User talk:K. Lastochka/Archive 5

User talk:K. Lastochka/Archive 5

Some of my trusted colleagues.

Blank page, blank page!

/me jumps onto it.

Oh, and you're not technologically inept. You know WikiMarkup, don't you? That's gotta count for something. Will ^(talk) 23:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I too have signed emails with "'~~~~" before. Will ^(talk) 23:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Me too. Bloody embarrassing, isn't it? K. Lásztocska ^{Review me?} 00:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It's funny if you're emailing Wikipedians, though. Will ^(talk) 00:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

True, but I don't use wikimail. When I'm emailing my friends, it just gets a lot of quizzically furrowed brows. K. Lásztocska ^{Review me?} 00:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I've never had the shame of doing that to non-wikipedians through email, though. Hooray for Google Talk and Windows Live Messenger. Will ^(talk) 01:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I used to sign e-mails (to Wikipedias) with ~s on purpose. I should do it more. :) — $PЯINGεrαgђ 01:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Liszt

Hi K. Lastochka. When you removed the flags from Franz Liszt, you cited Wikipedia:Don't overuse flags. Remember that this is not an official policy document, but an essay. Cheers. --Himasaram 08:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

To Admin?

Don't give my opinion too much weight - you can always pick up the mop and put it back down again when it suits you. Point taken also that heightened sensitivity befits a musician - I'll take that remark down an octave. Just you make sure you want being an Admin for yourself, and don't infer undue status from the title - it seems there is a bit of drudge work involved. Also, it seems we did indeed coin a phrase [1] vs.[2] The Wiki is going to be here for awhile, steadily growing in importance. Stick around, don't blow yourself up, the best is yet to come. István 15:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Thalberg again

The biographical part of the article has now reached the level of a beta 0.85 version. It gives more information and is more reliable than the Thalberg articles in the "New Musical Grove" and the new "Musik in Geschichte und Gegenwart", both of which are worldwide regarded as top sources. The chapter "Thalberg as composer" still needs some elaboration, but this can be done in a later step. At moment I'd appreciate if our collaboration would begin. So, please, have a look at the article and let us talk about it. (From my opinion, you should better not run for that admin job, and this mainly because there might be too much of fruitless labour to it.)80.144.132.150 13:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Just to avoid any misunderstandings like in the past, please tell me exactly what you would like my help with. I'm happy to help, I just need to know what to do. K. Lásztocska ^{Review me?} 15:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

PS and if you have any further comments, compliments or criticisms about my work here you are welcome to put them on my editor review (not my talk page, please.) K. Lásztocska ^{Review me?} 15:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

There are several things you can to. At first, the images from the Italian page must be uploaded in order to use them. (see the Thalberg talk page) At second, I need some comments about the article. There is a difference between an article which is actually featured and a "featured" one. The second depends on opinions which I cannot know without abilities of clairvoyance. At third, there might be some further things you want to add or change. So, please, tell me what it is. (Concerning your remark from 15:53, 2 August 2007, I may add, please look above on your page and see what other people did.)80.144.159.23 10:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I will get started on that as soon as I can. Regarding your comment "please look above and see what other people did"--first of all that's not "other people", that's István, my best wiki-friend and most trusted colleague. Also, his message on this page was in response to a message I left him, which was itself a response to the very thoughtful and detailed message he posted...on my editor review. (And in any event, I'm willing to cut him a bit more slack than I afford to certain others.) K. Lásztocska ^{Review me?} 16:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Romani

...could you perhaps be so kind as to point me in the direction of a good website that might list some such useful phrases? My goodness, I would have loved to do that...if only I knew of such a website! I don't know of such a website for Malayalam (except maybe mine :-D), let alone a really lesser-studied language like Romani.

