User talk:Mahagaja/Archive 64

Category:Turkish emigrants to the Netherland

Hi Angr, I don't seem to have the right access to be able to move a category. Can you correct the title of Category:Turkish emigrants to the Netherland - obviously that should be Netherlands. --Doric Loon (talk) 10:39, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Categories can't just be moved like pages. You have to create the new category and delete the old one. It's a pain in the ass if there are already lots of pages in the old category, but since there's only one page in this one, it's easy enough. Angr (talk) 11:27, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

In this case, Category:Turkish emigrants to the Netherlands already existed, so it was just a matter of correcting the one article using the wrong name and then deleting the misnamed category. Angr (talk) 11:29, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

latin wiki

Salve Angr, ut vales? I just would like to encourage you to be more active (again) at the Latin wiki. I think people there are more accomodating and agreeable now. Although my own latin still needs a lot of improvement. That is all.--Jondel (talk) 00:42, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't leave because of unaccommodating and/or disagreeable people, but just because my interest in Latin composition wore off after a while. If it returns, I'll go back to editing there. Angr (talk) 09:45, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

First Edit Day 2012

Happy First Edit Day, Mahagaja, from the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day!

IanMurrayWeb (talk) 02:20, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Chief Mouser

Oops. Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 10:03, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

No problem! Some vandalism always slips through the cracks when an article appears on the main page. Meow! Angr (talk) 10:06, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

WP Linguistics in the Signpost

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Flower power

• Flower punctuation mark (AfD discussion)

Enjoy. Uncle G (talk) 21:43, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

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Huh?

I am confused by this edit. You do not regard it as ironic that a character that the Swiss consciously chose to not use is included in only one Microsoft font--one named for what is arguably the most famous city in Switzerland? I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but what with passes for irony these days, it's hard to find a good example, and this--I thought--was one such. 50.193.171.69 (talk) 12:53, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Whether it's ironic or not is a matter of personal opinion; expressing that opinion is not encyclopedic. Angr (talk) 19:48, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of List of papabili in the 2013 papal conclave for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of papabili in the 2013 papal conclave is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of papabili in the 2013 papal conclave until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Vandalism

STOP VANDALIZING THE ENTRY ON THE NAOCC....it is not helping — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.210.66 (talk) 20:33, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not vandalizing the article. Your tags are utterly useless. There's no point in putting a {{verify credibility}} tag on a {{citation needed}} tag, or on a ==References== header, or on the official website of the body the article is about. Also, you have to add a source for the claims your making about Seneco resigning. Angr (talk) 20:37, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

STOP VANDALIZING THE ENTRY ON THE NAOCC .... I HAVE REPORTED YOU — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.210.66 (talk) 20:48, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

North American Old Catholic Church

Hi Angr. I fixed the issues at North American Old Catholic Church. -- Jreferee (talk) 23:22, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you!! Angr (talk) 06:21, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Your input is requested

Greetings, Angr! If we have not met, I'm AutomaticStrikeout. I've come here to ask you to take part in the survey at User:AutomaticStrikeout/Are admins interested in a RfB?. I am trying to gauge the general level of interest that administrators have in running for cratship, as well as pinpoint the factors that affect that interest level. Your input will be appreciated. Happy editing, AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • Sign AAPT) 02:11, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Re. "Simultaneous alveolo-palatal and dento-alveolo-palatal"

This is from the article:

The nasal stop [ɲ] may be just alveolopalatal (Greek, Hakka Chinese, Ibibio, Rhaeto-Romance, Zulu). Another common scenario occurs whenever the nasal stop shares the alveolopalatal closure location with a more anterior one occurring at the dentoalveolar zone (Italian, Occitan, Spanish), the alveolar zone (Czech, Hungarian, Italian, Occitan, Spanish) or the dento–alveolopalatal zone (Arrernte, Irish, Italian, Occitan, Portuguese, Spanish).

Studies for Irish he cites are Rousselot 1899a, 1924—1925; Farnetani et al. 1991. — Lfdder (talk) 17:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Farnetani, Edda, Andrea Provaglio, Ailbhe Ní Chasaide, Geraldine Fealey, Daniel Recasens, Jord Fontdevila & Maria Dolors Pallares. 1991. A study of the production and coarticulatory characteristics of palatal and palatalized consonants. Project ACCOR (ESPRIT II/BRA) Periodic Progress Report 2, Padova, Dublin & Barcelona.

