User talk:Rama/Archive 7

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Various new or modified ship articles with a French connection

• Robert (1793 ship)
• HMS Alert (1793)
• Mohawk (1781 ship)
• French brig Pandour (1804)

These have benefited from my receipt of the Clayton book on British whalers. I must say I get an almost indecent pleasure out of making the connections and extending the histories backwards and forwards from the Winfield/Roche/Demerliac, etc. books. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:19, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

It is amusing, is it not? My recent models have induced me in writing article on minor ships that were commanded by old acquaintences, and I had the exact same feeling. For instance, the Lieutenant Pierre Guiyesse of Enfant Prodigue was the commander of Chiffone in the Battle of Mahé. Sadly I have found very little on him.

I'll try to chip in in these new articles, and when the Demerliac arrive I will hopefully often have a little bit something to contribute. Cheers! Rama (talk) 05:35, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Demerliac

Hi Rama, Great news. Of course, this just means that we (or at least I), will inundate you with requests. We have to figure out a way to distribute the burden. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I look forwards to it and hope I will keep the pace.

I have not been able to find anything about an East Indiaman Modeste; there was one in March 1747 in Nantes, but she seems to have been captured at the First Battle of Cape Finisterre.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 12:50, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Various

Hi Rama, Too bad about Modeste. I had found the 1747 Modeste, but figured that she was not the one I was looking for. I had hoped Demerliac would have a better candidate. I have been working on FF Loire and Confiance. I am not yet finished with Confiance as there are still two medal actions (one of them the capture of Cayenne), to add. Seems that she had a pretty respectable career in the Royal Navy. She wasn't that old in 1810, so I wonder what happened to her after she was sold; Winfield does not mention breaking up. Interesting about Kent becoming Cronberg. I have looked, but have no info on what happened to her after she arrived in Denmark. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:59, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Yachts

Hi Rama, HMY William & Mary (1694) would be my guess. I looked in the following book:

• Major, Allen (2012) Royal Yachts. (Amberley Publishing). ISBN 978-1-4456-0189-2

The book is available on line, or at least the paragraphs on the British royal yachts are. Major has a paragraph on each, and if we use the 1710 date from your model as a key clue, William & Mary is the only likely candidate. The Wikipedia description is slightly at variance with the one in Major, and I will be updating the Wiki entry to give the alternatives. One difference is that Major and the model give her eight guns, and the current Wiki entry is 10, but that is not a major discrepancy given that she had such a long life and probably underwent periodic renovation. I would suggest that adding your picture to the article would be legitimate. She was an important vessel and so the likely subject for a model. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:06, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Spoke too soon. HMY Fubbs could be a candidate too, though that is less likely as by 1710 she was a bomb ketch. Acad Ronin (talk) 15:37, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

As the model is pierced for 10 guns and carried 8, she seems to be very much in line with the description of William & Mary; Fubbs is said to have carried 12, which could be consistent as well if swivel guns were counted and were not present on the model. I have taken the liberty of assuming the most probable and putting the photograph on William & Mary, with a "probably" as caveat; do not hesitate to revert this if you think it is insufficiently cautious.

Thank you very much for the expertise, looking forwards to more mysteries. Cheers! Rama (talk) 09:08, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

Hi Rama, First, let me thank you for putting in the photo of the model of "William and Mary". I think our identification is correct, and even if it isn't we are not far off. Also, I doubt that there are more than a handful of people in the world, if that, who have better info. If they do, we can change the entry, as you say. Incidentally, three years ago my wife and I were in St Malo on our way to walk the Jersey coastal path. In the train station at St Malo there is model of Surcouf's French cutter Renard (1812). I took a photo of it, which now graces the article, but I admire your skill and patience in getting rid of the glass cases and all other clutter. Next time you are in St Malo? Anyway, re Demerliac. I have two requests please:

Triton (1787 EIC ship) - she was in French hands between 1796 and 1797/8. She was a merchant vessel so he probably does not have anything, but as with Cronberg, perhaps there's something. I am particularyly interested in which RN vessel recaptured Triton.

HMS Boreas (1774) - I make reference to the French vessel(s) Compas. The Demrliac references are: Demerliac (1996), p.107, #742, & p.108, #755. What year was the second Compas broken up? I have only c.1810. Is there any chance the two could be the same vessel, perhaps separated by a capture/recapture?

Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 17:57, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

Nice photographs of Renard, and good idea to take it from above, as to show the equipment on deck. I could try to detour it as well, if you like; the main difficulty is that the topsail is cut, so I would need quite a bit of creativity there, but the rest seems quite doable. Incidentally, if memory serves me well, there is a historic model of Confiance in the staircase at the entrance of the museum in the castle of Saint-Malo. Last time I was there, I really had to run and could not spare the time to take a useful photograph, I hope somedoby manages to someday.

Moving on...

• Triton: Demerliac (2003, p. 310, no 2919 and p. 172, no 1239) say that she was sold to a Danish and American shipping company in October 1796. Between April and October, the authorities of Ile de France would have used her for public service duties (or for the defence of the island?). I have nothing after that, sadly. If she retained her name and Demerliac is correct, maybe we could find her trace by asking our Danish or American friends who have similar ressources.
• Compas: there seem to have been two different Compas: Compas, a Compas-class scow (1776-1779, 500t, 38.1m×8.4×4.2, with 18 8-pounders) and Compas, a Truite-class scow (1780-1781, 350t, 37.7×8.1×4.3, 8 to 20 cannons). Demerliac seems to suspect that they may be the same ship, but from Roche I have the impression that would not have been (he states she was on keel in 1779 and launched in 1780, so she could not have been the 1776 ship re-launched after a recapture and rebuild). In any case, the Compas of 1780 was truck from the lists in Brest in 1781, and her ultimae fate is not known.

Incidentally, since we seem to gravivate around Surcouf's career, I am a bit confused as to was happened to Charles: Demerliac states that she was captured by HMS Amelia, which does report having captured a privateer named Charles, but details seem curiously off after this. The Charles mentionned by Amelia is said to have been a new ship (the ex-Sémillante was quite old, though recently rebuilt), from Bordeaux (Saint-Malo), of 300 tons (600), and a "strong handsome ship, capable of mounting much heavier metal than she now has" (this part, for a change, sounds consistant with a former military frigate). So I don't quite know what to make of it, and I would loath to be jumping to conclusions and be insufficiently cautious. Do you think it possible that a former naval frigate of 600 tons would be reported as a 300-ton corvette when captured as a privateer?