I myself have learned some Romani in bits and pieces, here and there. First I used this (which isn't a particularly good site, but it was the best I could find at the time!), then I learned a bit more from Prof. Ian Hancock's book We Are the Romani People, then I took his Romani Studies course and learned even more (especially after he translated a few stories word-by-word with grammar-related details), and now I learn even more from talking with Desiphral! (And RomanyChaj)

I'm really interested in learning languages, too (as perhaps you could tell from looking at my user page). Though I can't (yet) recommend any good websites for learning Romani, I do know of two (good?) books: one is Prof. Hancock's Handbook of Vlax Romani (which apparently you can buy on Amazon.com, though I still haven't done this myself!), and the other is one that I found in PCL called Learn Romani - Das-dùma rromanes, which (like Prof. Hancock and his works on the language) focuses on the Kalderash Vlax dialect. (The Kalderash dialect is basically the most widely understood, and this is what I use when speaking Romani even to e.g. a Russian Romani like RomanyChaj!). --Kuaichik 04:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I almost forgot! I think I'll give you a few words that I use very often with Romani users:

Te aves baxtalo = lit. "May you (be)come lucky." A Romani greeting, often abbreviated (in speech) to "t'as baxtalo"

Phral = brother (vocative "(oh) brother!" = phràla, with stress on first syllable. Phrala, with stress on last syllable, means "brothers")

(The Romani word for "sister" is phen, pronounced just like the English word "pen").

Najis tuke (but) = Thank you (very much)

Of course, three phrases is very little. Just let me know if you'd like me to send you some more (if you do, I think I will when I can), or if you'd like me to help with anything else Romani-related (I'll try!!) :) --Kuaichik 04:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Székelyek

Dear KL,

I miss you and all of enwiki too, but Ancient Egypt and real life keeps me busy... I tried to look up the etymology of the name Székely, but every source says it's origin is unknown. There are some wild guesses but those don't seem to be very encyclopaedic... – Alensha ^talk 15:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Naj soske?

BTW, you do realize that naj soske means "you're welcome; don't mention it." Right? :-? Just making sure, in case I explained the meaning in a misleading way. --Kuaichik 06:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

LOL, interestingly, I didn't learn that expression myself until this. (The Devanagari terms read, in order: Bahut dhanyavaad/shukriyaa (which is the Hindi equivalent of) Najis tuke but ("Thank you very much"), ?But najis tuke, naj soske). :)

I used to go to sleep at 3:00, too. (Sometimes I still do...) But now I don't do that. Oh, no, I go to sleep at 1:00 instead! :-P (Actually, that's just because I'm not back in "school" yet). --Kuaichik 04:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

I appreciate the welcome back, Captain. I suppose I'll still run, but will make no commitments just now. Yes, I'm aware of his troubles; good thing I was away during the crisis, because now I'm sort of in the catbird seat, at least had not my "threat" been dredged up from the seabed -- and I commend you for explaining the motivation behind that during my absence. Good luck with Thalberg -- it looks very long, for starters, and we need more long articles (assuming they're of high quality, which it seems to be).

I've been meaning to tell you: remember that the Armenian Orthodox Church (more properly the Armenian Apostolic Church) is not part of the main body of Orthodox churches and has not been since the 6th century. But, rather confusingly, the Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church is.

By the way, a nice illustration of the deficiencies with en.wiki emerges from these three articles -- we're very ready to add in a pointless trivia section, and a flag (which does absolutely nothing for the article and, for all I know, assumes illiterate people as an audience), but the text is a mess (an odd mixture of 1911 and recent additions). The German version can do without both; the French, to its discredit, does have a flag, but it's so much longer and more comprehensive that I can forgive that. Biruitorul 15:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Ian Hancock

Yes, former President Clinton is partially of Romani ancestry, according to Prof. Hancock. I have included the source (and removed the "Sources" subsection, since this source was the only one there!), and you can also find the specific quote from Prof. Hancock's book on the talk page.

You might be surprised how many celebrities are (or seem to be) of Romani ancestry. Charlie Chaplin and Bob Hoskins, for instance. (Charlie Chaplin is mentioned in the same book, just before "William Clinton"; Bob Hoskins is mentioned on the next page.) --Kuaichik 01:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have found here on Wikipedia that opinions on the word "gypsy" (and "gipsy," "Gypsy," etc.) vary, not only outside of but also within the Romani community. The way I think of it is: still, you can't go wrong with "Romani." No one is offended by that word. (In Romania, "gypsy" may be offensive as it is used as a direct translation of ṭigan, which was specifically used to mean "(Romani) slave" while Romanies were still enslaved in Romania). --Kuaichik 01:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's best never to say it around any Romanies, unless they specifically say that they think it's OK. But I think when speaking to ignorant(!) gadže (non-Romanies), you really have no other choice but "Gypsy" :-P --Kuaichik 03:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No. It's becoming popular (according to Desiphral at least), but typically it's written using the Roman alphabet (various spelling systems or transliteration schemes). Sometimes Cyrillic is used, too.

