:47, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I assume that that is the agreed, accessibility approved version of Columbia-HTC, and LPR Brakes-Farini: it looks to me more as though it is separating two concepts instead of joining them.
  • The next day, he claimed the jersey, when he was second to stage winner Denis Menchov at Alpe di Siusi and an elite group of favorites emerged.: first comma definitely unnecessary, second one arguably also redundant. It would be good to make a second sentence here, to say who comprised this elite group of contenders.
  • In the following para, the sentence beginning There he claimed a convincing... does not need a comma after the first word.
  • nearly two minutes back of him : is that English? nearly two minutes behind him" seems infinitely preferable to me.
  • King of the mountains points are won at passes that are not stage finishes: that is not the impression given by the sentence about Garzelli's win. Very few roads, and therefore few races, go to the summit of a mountain.
    • Probably a revision would help, but points are won on summit stage finishes. Garzelli was second to Blockhaus, and got 10 mountains points for it - [3]. Garzelli was in the top five (points for the top five) for four of the six summit finishes. That along with the breakaway over Sestrière and having the best time at the intermediate time checks that came at the tops of the climbs in the Cinque Terre time trial is what won him the jersey. It's not as off as you're indicating. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 23:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, points are not won on mountain summits, because civil engineers build roads that follow the easiest route, which means they go through cols and passes, not over peaks. Kevin McE (talk) 07:26, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Is it truly unclear that "summit stage finish" means "a stage finish that ends on a mountain climb" and not "the very tippy tip top of the mountain" ? If so, please revise, because I don't see it. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 02:12, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stage 9: a protest of...: in UK English, at least, protests are at, about or against something, but never of...
  • Quick Step's Seeldraeyers winning the white jersey, Garzelli of Acqua & Sapone winning the green jersey, and Astana winning the Trofeo Fast Team made it eleven teams coming away with a significant prize. Several gerunds as the subject of an informally phrased verb doesn't have the right tone for an encyclopaedia: maybe With wins for Quick Step's Seeldraeyers in the youth classification, Garzelli of Acqua & Sapone in the climbers' competition, and Astana in the Trofeo Fast Team ranking, eleven teams won significant prizes during the race.
  • Should the description of the various competitions not precede the description of their outcomes?
  • Di Luca was announced to have given two positive tests: jars on UK ears: is this the correct construction in US English? Can a more version neutral phrasing be found?
  • Can we give dates or stage numbers rather than the description of the stages on which Di Luca returned dodgy tests?
  • There were also two classifications for teams: plural.
  • "The first is the Trofeo Fast Team. In this classification, the times of the best three cyclists per team on each stage are added,..."
  • Surely the description of the non-jersey awards should immediately follow the statement that they exist, rather than about 5 screen-lengths farther down the page. The team awards are non-jersey awards.
    • Yeah, order of information has been a bit confounding for me the whole time I've been revising this article. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 00:07, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think I've finally got it in a logical order, with minor classifications under the jersey table, but should references 33 and 65 be repeated like they are right now, or would one instance of both at the end of the section suffice? They are consistently used to reference the explanations of each classification and then its winner. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 05:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMHO, the usual bullet list is a far clearer way of listing the "reserve" jersey wearers. Even if the current prose remains, the sentence Each of the first eleven podium presentations awarded multiple jerseys to a particular rider is far from clear. Suggest appending "Such a situation occured after each of the first 11 stages." to the previous paragraph.
  • The sentence on the Trofeo Fuga Cervelo needs to be re-written in a past tense.

I don't know if anyone else shares these views. Kevin McE (talk) 17:25, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by EdgeNavidad
  • In the "Final standings" tables, the winner's row is boldfaced. Although I have seen this in many tables in Wikipedia, I have not seen it in a FA-article, nor can I find justification for this in the MoS. What about this?--EdgeNavidad (talk) 17:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alt text comments by Eubulides

Alt text is done; thanks. Images have alt text (thanks) but the alt text needs some work.