In any case, thank you very much for everything, and do not hesitate if more questions arise. Cheers! Rama (talk) 06:18, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Thanks for the help.

• 1) I wouldn't bother detouring the Renard. The case and other stuff add context. We were in the Saint Malo castle but completely overlooked Confiance. My wife wasn't feeling well and we didn't stay long.
• 2) Triton. Why does Demerliac have two entries? In any case am going to wait before I add in your information. One problem is that I can't figure out how she went from Danish - American ownership to the Royal Navy recapturing her. I got the information on the recapture from snippet views in Google Books of a book, Ships of the East India Company, by Rowan Hackman, published in 2001. Fortunately, it is now published on computer-readable CD; unfortunately, it is now only available from the UK-based World Ship Society, which is staffed by volunteers and apparently only answers email sporadically. The cost is within budget so if I can establish contact I will get it; I end up doing a lot on East Indiamen so it would be a worthwhile addition. (Personally, I think Google Books should come up with a way for Wikipedia researchers to bypass their restrictions. :-) ) P.S.: I meant to add, in the months between her capture and sale, Triton may simply have been sitting at anchor. The process of libeling a ship took time, as did arranging the sale. The government in Mauritius may not have put her to any use whatsoever during the process.
• 3) Charles. That is a puzzle. Too many sources all report the Surcouf to Amelia story. Apparently Charles sank on her return and was rebuilt. The 600 tons to 300 tons, is a bit of a puzzle, but the 600 is almost certainly not burthen but rather displacement, which is often noticeably greater than burthen. Also, in her rebuild she may have been razee a little, though that usually refers to multi-deckers, not frigates. The biggest puzzle is the inconsistency between Captain Irby of Amelia″s description and her fate. He speaks quite glowingly of Charles, but the Royal Navy didn't take her into service and I can't find her in Lloyd's Register, suggesting that she was indeed broken up. If you read German, one of my sources is: http://home.arcor.de/thomas_siebe/semillante.html For now, I am going to footnote the discrepancy.
• 4) If you get a chance, could you look at Surprize (1780 ship) and Princess Royal (1786 Indiaman). Apparently French frigate Forte (1794) captured Surprize and some other Indiamen. Jean-Marie Dutertre in Malartic captured Princess Royal; Princess Royal had previously been captured, renamed Dougay Trouin, and recaptured.

Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

1) one day I should look into organising a serious photographic campaign in Saint-Malo, with a partnership from the museums there and support from Wikimedia France. And plunder the book shops.

2) Demerliac lists ships by status, so Triton appears first as a privateer (basically for the trip between her capture and Ile de France) and secondly as a ship of the authorities, after she was siezed. He is aware of how confusing it might become, so each entry mentions the other and states it is indeed the same ship. I will do a little bit of data mining on my old sources today, including Triton in the batch (I have downloaded 19th century books in text format, so I can run little programs that retrieve certain patterns very quickly over them all).

3) between the disparency of the units, the ambiguity of measurements (length of keel vs total, ton burthen vs displacement, etc.) and sometimes downright errors in retranscriptions, I always wonder what the margin of error is. Maybe Charles was adequate as a privateer but in poor state as a frigate, and I suppose that the capturer would have a vested interest in seeling his prize to the Navy.

4) Looking, I'll add the information I mangae to find directly into the respective articles.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 05:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

POTD notification

POTD

Hi Rama,

Just to let you know, the Featured Picture File:M209B-IMG 0557.JPG is due to make an appearance as Picture of the Day on October 4, 2015. If you get a chance, you can check and improve the caption at Template:POTD/2015-10-04. Thank you for all of your contributions! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:25, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Congratulations. Acad Ronin (talk) 02:01, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

Hi Rama,

I have three new requests.

HMS Barbuda (1780) - became French Navy Barboude, French privateer Inabordable, and French corvette Legere. There is a real problem here with the chain of names/vessels. Between HMS Barbuda and HMS Legere there is a 50% increase in her burthen.

Bunker Hill (1778 ship) - the French Navy may have purchased her in 1783 as Surprize or Surprise.

Orénoque (1781 ship) - ex-French privateer (Demerliac #1937), and later French Navy's Viscomte de Damas (Demerliac #524). When I wrote the article I had a borrowed copy of Demerliac, but I don't know if I put in all that was available.

Anyway, thanks for any help that you may be able to provide. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:01, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

• HMS Barbuda:
  • Barboude, 320 tons; became the 22-gun privateer Inabordable in 1793, but purchased or requisitionned in Le Havre in May the same year, and wrecked near Cherbourg in December 1793. Demerliac gives her date of captured by the Royal Navy as possibly 1780. (Demerliac 1774-1792, p.70, n°438),

BUT

• • Légère would have been the privateer Inabordable, requisitioned in June 1793 at Le Havre (confirmed to be the ex-Barboude). With a size given as "320/600 tons" (probably hull volume capacity and displacement), and 453 tons as measured by the Royal Navy. 6 officers and 230 men, coppered. (Demerliac 1792-1799, p.82, n°474),

I would suspect two different ships mistaken for one another, but there is nothing to support that conjecture. (nothing more in Roche)

• Bunker Hill: sorry, no Bunker Hill in my records and none of the Surprise match
• Orénoque: 18 guns; as Vicomte de Damas, she is said to have been a brig. Roche (vol. 1 p. 461) gives he as sold in 1784.

Congratulations on all this excellent work and cheers! Rama (talk) 06:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Thanks. I've put in what you gave me re Barboude/Legere. Some things are just destined to remain mysteries. Acad Ronin (talk) 16:20, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps in the fullness of times. Demerliac is not a complete panacea, unfortunately. Cheers! Rama (talk) 16:31, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, One new request: HMS Ceres (1777) - the French Navy captured her twice, and lost her once. As always, any info would be appreciated. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:10, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

Cérès, also called Petite Cérès (to distinguish her from the 12-pounder frigate Cérès). Was apparently copperred when captured. (Demerliac 1774-1792, p.72, no 453)

Roche (vol.1 p.104) indicates that she departed Guadeloupe on 15 April 1782 before being captured.