Romani doesn't have its own script, since most Romanies are illiterate. --Kuaichik 04:49, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the situation is improving, though it's a slow process. More Romanies can read now; those who can read Romani in any script can read at least one other language as well.

Also, though most Romanies have the disadvantage of illiteracy, they also have a rare and valuable advantage: being bilingual or otherwise multilingual. Take Desiphral, for instance. He speaks not only Romani, but also Romanian, English, Spanish, some French, doubtlessly a bit of Hindi (possibly more than that). Perhaps German as well and (*maybe*) Marathi and Nepali.

Yes, Vlax is the same word as "Vlach." The "Vlax Romani" dialect is the dialect spoken by Romanian (esp. Wallachian) slaves and most (or many?) of their descendants. Among the many dialects of Romani, Vlax is the most widely spoken (and even more widely understood!).

You can find We Are the Romani People (Ame Sam e Rromane Džene) and A Handbook of Vlax Romani (which I don't have!) on Amazon.com. I'll send you a link. But not tonight, I think I should get some sleep first!! Good night! :) --Kuaichik 05:41, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Here you may find We Are the Romani People (Ame Sam e Rromane Džene); here, Prof. Hancock's Handbook of Vlax Romani; and finally (wonder of wonders, I just found it on Amazon!!), Ronald Lee's Learn Romani (Das-duma Rromanes)!

I haven't spoken Russian in years, and I know practically no Hungarian (or Czech for that matter)!! But feel free to "pick my brains" further; only a year ago, I used to be at least as curious as you are now. --Kuaichik 22:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, considering that I have never knowingly even seen a Romani other than Prof. Hancock in person, I myself have a loooong way to go. :-P --Kuaichik 22:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

See the last paragraph on this part of my user page. Actually, I think I'm getting rusty on nearly all of 'em, but I'm trying not to!! :) --Kuaichik 22:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The scholar

It appears that the old scholar has come back. I am hoping that speaking his language (English with German grammar) will get thru to him this time. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  19:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Note: Could you try not to be as sarcastic around him? It's not helping us. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  00:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand, and I am (and was) very sorry to see you insulted so. In situations like this any person can expect my full sympathy and support. But our chances of that not happening again won't be helped if you respond in like manner, OK? :) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  01:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a shame we can't block IPs for extended periods of times... still, you know what they say about people who complain... they're always wrong ;) Will ^(talk) 01:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand, and I am sorry if I went a little overboard a little too soon with it. Perhaps I should have been more firm with him earlier today. As for stripping the articles down and re-building them—go for it if you want to (just do them in a sandbox and not the mainspace); I'll help you with anything that needs helping. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  02:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: Arrow Cross

Don't worry, no one takes those guys seriously. Belonging to the far right will be out of fashion in Europe for the next 1000 years, I think. :) – Alensha ^talk 19:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, (if no one minds me commenting here,) I think the far right always becomes most popular at times of poverty, when a country is ruined and people are looking for a scapegoat. The higher the number of people who are angry at what some left-wingers have done (or tempted by a right-winger), the higher the amount of support for the far right. I don't see that happening in Hungary.

Will it be "in" or "out of fashion"? To me, that's a hard question. In my opinion, it depends on the economy and people's whims. --Kuaichik 05:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course I don't mind you "butting in"! You're definitely right about the far-right being most popular during extremely difficult times (See: Germany, 1933.) This latest Hungarian mini-wave of loud fascists bellowing about everything at the tops of their lungs started almost a year ago when the (ex-Communist) prime minister generally made a complete jackass of himself in front of the entire country...basically showed an outrageous level of disrespect to both the Hungarian people and the essence of democratic government which must be based on TRUST between the populace and the elected leader...well anyway, it snowballed from there. A lot of people are still pissed off at Gyurcsany and upset with the whole current dysfunctional gov't, which the fascist types of course try to use to their advantage. Like Alensha said though, hardly anybody takes them seriously. Although, if Gyurcsi would just resign, he'd placate the ordinary folk AND take the wind out of the far-right's sails....best damn thing he could do for Hungary at this point actually... :) Enough politics talk, it's almost 12:30 here and I'm going to bed...I'll be more productive onwiki later in the week, I swear... :) K. Lásztocska ^{Review me?} 05:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

So there was an audio recording in which he said he lied. So what? All politicians lie. This is the way I personally see it. Perhaps that's a cynical view, but I just don't think of politicians as people who are always honest, even about simple things (their political views, their policies, etc.).