Also here p. 276. — Lfdder (talk) 17:31, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, it sounds like he's describing the Irish alveopalatal nasal /n̠ʲ/ rather than the palatal nasal /ɲ/; I've already added a mention of /n̠ʲ/ at postalveolar nasal. Angr (talk) 19:20, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

He's not, theres even palatograms on that page distinguishing the 3. — Lfdder (talk) 20:35, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, every other phonetic description of Irish I've read says /ɲ/ is pure palatal or palatovelar/prevelar; no one else has ever described it as alveopalatal. I don't see how it could be while still being distinct from /n̠ʲ/, although maybe he's only looking at dialects that don't have /n̠ʲ/. Does he give any example words with the sound? It's possible he's using the symbol /ɲ/ to mean a different phoneme than the one I mean. The one I mean is also sometimes transcribed /ŋʲ/. Angr (talk) 21:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know any more than there's in these 2 papers. Are there any other phonetic studies of Irish palatals? — Lfdder (talk) 21:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know much beyond what's listed at Irish phonology#References. Sutton (1993) is, despite the title, about palatalized consonants in general rather than just palatal ones. There are a lot of phonetic descriptions of individual dialects published by the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies. I don't know of any other works focusing specifically on palatals, but I'm more a phonologist than a phonetician. Angr (talk) 22:12, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

I've put it back but dispute tagged it. If you can't find claims to the contrary, I think we should probably remove the tag. — Lfdder (talk) 10:57, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources that say the sound usually spelled ng adjacent to i or e—which is the sound transcribed /ɲ/ at Irish phonology and at Help:IPA for Irish—is palatal/palato-velar/prevelar. If Recansens says that Irish /ɲ/ has any sort of alveolar or dental articulation going on, then most likely the sound he's describing is the sound usually spelled nn adjacent to i or e or word-initially plain n adjacent to i or e—which is the sound transcribed /n̠ʲ/ at Irish phonology and Help:IPA for Irish, and which is in the table at postalveolar nasal. In other words, he's using the symbol /ɲ/ to stand for a different phoneme than we are. But if he doesn't give any example words, or say what other nasal phonemes Irish has besides his "/ɲ/" and /nʲ/, then I can't be 100% certain that that's the case. Part of the problem is that different Irish dialects have a different number of coronal nasal phonemes—some have two, some have three, and some have four—so if Recansens doesn't say which dialect he's looking at or how many total coronal nasal phonemes it has, I can't even use the process of elimination to figure out what he means by "/ɲ/". Angr (talk) 15:24, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Right, I see what the confusion is. My guess is that he's talking about /n̠ʲ/, which would mean /n/ is dentoalveolar, /nʲ/ postalveolar, /n̠ʲ/ alveolo-palatal (and /ɲ/ probably pre-velar) for his speaker. — Lfdder (talk) 16:12, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

That sounds about right. His /n/ is our /n̪ˠ/; /nʲ/ is (slightly post-)alveolar and palatalized and apical, /n̠ʲ/ is alveopalatal and laminal, and /ɲ/ is palatal/prevelar. In addition, some dialects have /nˠ/ (velarized alveolar, contrasting with the velarized dental), and some dialects have merged /nˠ/ and /nʲ/ to a simple alveolar /n/ that is neither palatalized nor velarized. (And to top it off, all dialects have /mˠ/, /mʲ/ and /ŋ/ in addition to all the coronal and prevelar nasals.) Angr (talk) 16:55, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm kinda thankful I don't have to learn Irish right now. Maybe we should have both /ɲ/ and /n̠ʲ/ at palatal nasal? — Lfdder (talk) 17:06, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Maybe, since palatal nasal is the article where alveopalatals are discussed, though since they're separate phonemes it's kind of nice keeping them in separate articles. Maybe we could move discussion of all alveopalatal nasals in general to postalveolar nasal; certainly the transcription /n̠ʲ/ makes it seem like a variant of /n̠/ rather than a variant of /ɲ/. Angr (talk) 17:11, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, it's hard to tell if a language has a laminal postalveolar or alveolopalatal w/out EPG, so linguists often tend to (or used to) blow these off as "palatal", e.g. with "palatals" in Romance languages that turned out to be alveolopalatals. Phonetic studies that look into these sounds are few and far between; there's still many languages that are said to have a palatal nasal but nobody's yet checked that they really are palatal. Makes more sense to keep them all there I think. Maybe we should see what other people think at Wt Ling. — Lfdder (talk) 17:43, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. Angr (talk) 17:54, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

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Unprotecting a page

Hi, wondering if you could unprotect Cypriot Greek. POV pusher who kept removing bits about diglossia and Turkish loans has been long blocked. Person who protected the page is no longer admin and you seem to be active in ling/langs, so I thought I'd ask. — Lfdder (talk) 20:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Done. Angr (talk) 21:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. — Lfdder (talk) 21:18, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Old Irish

Thanks for the barnstar! Benwing (talk) 00:05, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the edits! Angr (talk) 15:32, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Love history & culture? Get involved in WikiProject World Digital Library!

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Cathal

Could you check if the pronunciations there are correct? Cheers. — Lfdder (talk) 11:19, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

• Looks fine to me. Angr (talk) 11:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2013-06-05/News and notes: WikiLang: a new WMF project?