All the other details are already in your excellent article. I'll try to run a few queries on my naval corpora and I'll let you know if I find anything further. Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:03, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Implemented. Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 02:31, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, FYI: I have the new Winfield and Roberts book (French Warships:1786-1861), which may provide some info not in Roche or Demerliac. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:57, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh, excellent news! I look forwards to seeing what this yields. Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:25, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Apparently one of the things it is raising is interesting questions. HMS Speedy (1782) is a case in point. The book has the French capturing her three times, the first time by Resolue and Friponne on 11 August 1782, with the Brits recapturing her on 6 December 1782 at Barbados. There is no mention of this in Rif Winfield's (1793-1817) book, or in Hepper's book of British warship losses. Is there anything in Demerliac? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 17:44, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

Yes, this is confirmed in Demerliac 1774-1792 (p.77, n°495) and Roche (vol.1 p.422). The capture in 1782 is also mentionned in Troude (vol.2 p. 205), and adds that she was captured with HMS Swift (1779), which seems consistant with what I find on HMS Swift. Finally, we have Guérin (vol.5, p.120) who also mentionned Swift and Speedy, as well as the 10-gun privateer Queen. Guérin mentions the recapture of Speedy in December at p. 124 of the same volume, saying that her captain, Ribiers, was killed as well as "a large part of the crew".

Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:52, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Excellent. Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 21:07, 25 September 2015 (UTC)::::Do you happen to have a full citation for Guerin? I haven't been ablew to find him in Google books. Acad Ronin (talk) 02:31, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I am sorry, I though you were aware of User:Rama/Bibliothèque Marine. In this case I was refering to

Guérin, Léon (1857). Histoire maritime de France (in French). Vol. 5. Dufour et Mulat.

or in copy-paste, {{cite book|title=Histoire maritime de France|last=Guérin|first=Léon|authorlink=Léon Guérin|year=1857|publisher=Dufour et Mulat|url=http://books.google.com/?id=95BKAAAAMAAJ|language=French|volume=5}}

You should be able to retrieve the book itself from Google Books in PDF and text forms, but should you run into difficulties, do not hesitate to ask me for the files. When you have them in these formats, something as simple as grep Speedy *.txt can do wonders. Cheers! Rama (talk) 05:23, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, That's great. I will have to store the link to your Bibliothèque Marine. I am surprised that last night I couldn't find the Guerin on line because this morning I could, at least when I started from your link, and could search it easily. Lots of good info there. However, in the meantime, I reached out to David Hepper, and he proved conclusively that the Speedy and Swift the Friponne and Resolue captured were not HMS Speedy and HMS Swift, but rather two packet boats. I now have to remove the info I added to the Speedy article, but there is no waste as I can still add it to the Resolue and Solitaire articles. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:55, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

French brig Speedy (1782)

French brig Colibri (1802)

Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:15, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I'll chip in the respective articles. Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

It seems that all my sources mix up the packet ship Speedy with HMS Speedy, so I am afraid that I cannot help much with this one. I have put one of two things in Colibri, but that mostly amounted to confirming what you already had. Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:23, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the Colibri additions. Is there any way to get any of the illustrations that you refer to about the decoration of Colibri? It was a long shot that you would be able to find anything on Speedy. I think many authors, especially the French, simply assumed that Speedy and Swift were naval vessels. Lastly, do you know anything about copyright on postage stamps. I have found a pretty one of the Indiaman Triton, but I have in the back of my mind that one cannot use postage stamps. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:29, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Demerliac says that the decorations of Colibri were reproduced in Roger Lepelley's book La Manche, frégate française, 1803-1810, I think that this is our best bet, but I have no idea as to where we could readily consult this book.

For stamps, Wikimedia Commons has a nice review here [1]; depending whether the stamp is British and how old it is, it could go either way.

Thank you for your outstanding and dedicated work! Rama (talk) 19:21, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

I was able to borrow a copy of Hackman's book on the British East India Company vessels. Unfortunately I will only have it for just under a month. If you have any questions on any EIC ship please let me know. I am working my way through the existing WP articles and am finding that although Hackman doesn't have as much detail as the UK National Archives, he often has little bits that it doesn't have that he gleaned from newspapers, Lloyd's List, and the like, and also he has a line or two on many vessels that the company chartered for which there are no records in the National Archives.

Thanks for the lead re stamps. I will see what's possible as the stamp is from Mauritius.

Could you please look at Admiral Barrington (1781 ship)? I am looking for anything that Demerliac might have on a privateer named Diede that captured her in 1797.

Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:51, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

I am quite certain that the name would be Décidé, which was a rather common name for privateers (Diede has no meaning that I know of and yields no match). Among the two in service in 1797, the most likely is a 180-ton 16-gun brig nicknamed "the black corsair" (which is as sexy as Nina Simone covering the Threepenny Opera). She was under Captain Beck (or Beeck) until June 1797, then Lanthomme (Gallois writes "Lantonne" in Corsaires français sous la République) until August, and enventually under Michel Noel until December 1797, when she was sold (p. 267 no2348).

I can't find Admiral Barrington listed as a privateer (as sometimes happens for prizes); I have tried to skim through the list of merchant ships of 1781/1782, but there are many that could match and the list itself is incomplete, so I am afraid we will not unearth her original name.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:30, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, thanks for your efforts. I too thought that Decide, or one of its variants, was a more probable name. I will go with that in a footnote, but emphasize that everything is tentative. I am not surprised that you didn't find an original name for Admiral Barrington. We have no real idea of when the vessel that became her was captured, when she was sold, etc. It was a long-shot. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:37, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Two more, please.

1) HMS Sartine was a French vessel captured at Pondicherry and taken into the RN. I have Demerliac sources for her. However, there are French accounts that the governor and other officials at Pondicherry left in a cartel Sartine after the British captured the town. The French accounts, which I have lost, imply that this is the same vessel as the one the British captured, but this is not likely as the RN's records are clear that she sank in 1780 in RN service. The cartel was armed with one gun, for signalling purposes, and was fired on by a RN ship as she returned to France. The British vessel had mistaken the white cartel flag for the French ensign. As Sartine finally sailed into Marseilles harbour, she foundered, almost blocking the entrance. Do any of your sources have any info on the cartel Sartine?