In fact, I think it's impossible. No one can please everybody, but a politician has to make sure not to offend anybody who could possibly gain significant support (assuming, of course, that "he" wants to stay in power).

"Trust"? Really? I'm reminded of an old Malayalam cartoon in which a boy says to his father, "Dad, I want to learn business." His father tells him to climb on the roof and then jump off. "But what if I fall down?" the boy asks. "Don't worry, I'll catch you," his father responds, holding his hands out. But when the boy jumps off, his father pulls his hands away, saying: "This is the first lesson of business - never trust anybody!"

But, whatever... :-P --Kuaichik 01:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, of course you do have a point...I'm not so naively idealistic that I think there are politicians that never lie, but Gyurcsany handled the situation particularly badly, in my opinion. First of all, it's not as if he went and admitted his mistakes in a public address to the nation, everyone found out about it by a leaked (presumably confidential) tape in which he was addressing his party cronies at a resort at Lake Balaton. Second of all, while I don't remember the exact words he used, I do remember that throughout the leaked speech, he repeatedly spoke of the Hungarian people and Hungary in general with dismissive, insulting language--I remember "kurva ország" ...so maybe it is naively idealistic to expect that your elected leaders won't brazenly lie to you and then insult you behind your back, but I personally think the president/prime minister of any democratic country should at least have the respect for his people to generally be honest. I'm not talking about the little diplomatic white lies that oil the wheels of public life, I'm talking about outright bald-faced lies about the state of the economy and other vital issues.

And yes, I DO believe that a truly democratic system must be rooted in trust between the people and the leaders they elect. (Look what's happened in the United States since Watergate.) Your Malayalam cartoon is pretty funny--and true for what it describes--but government is not (or rather SHOULD not be) "business." To lead a country is a public service. In other words, JFK's wonderful dictum "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" should apply to politicians and leaders as well as average everyday folk.

So no, Gyurcsany isn't evil, and he could certainly be worse--but he could be a hell of a lot better, and I personally find him very irritating. Also, I'm not convinced that this economic "package" of his will work all that well...but the point anyway is that whatever his strengths and weaknesses, a lot of Hungarians are pretty upset with him, and the far-right loons are using it as an opportunity to bellow ever louder in the hopes of tapping into public discontent and winning some converts. Thankfully though, the louder they yell the stupider they sound. :) K. Lásztocska 01:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so you're talking about lies manufactured to cover up the failure of the government, as opposed to the usual diplomatic lies? In that case, I agree. And indeed, even if you are not leading a democracy, how can you lead a country whose people you do not respect without being toppled sooner or later? It would be like allegedly ordering Indian sepoys to use tallow and lard to grease cartridges all over again! --Kuaichik 04:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's basically what I was getting at. Gyurcsany's lies were big ones, important ones, things that even politicians really shouldn't lie about. Basically, the very act of electing somebody to lead your country is a statement that "we entrust you with our country." Damn big responsibility--and yes, what people would want to be led by someone who would lie to their faces and then insult them to boot? ("kurva" is a rather foul word meaning, essentially, "whore"--that's what he called Hungary!) And I have to admit, as dismayed as I was by the direction the Hungarian protests quickly took, when the scandal first erupted last September I was rather proud of the Budapesters: the Hungarians won't stand for being lied to and disrespected by their leader! The PM betrayed our trust? Into the streets!! Of course the fun immediately vanished as things got ugly (the aforementioned far-righters quickly hijacked the whole thing and it turned into mass chaos) but I have to admit even now I nurse a sneaking sliver of pride that at a time when, for example, the Americans are quietly giving a pretty damn free pass to much bigger lies and outrages, the Hungarians would settle for no less than being treated the way citizens of a free democracy should be treated. (it's our long history of being someone else's punching bag--we value freedom quite highly...)