  • A couple of the phrases are not verifiable by a non-expert who is looking only at the images, and need to be removed or moved to caption as per WP:ALT#Verifiability. These phrases are "various cycling teams in the race be publicly presented", and the word "team" in "preparation to start a team race",
  • The lead map's alt text doesn't describe the gist of the map well. It shouldn't contain irrelevant detail like the color used in the map legend; instead, it should briefly say where the path goes (out of Italy, for example; or down past Naples) and should say that the path is interrupted. Please see WP:ALT#Maps for a guideline on this.
    • I'm having trouble with this one, too. How much knowledge of Italian geography should the alt text assume? Map of a boot-shaped country... obviously seems absurd, but Map of Italy showing the path of the race, going counter-clockwise from Venice and through Austria and Switzerland to finish in Rome seems to be assuming an awful lot. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 00:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • The goal is to help the visually impaired reader, who can be assumed to have a bit of knowledge of Italy (and if you say, "across the border into Switzerland" can be assumed to be intelligent enough to deduce that Italy borders Switzerland, even if they didn't know it already). The alt text you substituted is OK, though I wish it'd mention that the path has gaps (non-experts won't know this) and that it goes as far south as Naples before ending in Rome. Eubulides (talk) 00:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Map of Italy showing the path of the race, going counter-clockwise from Venice and crossing the border to pass through Austria and Switzerland, reaching Naples in the south of Italy before finishing in Rome ? Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 02:20, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The image File:Jersey pink.svg has the alt text "Menchov was awarded the final pink jersey as general classification winner", but that alt text doesn't describe the image (which is of a pink jersey). There are ten instances of this sort of thing. Each should have a textual description as well as the jersey, e.g., "[[Image:Jersey pink.svg|20px|link=|alt=]]&nbsp;pink jersey" → " pink jersey", or alt text that simply describes the image, e.g., "[[Image:Jersey pink.svg|20px|alt=Pink jersey]]" → "Pink jersey".
    • Done, but I'll raise why this was done in the first place. In our own discussions of setting up style guidelines for various types of pages (which, by the way, we need to get back to someday), it came up that just putting the jersey icon there doesn't explain what it's for. That's why the alt text came in. Do you think this is still a concern, or should those icons maybe just be eliminated altogether (I'm starting to feel that way). Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 00:30, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've added a legend, which I made during the WP:FL upgrade of List of teams and cyclists in the 2009 Giro d'Italia, which should solve the problem for this article. Since we first now fully understand the concept of "alt text", we should maybe consider implementing the legend I made last year (shown in the bottom of this discussion) to the stage articles? lil2mas (talk) 13:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • The legend is an improvement (thanks) and I think it's good enough. There may be ways to further improve it but that's beyond the scope of this article review. Eubulides (talk) 00:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The alt text tool (at upper right of this review page) reports three usages of File:History.gif that have the alt text "image page". Please fix these images to use empty "|link=|alt=" instead, as per WP:ALT #Purely decorative images. You may have to track down which template is generating that.
Eubulides (talk) 22:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave these out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:30, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a bit afraid of this failing because of inactivity (nobody's said anything here for three days). Is there more that needs to be done, or is the article just hopeless? Please let me know what more I can do. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 00:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Giro d Italia 2009.png - Please add a source for this diagram to the image description page.
    • Well, it was made by User:NielsB at Commons. Do you mean something like this as a source, because I'm sure that was NielsB's source.
  • File:Denis Menchov 2.jpg - I can't find the license for the original image. Could you point me to it? Thanks.
    • Eep. It reportedly was put into the public domain by the Liberty Seguros team, a claim which is supported by a long-dead link to the official page of a long-defunct team. All it's used for is a glamor shot of Menchov, so I'll look for a replacement. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 06:27, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Possible replacement. Would ALT text for this image need to describe the partly-visible individual wearing a pink shirt and glasses with his right arm around Menchov? Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 06:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I won't speak to the alt text, but I'm curious where at the source it releases the image under CC-by-SA 2.1 license. Can you point me to that? I don't speak Spanish, so it is a bit difficult for me to browse the site. Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 03:15, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't know the licensing terms terribly well in English, much less Spanish, but this seems pretty boilerplate. "Feel free *to copy, distribute, and publicly post our work. *to make derivative works. *to make commercial use (?) of our work on the internet" "Under the following conditions *Recognition: You must recognize and cite us as authors, and in the case of a web page, link to the original URL. *Share under the same license: If you alter or transform our work, or if you create a derivative work, you may only distribute it under a license identical to this one." "With the following particular cases 1. This license is not applicable to content published by 20minutos coming from the following third-party sources: Text, graphics, information and images that come signed by or attributed to Agencias, Reuters, Efe, Europa Press, Korpa, Atlas, France Press, AP, Lanetro, Meteotemp, TPI, J.M. Nieto or Jorge París. 2. The drawings of Eneko, Humberto and Calpurnio in their 20minutos comic strips cannot be reproduced with commercial intention." Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 03:35, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These are small issues, easily resolved. Awadewit (talk) 03:13, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All image issues resolved. Awadewit (talk) 00:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – First couple of sections read pretty well to me, but I was left with one question at first. Initially I was unsure whether Di Luca's finish would hold up even after his failed drug tests, but one of the footnotes covers it. Would it be possible to briefly mention this in the body, so that other readers won't have the same confusion I did? Another thing I just saw on a quick glance is that reference 8 shouldn't have "FUJI-SERVETTO" in all caps. Hopefully I'll get a chance to do a proper review at some point. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 03:18, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment The formatting of this article doesn't work. To see the problem you need to view it on a wide shallow screen. The pic of the presentation of teams is being pushed down by the large info box. This causes orphaning of text. Amandajm (talk) 12:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just moved the pic down to the routes and stages paragraph. It's fine there. Amandajm (talk) 11:25, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Okay. I'm still curious what the problem was, because on my screen the picture was a good three or four inches from the infobox, and it's usually me finding elements that collide because of my screen size. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 00:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think there is something of an undue weight issue in the section about the jerseys in contrast to the main race description/evolution. I don't believe that the mentions of the second guy wearing a jersey because of the multiple holdings are as important as some more discussion of the changes in the top few guys, who are not there. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) (help the Invincibles Featured topic drive) 04:27, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not sure I understand what you think is missing. I understand the thought that the reserve wearers don't bear mentioning (I disagree, but I understand). What exactly is this "some more discussion" you'd like to see? Every transition of the pink jersey is mentioned, as is every other transition involving someone who held a jersey for more than a day. Is this what you think is missing, mentions of García, Facci, and Farrar as classification leaders? I, again, disagree, but would love to see others' opinions. Even if something about them were to be included, it would only comprise maybe one further paragraph. The article is only 18K of prose, so we're hardly at an either/or point. Alex finds herself awake at night (Talk · What keeps her up) 05:06, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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