2) On 10 December 1796, the French privateer Esperse (22), Captain Le Dane, captured the Bengal Pilot Service snow/brig Cornwallis, and sent her into Maruitius. Do any of your sources shed any light on Esperse, or what happened to Cornwallis after her capture?

Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 00:09, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello

the Sartine that was the 26-gun corvette of the French East India Company seem indeed to be foreign to the cartel to Marseille; no mention of that part of the story is made in Roche (vol.1 p.406), not in Demerliac (1774-1792, no1296, p.151).

The cartel was probably another ship. She is mentionned in a footnote of Cunat's Histoire du Bailli de Suffren ("Le 1er mai 1780, à S heures du soir, à 6 lieues dans le S. du cap Saint-Vincent, le vaisseau-cartel le Sartine, ayant à bord M. et Mme de Belle-Combe et des soldats du régiment de Pondichéry, fut canonné parle vaisseau de guerre le Romney, quoiqu'il eût arboré le pavillon parlementaire. Le capitaine Dallés et deux hommes furent tués, après quoi le commandant Rodlam-Home lui envoya un canot pour le visiter. Le cartel entra à Cadix."). She apparently started the story of Marseille harbour being jammed by a sardine (the francophone wiki has an article: fr:C'est la sardine qui a bouché le port de Marseille). Paul Barras was aboard and gives an account in his Mémoires ([2], pp 22-25 (pages 110-113 of the PDF file)). There are 6 Sartine in Demerliac but non matches her description.

Neither Esperse not "Le Dane" (or "Ledane", "Ledanne", etc.) yield any match. I would suspect that "Esperse" might be a deformation of a French word, but I can't see anything obvious, and there is not Mauritius privateer with a name close to this. Sorry.

thank you for all the good work! Rama (talk) 18:20, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

And another, please.

Thanks for checking on Sartine and Cornwallis. I was 99.9% sure the two Sartines were separate vessels, but when one investigates these old records sometimes one finds surprises. I noticed that the French Wikipedia then is in error; it conflates the two Sartines. As for Cornwallis, I am having a lot of difficulty finding out what vessel she was, let alone who captured her. Thanks for your efforts though. Knowing what we don't know is valuable too.

Here is the next puzzle. There is a merchant vessel the Coromandel (1793 ship). Hackman reports that she was the French vessel Modeste (a completely different Modeste from the one that became Locko), captured in 1793 and repaired at Chittagong. Do we know anything about this Modeste? Furthermore, in 1805 the French privateer Henriette captured Coromandel on 15 March. The British recaptured her when they took Mauritius on 3 December 1810. Do we know anything about Henriette, or what happened to Coromandel under French owenership?

Thanks for your help. I am enjoying this and hope you are too. Acad Ronin (talk) 19:30, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

About Sartine, that is my impression as well, and I have left a note in the francophone Wikipédia to that effect.

I do very much enjoy these little mysteries, but I am a little bit apprehensive at not being able to answer some of your inquiries; I suppose that this is inevitable at the granularity level we are reaching, but I would much rather have bottomless sources from which to quecnh our thrist.

I have been unable to find anything on Coromandel, and none of the number of Modeste seem to match, unfortunately. On the other hand, I am going to put up a little article for Henriette with what I have. Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:55, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

PS: now available at Henriette; not a huge thing to get by, but better than nothing, links to HMS Powerful, which I then linked to Bellone... you know how these things take a life unto themselves. Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:19, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Just saw your edits on Coromandel and Powerful, for which many thanks. I have just found a little on Henriette in:

• Austen, Harold Chomley Mansfield (1935) Sea Fights and Corsairs of the Indian Ocean: Being the Naval History of Mauritius from 1715 to 1810. (Port Louis, Mauritius:R.W. Brooks).

I will look at your article on her before I add in anything. I have borrowed the Austen book and have it by my desk and I will see what he has.

I know what you mean re things getting out of hand. Looking for one thing you find another and feel you should add that info while you have it...

I just wish that our predecessors had kept better records, giving tonnages and masters' names whenever they had mentioned a vessel, keeping LLoyd's Register up to date and correct, etc. It would make tracking vessels so much easier. Still, as the Americans say, "If it was easy they wouldn't have to pay us the big bucks." Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:23, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Sometimes the gods of research smile on us. I hope you like what I was able to do with Henriette. By the way, Austen suggests that she was a prize before Henry acquired her at Bordeaux. Tracking that down appears to be harder. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:52, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Wonderful!

Demerliac actually does suggest that Henriette might be connected (identified as?) an American prize, the 130-ton brig Harriet, from Baltimore, captured by the French privateer Hirondelle in the Carribean on 22 November 1803. Her displacement is a bit off (130 tons for Harriet vs 242 tons for Henriette), but with a bit of rebuilding, equipment and different measurement units and methods, it is not impossible. I have not be able to follow that lead further, but with your resources you might be in position to confirm the connection.

I hope for many other cases like this one! Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:03, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

PS: the Caroline mentioned in your additions was the ship of Nicolas Surcouf (Robert's brother), definitely something to write about! Rama (talk) 08:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, I was delighted to see the article on Caroline, and was able to add some info on her. I found the name of her captor, and found out that she was accidentally sunk within days of her capture. I have added a postscript to the article on HMS Sartine (1778) concerning the other Sartine. I would appreciate it if you could look at it to see if I have the story reasonably straight. Also, could you please check to see if Demerliac has anything on an Eclipse, not a French navy vessel but possibly a privateer, launched in 1804 and captured in 1806. She became HMS Decouverte (1806). Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 00:46, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Also, do you have anything on Admiral Aplin (1802 EIC ship), which French frigate Psyché (1804) captured in 1804 and took into Mauritius? By the way, could the Esperse, of which there was no trace, have been an Esperance? Again, 22 guns and Balasore Roads in 1796. Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 03:04, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I was secretly hoping you would find the name of the captor of Caroline, and as often I was not disapointed!