• There's a discussion of WikiProject Endangered languages (and closely related initiatives) going on over at Wikipedia Signpost News and Notes. • Serviceable†Villain 02:50, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Restoration

I've been cleaning up some image files and I came across this one that had been deleted:

• File:Airport Road.jpg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Coule you please restore it? I think the licensing would have looked like this one:

• File:CebuPacific.jpg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Thanks. --evrik ^(talk) 18:20, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't trust the uploader's claim that Airport_Road.jpg was "taken using my Sony Ericsson K700i mobile phone". It looks for all the world like a scan of an old postcard. Angr (talk) 18:34, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

None of this editors pictures are really good ... [1] or commons:Category:Files_by_User:Sixtango4. Can you restore it long enough that I can look at it? --evrik ^(talk) 18:38, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

No need; it's identical to File:Airport Parking Area.jpg. I don't believe any mobile phone could come up with colors like that. Angr (talk) 19:10, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Butting in here, but FWIW, this image was shot from nearly the same location as File:Airport Parking Area.jpg, judging by the background. Nearly the same time of day, and similar colors. File:CebuPacific.jpg and File:Airphilippines.jpg were also from very close by, but perhaps on a different day, with the further mountain obscured by clouds. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:20, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

File:Angr Porson comparison.png missing description details

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message

Do you pronounce /ˈmɛseɪdʒ/ for the word message ? 198.105.116.142 (talk) 21:02, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

It should be clear from my answer on the Reference Desk that I don't. Angr (talk) 10:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

If someone doesn't know to pronounce this word, he will pronounce /ˈmɛseɪdʒ/. 198.105.116.142 (talk) 11:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

No, this is just a common mistake L2 speakers make, fooled by the pronunciation of age. — Lfdder (talk) 11:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I've added the pronunciation to wikt:message, so if any nonnative speakers are uncertain how to pronounce it, they can look there. Angr (talk) 13:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Activated debates

Hi Angr. I invite you to feedback on my views in Talk:List of names in English with counterintuitive pronunciations, I'm encouraging all involved since January to do so. Adam37 (talk) 10:34, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

forest

Can the word forest pronounce /ˈfɒrɪst/ or /ˈfɒrɛst/ ? 198.105.116.3 (talk) 22:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

If you want to know how words are pronounced, please look them up in a dictionary. Wiktionary is a good place to start (see wikt:forest). Angr (talk) 11:50, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

But this lady pronounce [ˈfɔɹɛst]. 198.105.116.3 (talk) 12:54, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

That's actually an interesting question. I answered on your talk page. — kwami (talk) 17:35, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

I appreciate your swift and illuminating remarks on my Lanquage RD query just now. I suspected something of the sort - in Hebrew we have the "construct form" for adjoining nouns, where the F. sing. and M. pl. take a special suffix (partly resembling their respective plural suffixes), but the M. sing and F. pl. remain unchanged. I'm not about to belabor this (the NL) with the Usual Suspect on teh [sic/stet] staff, but it does matter to me in WP. And the kitten? Surely you can't deny they're adorably photogenic, and easier to ignore than the live ones. (Ask me how I know...) -- Cheers,

Deborahjay (talk) 13:21, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Irish phonetic respelling

Do we have an analogue to Pronunciation_respelling_for_English for Irish? -- Evertype·✆ 09:20, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not aware of one myself. It would certainly be useful, but would probably require a greater familiarity with Irish than we could expect from our readers. It would be interesting to see if we could come up with something. — kwami (talk) 17:28, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Do we have pronunciation respellings for any language other than English? What we do have is Help:IPA for Irish#Comparison to other phonetic transcription schemes, where the IPA is compared to the systems familiar from Irish pedagogical works and phonological descriptions. If there's a demand for it, we could adapt a system like Foclóir Póca's to use in addition to the IPA for Irish pronunciations. Angr (talk) 20:43, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I was under the impression we were doing away with respell in favour of IPA for English. — Lfdder (talk) 20:54, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't. I was under the impression we were catering to both the pro-IPA and the anti-IPA faction by allowing both. Angr (talk) 20:59, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Well then, I was under the wrong impression. — Lfdder (talk) 21:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Foclóir Póca's convention is more or less pseudo-IPA though, no? Certainly our precise writing of clóicín draíochta 'magic cloak' as [ˈkˠlˠoːkʲiːnʲ ˈd̪ˠrˠiəxˠtˠə] has much merit, but even though I rather dislike non-IPA transcription, but still, it seems clear that <klō′kīn drī'əkhtə> could be helpful to many users. Or not. What you you think? -- Evertype·✆ 11:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I dunno. As I mentioned above, we don't have respelling schemes for any language other than English, and having one for Irish that's geared toward English-speakers would necessarily mean losing some information. In your example, for instance, there's no way of telling that the consonant before the ī in the first word is slender while the consonants before the ī in the second word are broad. Maybe that doesn't matter to most English speakers who are just trying to get it to sound close enough, but it would niggle at me. I think probably the best way to help those who don't read IPA is to include sound files. Angr (talk) 15:02, 30 June 2013 (UTC)