For Sartine, Barras leaves no doubt that Romney opening fire on her was due to a misunderstanding, and quite possibly an understandable one. The French article on the expression alludes to a mixup in the signals (it is neither very explicit nor sourced, unfortunately), so it is quite possible that part of the blame for the incident lies on Sartine herself.

Eclipse: very little on her, unfortunately; the only thing that the existing article does not mention is that she was "rigged as a brig or schooner", which is not a tremendous find.

Admiral Aplin: nothing on her, unfortunately

Esperse/Espérance: I had thought of that and checked similar names like Espérance, Épervier, Entreprenant, Entreprise, Espoir, Espiègle, Espion and Esteck for ships whose service dates could match. The only privateer named Espérance that could fit the dates was a cutter from Saint-Malo, whose capture is mentioned in HMS Harpy (1796); from the description of this ship, I think it unlikely that she would have crossed into the Indian Ocean. The less unlikely candidate I've managed to find could be the Mauritius privateer Jean Bart, a 20 to 22-gun corvette renamed Entreprise around 1795, and whose captain was François Legars.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 10:33, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Thanks for your efforts. I saw the corrections on Caroline and Sartine, and the new article on sardines choking Marseille. I was chuffed when I was able to pin down Caroline's captor and her ultimate fate. I think it was a French website I looked at some years ago that gave me the idea that Romney firing on Sartine (II) was due to a confusion of flags, which I suppose in a sense it was. I should have realised that you would try any reasonable variant of Esperse. So for all these other vessels we'll just have to hope for a lucky find some day. Best, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:46, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

Hi Rama:

• I have added some info re Caroline (1804 ship) that raises new questions. Austen says that Caroline was a vessel that Robert and Nicholas had captured, presumably in the Indian Ocean. Apparently they captured a Caroline, but whether it was the same vessel is highly unlikely given the Demerliac. Incidentally, Austen has the complete muster roll for Caroline when she was paid off, including the shares and prize money distribution to all her crew.
• Is there any info on the Mornington (1799 ship) that Caroline captured? What about the privateer Ile de France? So far I cannot find any confirmation that Mornington was twice captured, and twice recaptured.
• In 1793 the British captured a small 2-gun tartane at Toulon called Petite Sans Culotte (1793 tartane). Winfield and Roberts state that this is the same vessel as Brave Sans Culotte, but I believe that they are wrong. As best I recall, and I can't find my source, Petite Sans Culottes was called that to distinguish her from the 16-gun Brave Sans Culottes. The Brits manned her with men from HMS Victory and called her Petite Victoire. Currently the article says she was lost of Cape Corse in December 1793, but I have just found evidence that she was still in RN service in March 1794 when she grounded. Do you have any info here?

Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 03:15, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

• Caroline: no Caroline matches a prize taken at that time
• Ile de France: commissioned as a privateer at Ile de France under Fallouard, with 71 men and 8 guns; captured by HMS Duncan circa April 1804, retaken by Sémillante on 15 May 1806 and scuttled as being "of low value and a poor sailor".
• Mornington: no Mornington at all, sorry
• There have been lots of Sans-Culotte and other close names, including two Brave Sans-Culotte: a xebec (1793-1795) and a privateer from Marseille (1793). The xebec was also called Petit Sans-Culotte, carried 14 6-pounders, and was captured at Toulon in August 1793 and retaken in December (Demerliac 1792-1799, p.112 no 723); of the other one, nothing more is mentionned (Demerliac 1792-1799, p.282 no 2525). I have skimmed through the other possible Sans-Culotte but none seems to be a possible match. THe taratane you are looking for might be under our radar.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 16:57, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Good night

I invite you to edit Calicut Review — Preceding unsigned comment added by EditorFromAsia (talk • contribs) 14:22, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Two Demerliac requests

Hi Rama, here they are:

• Pondicherry (c.1750 ship) - if I have asked you about her before, I apologize. She was a French East Indiaman that HMS Dover captured and that became the British East Indiaman Pitt.
• French ship Sans Culotte - I am still trying to find out something more about Petit Victoire. In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you could fill out a little Demerliac info on the others, if you have the time.

Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:27, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

I have edited the articles directly from what I have found. I think I have squeezed my sources dry as far as Sans-Culotte is concerned. Incidentally, Demerliac lists Petite Victoire as a separate ship, a 2-gun brig armed in Toulon in July 1793 (nothing else known, origin unknown, captured by the British and lost off Cape Corse).

Cheers! Rama (talk) 10:40, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama: Wonderful. I hated the "c.1750" imprecision with Pondichery, and am delighted to see that Demerliac had the info. I am also delighted to see the expansion of the "Sans-Culotte" list. It will give me plenty to do in trying to make more precise the identity of some of the RN captors of the vessels. Lastly, the Demerliac info re Petite Victoire is excellent. I knew there was such a 2-gun vessel. Please let the French Wikipedia funding committee know that their grant is being put to good use and much appreciated by this "ros-bif". I also deeply appreciate your willingness to look up and write down what you find. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:22, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

They will be thrilled. I seize the opportunity to thank you for pointing me at usefulf things to document. Good continuation! Rama (talk) 13:01, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

David Hepper, author of British Warship Losses in the Age of Sail, 1650-1859, answered my inquiry re Petite Victoire and confirmed most of what little we know. She was definitely not the Brave Sans Cullote, and she was a 2-gun tartane. Do you have the exact citation (page and Demerliac N° for Petite Victoire? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 17:36, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Petite Victoire, no. 1133, p.160. Brig-rigged aviso of unknown origin in service in Toulon circa July 1793, 2 6-pounder guns. Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:19, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Three Demerliac requests

Hi Rama, here they are:

• French ship Brutus (1780)
• Egyptienne (ship) - a popular name around 1800, with a number of naval vessels and privateers
• Prince of Wales (1786 ship) - she was on a slave voyage from West Africa to Barbados in 1795 when an unnamed French privateer captured her. The British somehow regained control of her in 1796 or 1797. Is there anything in French sources? I have found nothing in British sources.

Thanks, and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 17:47, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

I had very little to add to your article on Brutus, and sadly nothing on Prince of Wales. On the other hand, I have consolidated what we know on the various Égyptienne (or similar). Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:19, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama,

• Brutus - every little bit helps. I am a great believer in pointilism - building up a picture from dots.
• Egyptienne - nice additions. even if we never get enough info for articles on most of these, if some historian or genealogist is checking on a vessel by that name, they will now know what there is to be known outside of the archives.
• Prince of Wales - thanks for trying. With so little to go on I would have been astonished if you had made a connection. It would have required a mention of Prince of Wales herself.

So, again many thanks. I suspect I will be reverting with more questions before too long. Acad Ronin (talk) 00:27, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, I have some more:

• French frigate Infatigable (1799)
• Lady Penrhyn (1786 ship). A French privateer by the name of "Duke of Danzig" captured and scuttled her in 1811. Do we know anything about the privateer?
• HMS Révolutionnaire (1794) captured the privateer "Bourdelaise", or "Bordelais", which may possibly also have had the name "Magnifique", in 1799. The RN took her into service as "Bordelais". We don't have WP article on her yet, but I would like to store up some info on her for later.

Regards, and thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 15:54, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

• I am afraid there is little to add to Infatigable, since your article is quite complete
• Duc de Dantzig (1810 ship) is going to be an interesting one
• I will put some material at Bordelais (1798 ship).

Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:24, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama: Duc de Dantzig - Nice start. Some questions, though. In the introduction you said she was launched in 1799, but in the ship box you gave a year of 1803. Which is correct? (I changed 1799 to 1803, but I want to confirm.) Also, could the year have been 1808? That was the year that Napoleon appointed Marshal Lefebvre the first "Duke of Dantzig". I don't believe the title existed before then. Or could she have had another name before 1808? Lastly, I have found eight mentions of the privateer "Duke of Dantzig" in Lloyd's List between 1808 and August 1812. I will start working my way through them shortly to see what else I can add. I hope there will be some leads that will enable me to link other articles to her. Merci, et bon continuation, Acad Ronin (talk) 21:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

1799 was indeed wrong, I meant 1803. Demerliac says 1803; now whether this was a misreading from a handwritten "1808" in the archives, or that the ship was built then and repurposed in between, I would not know. On the other hand, Demerliac states that she was commissioned as a privateer in 1810, but we have mentions of her prizes in 1808, so we might want to take some critical distance. Maybe state that there is recorded activity of the ship from 1808.

I look forwards very much to seeing your additions. Cheers! Rama (talk) 06:39, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama,

• Bordelais: I have filled it out as best I could, using English sources. I noticed that you mentioned that her plans exist, but you did not cite where. Can we get a copy of her lines to use as an illustration in the shipbox? I believe there also exists a painting of Bordelais battling Curieuse, but I haven't been able to find it online.
• Duc de Danzig: I am going to go with 1808, but with a note mentioning Demerliac and 1803. Before I start working my way through the Lloyd's List mentions, I just want to confirm that Demerliac does not have several privateers by that name. Is it correct that there was only one Duc de Danzig or Duc de Dantzig?
  

Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:35, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, only one Duc de Danzig in Demerliac.

My mind seems to have drifter mid-sentance and I saved without finishing, sorry about that. The plans of Bordelais are, according to Demerliac, reproduced in Clippers français; I do not have access to this book, but I will leave a note to our colleagues at WP:fr and see if somebody can find something. The painting would also be a tremendous asset, do you have any idea where it might be exposed?

Cheers and thank you for you excellent work! Rama (talk) 20:55, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, I have put in what I have been able to find on Duc de Dantzig. François Aregnaudeau looks like a worthy topic for a biography, but that's generally outside my priorities. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any other WP articles to link to Duc de Dantzig so that I can get rid of that silly banner about too few links. I believe the reference to the painting of Bordelais and Curieuse was in a catalog of an exhibition around 1900. Unfortunately, not only can't I find the painting, I can no longer find the reference. Many thanks, Acad Ronin (talk)

I will try to see what my electronic sources hold on these subjects, and maybe see if I can find something from the Curieuse angle, though the painting might continue to elude us. Thank you and cheers! Rama (talk) 06:11, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, That's the trouble with Wikipedia. A little question, "Do you have anything on Duke of Danzig" and now we have two interesting, non-stub articles. By the way, in the article on François Aregnaudeau, you mention that the Cullands Grove was worth 2.5 million in insurance money. However, what is missing is a currency (pounds, livres, piastres,?). Of course, it now turns out that Culland's Grove was on the return leg of her maiden voyage to Bengal as an extra ship for the British East India Company, so I need to do a stubby article on her. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 15:15, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh sorry, it was 2.5 million francs. Yes, that gives us a nice exponential explosion, doesn't it? The "ghost ship" story is really amusing, I'll have to track down where Gallois published it originally. I look forwards very much to Culland's Grove, I expected you would not resist the temptation for long. Thank you and good hunting! Rama (talk) 15:32, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I could not resist doing articles on Culland's Grove, or on HMS Flirt. But, as I suspected, you could not resist doing one on Blonde. Blonde was a relatively new vessel so I would guess that she was sold, but I have not been able to find a trace. If the new owners changed her name in her case I have no other clues to follow. By the way, great picture of Wolverine.

Now, I have generated three new Demerliac requests, please.

• HMS Charlotte (1798) - as Vengeur, was she a privateer or a naval vessel?
• HMS Dominica (1810)
• HMS Esperance (1795) - this one was twice in French hands, under different names, but I believe both times as a French naval vessel, not a privateer.

In the meantime, I will try to reclassify more privateers by their nationality. Regards, and thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 00:41, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

I have added litte bits here and there, but you articles are so complete that I can scarcely do more than confirm your findings by adding redunding references.

• Vengeur was definitly a naval vessel
• My sources indicate that Dominica had a French letter of marque, so I edited accordingly, but do not hesitate to revert or qualify this should your sources hint in that direction. Seeing from a ship like Decatur, it seems that the lines were somewhat blurry as to what counted as an American or as a French privateer.
• Esperance was indeed a naval vessel both times.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 07:51, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Thanks. Given the vessels and times we are dealing with it is always good to have confirmation, and additional sources.

I am getting a sense that after the end of the Quasi-War with France, a number of entrepreneurial Americans fitted out privateers against British trade, but that sailed under the French flag and under French letters of marque. Also, some French privateer captains recruited sailors from America, particularly Charleston. It was just business. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:13, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

Hi Rama, I have four what I hope are more minor requests.

• HMS Magnet (1809)
• HMS Musquito (1794)
• HMS Pultusk (1807)
• HMS Swaggerer (1809)

These were all French privateers. Thanks, and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:38, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

Thanks to your request, I chanced upon the list of prizes taken in the Capture of the Dutch fleet at Den Helder, something I had been wondering about recently, so thank you for that!

I have added what I could to these articles, not much most of the time. The Bonaparte that would have become Swaggerer is a bit of a mystery, there are five privateers and a schooner of that name, but the dates do not match; details on these ships are often patchy (I suspect very small ships), and those large enough to feature some degree of information do not clearly match the detail for Swaggerer. Any chance you could provide further clues?

Cheers and good continuation! Rama (talk) 18:48, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, I am afraid we are stuck on Bonapart/Swaggerer. When I looked for any information on her capture I found nothing. Demerliac was my last hope. I suspect that she was a vessel commissioned in the Caribbean for which information never reached back to France. I have tidied up Capture of the Dutch fleet at Den Helder and added some more info from a Dutch source. I suspect that many of the vessels were over-aged and left sitting there with only a skeleton crew because it was winter and they were iced-in. I did have two questions, though. I treated the Fl100 million as applying to the entire list of prizes, not just the ships-of-the-line. Is that correct? Also, I noticed that the French sources report that the infantry rode on the rumps of the hussars' horses. A more usual method at the time was for the infantrymen to run alongside the horses whilst holding on to the riders' stirrups. Are the sources unambiguous on this issue? I appreciate the explanation of Razoir national; I always wondered what that meant but was too lazy to try to find out. Lastly, thanks for what you were able to find out about the other vessels. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:13, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello, and thank you for your help with Den Helder. The Fl100 million are listed with the ships of the line in Demerliac, but no other amount is specified for the other ships, so I'd say your assumption is a fair bet. I will ask the opinion of an expert for the mounted infantry, we are lucky enough to have a very knowledgeable writer on wp-fr.

As for Bonaparte/Swaggerer, "Caribbean" would be a useful clue: I do have a privateer probably from Saint-Malo that operated near Guadeloupe. Her name was Alliance, renamed Bonaparte in September 1799, commissioned under Ensign Pierre Martin with 30 men and 12 4-pounders, involved in a battle against the British off Porto-Rico on 14 October 1799, and captured by HMS Echo on 16 (Demerliac p.320 no 2734). She is mentionned in Les Corsaires français sous la République and in Histoire des marins français sous la République. Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:02, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

PS: The Fonds Marine also mention another privateer Bonaparte that is reported to have battled HMS Hippomenes on 21 June 1804, commanded by Paimpéni. Rama (talk) 17:37, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Thanks for looking into my two Helder queries. The issues are not critical, but I like to be accurate. I don't think either of your Caribbean Bonapartes are Swaggerer. The first is too early, and my impression of privateers is that they tend to have short privateering lives: a few cruises and that is it. If they are successful, the owners and captains get out of the business. If they are unsuccessful, the owners and captains get out out of the business. For the second Bonaparte you mention, the story of the engagement with Hippomenes is in the Hippomenes article. Clearly, Bonaparte got away due to lack of discipline on the part of Hippomenes's crew. However, this Bonaparte appears to be the one that HMS Cyane captured a few months later and that the RN took into service as HMS Pert. Pert was already wrecked before the Navy captured the Bonaparte that became Swaggerer. (I have now added HMS Pert to my list of ships to write up as apparently there is French information about her and her captain prior to the Royal Navy capturing that Bonaparte.) In looking through English sources I have tried a number of variant spellings, and similar names, and just haven't found anything. Even trying to find other vessels captured in late 1808-early 1809 in the Caribbean did not generate any likely candidates. Still, thanks for your efforts. Best, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, I checked the National Maritime Museum Database re Swaggerer, and it gave the privateer's name as Napoleon, not Bonaparte, and the year of capture as 1807, not 1808. I still couldn't find any capture of a Napoleon, but hope that this can help. And the theatre of concern is almost surely the Caribbean. I have also prepared an article on HMS Pert (1804), and would appreciate your checking the French sources. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 04:25, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

This could be a breakthrough, I have two possible candidates, both from Saint Domingue:

• Napoléon, a 5-gun schooner with 66 men, formerly the British prize British Domonica (? I suspect this is misspelt), captured on 2 January 1806 by HMS Malabar and Wolf (p.317, no 2708)
• Napoléon, ex-Minerve, captured either on 30 October 1806 by HMS Diligent, or on 8 February 1808 by Meleager (she would have been named Renard by then). Small ship on one 4-pounder with 47 men.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:03, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, I am afraid that neither works. Her crew mutinied and turned HMS Dominica (1805) over to the French, who named her Napoléon and put an ad hoc crew on board, but the RN recaptured her five days later and took her back into service under her existing name. As for Swaggerer, she was a brig of c.300 tons (bm), and 16 guns, so she is too big to be the second Napoléon. Thanks for trying. I suspect that this puzzle, like Modeste, may never be solved, and if it is, it will be purely by accident while we are looking for something completely different. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:08, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I have checked everything named Napoléon, but nothing seems to match the dates and size. I had seen privateers from Saint-Malo operating in the Carribean, so it might have been a long yet lucky shot, but it seems it was not to be. Cheers! Rama (talk) 10:49, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Paris

Cher Rama, Je suis désolée. J'espere que vous and votres sont sauf et sain. Avec amitié, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:42, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Merci beaucoup, je suis très touché.

Fortunately nobody I know was involved in this sorry situation. In these days of stupefaction, I think of the people of the world who are unfortunate enough to be accustomed to such events, not only out of compassion but because their quality of life is the key to these issues.

Anyway, now as ever, fluctuat nec mergitur. Thank you for your kind toughts and cheers! Rama (talk) 13:49, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Two Demerliac requests

Hi Rama, fluctuat nec mergitur indeed; Paris survived the Nazis, it will survive this, Deo volente. In the meantime, if you have the time, could you please check first on the Bonaparte that became HMS Pert (1804). Second, what does Demerliac have on the French privateer Phoenix that HMS Aigle captured on 12 September 1810? There is some possibility that she became the whaler Phoenix (1809 ship). The letter in the London Gazette describing her capture refers to her as being of 220 tons burthen (French), whereas the whaler was of 348 tons burthen (English). So the match is not quite right. However, the timing of the capture is perfect for her to become a British whaler in 1811. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 04:08, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

I am afraid that there is nothing of notice on Bonaparte. The closest matches have serious discrepancies in their dates.

I have tried to put everything I could find on Phénix, I hope this is the ship you wanted. I am sure this is ovious, but do the London Gazette and the records that refer to the whaler refer to the same measurement? If the measurement at capture is Light displacement while the whaler is measured by Loaded displacement, this would compound with the smaller Englis units and possible equipment added for whaling.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 14:37, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, too bad about Pert. As far as Phoenix is concerned, she doesn't seem to be the vessel Demerliac is describing. Here is the link to the London Gazette letter announcing her capture:[3] Her captor describes Phoenix as nearly new, which is more consistent with an 1809 launch year than 1807. Also, she is heavily armed (18x18-pounder guns), and pierced for 20, which is consistent with the vessel that became the whaler. The only discrepancy is the estimated 220 tons burthen. The whaler Phoenix is described in Lloyd's Register as 348 tons burthen. On balance, I suspect that Demerliac may have mistaken the 1807 Phoenix for the Phoenix that Aigle captured, and slightly mis-described. I am hoping that the French captain's name in the LG letter gives you some clue. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

That would be Jacques François Perroud, but we now have discrepancies in the dates as well. Phénix seems to have been one of these heavy corvettes that Bordeaux produced, I'll try and see if I can find a ship that looks like this. Cheers! Rama (talk) 06:41, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

So, double-checking, there is nothing better I can find in Demerliac. He seems to have conflated a cutter with Perroud's ship -- the fact that he does not mention Perroud as captain of the ship might be a clue that it is indeed a different ship, since Perroud was a privateer of a very high calibre and would not have gone unnoticed. Your description of his Phénix is reminiscent of ships like Confiance or indeed of Perroud's own Bellone, a fitting type of ship for such a captain. I am rather surprised that she would not turn up, but I'll keep an eye open in case I find something in other sources. Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:55, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I am going to work on the assumption that Demerliac missed one. As you say, Perroud was a notable privateer and that is consistent with the description of Phoenix. If it wasn't for frustration we wouldn't have any fun at all. Many thanks for your efforts. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:33, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Two new requests

Hi Rama, one may be doable, but the second is almost surely impossible.

• In early 1810 HMS Phoenix captured a privateer named Charles. This is not the Semillante/Charles that gave us so much trouble, but another one. Do we know anything about it?
• Between 1797 and sometime in 1802-3, the French had possession of the merchantman Boyd (1783 ship). Do we have any information from the French side on this? She was a simple, though large, merchantman, not a privateer or letter of marque before capture. I don't know what name she had in French service, or who captured her. If nothing shows up using "Boyd" as a keyword, please just drop the whole matter. It would be nice to know more, but she is not the sort of vessel that would have left much of a footprint in French sources.

Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:17, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

as you feared, I am afraid that I did not find anything on Boyd (though I did find a brig name Boyne that was used as a school ship, but I very much doubt there is a connection).

On the other hand, Charles seems to have been a privateer from Bordeaux, mentioned from December 1808, that cruised under Captain Plassiard with 90 men and 14 guns (Demerliac p.288 no 2305). Plassiard is mentioned in Gallois' Les Corsaires français sous la République, but without any specific detail.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 21:38, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Thanks for trying on Boyd; the probability of your finding anything was epsilon, arbitrarily close to zero. I put the Charles info in the Phoenix article. Too bad about Bonaparte/Pert; at least we now have a little confirmation of her existence and history. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:37, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

By the way, thanks for the Plassiard clue. It enabled me to add a sentence or two to the description of Charles in the Phoenix article. Acad Ronin (talk)

Different problem

Hi Rama, in the article on the Battle of Jean-Rabel, and several related articles, the French frigate Hermione (17xx) is part of the story. James, in his history, points out that British dispatches, including the letter in the LG, call her Harmonie. There is a WP stub for a French frigate Harmonie (1796), but the date is certainly in error, and I still have questions as to the correct name, Hermione, or Harmonie? In the article I just did on HMS Janus (1796) I call her Hermione, but I would like to change all the mentions to the correct name and launch date. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 15:28, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

I think that this is indeed the one you want, and her name was in fact Harmonie (not Hermione). Both Roche and Demerliac are agreed on this, and there are traces of her in Troude and in the "Fonds Marine". I'll put all the details and references there. Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:08, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Excellent. I have corrected the article on Janus. Many thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:24, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Splendid. The article on Harmonie has wet my appetite for this Captain Barney: he apparently made it to rear-admiral and became a shipowner investing in privating, including somewhat notable ships, yet I have not managed to find his first name or further biographical data. Hopefully we will find a clue at some point. Cheers and good continuation! Rama (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I think we have him. He may have been the American Joshua Barney. Between 1796 and 1802 Joshua Barney served as a captain in the French Navy. See: [4], footnote on p.326. He returned to the US and eventually rose to the rank of Admiral there. What is particularly interesting is that he would have been serving France during the Quasi-War. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 21:14, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I have added a little to the Joshua Barney page and to French frigate Harmonie (1796). If you can add anything more from French sources that would be great. Acad Ronin (talk) 21:31, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Fascinating, I'll have to skim through Napoleons British visitors and captives 1801-1815. I was wondering why Lieutenant Billiette had taken command of Harmonie, this might be an element of explanation. Apparently, Barney settled in Dunkirk and commissioned the privater Vengeance, which seems to have been rather successful under Léveillé, a half a dozen merchantmen over 400 tons, and a number of lesser ships. Rama (talk) 21:40, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Once again: "The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there." Acad Ronin (talk) 23:08, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

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