Ugh. Wanna know another Hungarian cultural tradition? Holding extremely strong opinions, even when one has absolutely no idea what the f*ck one is talking about. Put two Hungarians together and you get five opinions, or something like that...to heck with all my other ethnic ancestries, I'm afraid you're dealing with a pure Magyar here. :P K. Lásztocska 04:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I know, really! It was annoying for me to be one of the very few who opposed the Iraq War from the time it was even proposed.

Hungarians at least protest for a reason. Malayalees protest for no reason at all! They (I would say "we," but I've never actually seen these protests, much less taken part in them) normally used to do so by calling it a bandh, but when bandhs were banned in Kerala, they called it hartal instead! :-D

They would protest about, say, Saddam Hussein being executed. So because the leader of Iraq is to be executed, somehow this means all roads in Kerala should be blocked off! :-D

I'm enjoying this "new tradition," too. As for the edit summary: that was a strange mistake to make in the first place, though maybe it has to do with the fact that neither tallow nor lard is used in Indian cooking! --Kuaichik 05:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Eh, go ahead and say "we"--I use "we" all the time to refer to Hungarians, even though I have yet to actually visit my true homeland! I feel like I'm in exile or something....ughhh. I LOVE Indian food incidentally, or at least what passes for Indian over here. :-) K. Lásztocska 05:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"We," then. We Malayalees protest for no reason! Unfortunately, that scares businesses away from Kerala, resulting in a variety of problems :(

Malayalee food is decidedly different from "what passes for Indian," much in the same way that Greek food is different from "what passes for Italian" :-D For instace, for dinner I had rice, chicken curry, thoran, and sambar. I don't know whether you've had sambar before, and I very much doubt you've ever seen a thoran. (I wish the relevant Wikipedia pages were far more detailed than they are, but...I guess they'll have to do for now!)

Anyhow, our late-night discussions don't seem to last too long each night...I think I'd better go to sleep :-P --Kuaichik 05:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: Tchaikovsky's kopeks

I'd say pretty late-night—it was after I went to bed! :P

Thank you for your opinion; it will probably help us much. (Scholar talk?) Jonyungk and I could surely use it. :) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  15:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

We're good now—Antandrus is on the job :) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  04:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

My goodness, you're right!

That's right, I didn't notice the date myself. In fact, by Wikipedia time, it's going to be the 13th within, what, 4 hours? I wonder whether we can request extended protection, perhaps citing the "gay" (?) reference... --Kuaichik 21:30, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

No! Not 4 hours! 2 1/2!! :( --Kuaichik 21:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, well. I'll try dealing with it myself when I can manage to. I'm really sorry that the Romani people page must be in this situation. But I'm sure there must be other pages in which there are some similar problems. Anyway, I'm sure we can carry on nevertheless with actual constructive editing.

Yes, Wikipedia uses GMT. It calls it UTC, as you should be able to see after I sign this post.

Fifteen minutes...man your post... Which post are you talking about? :-P --Kuaichik 02:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh! LOL, at first I thought you were saying, "Man! Your post...!" referring to my post on the Romani people talk page or something :-D --Kuaichik 02:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Nope. Ugh, fifteen languages between the two of us and we have trouble communicating in English. Sigh...K. Lásztocska 04:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Fifteen? Don't you mean "fourteen"? Remember, I speak Russian, too. I don't know much Hungarian, that's all...not past some basic expressions. And my pronounciation's probably bad, too :-D

BTW, are szia and kösz abbv's of szervusz and köszönöm, respectively? Like "hi" and "thanks" (respectively!) in English? --Kuaichik 00:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Works of Sigismond Thalberg

is now a redirect to List of compositions by Sigismond Thalberg. I hope you don't mind me doing this; Tchaikovsky, Chopin, Dvořák, and others have it this way. :) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  23:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

OH. MY. GOSH. That was, seriously, the best laugh I've had in ages. I mean my sister came running I was laughing so hard. So congratulations. ;) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  03:52, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have the same problem, but it's not quite that bad. Although occasionally I will type one when I want to type the other. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  04:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

zomg nonmusic nonhungarian thread

Seeing as I can't pretend to know about those matters, I'm going on the assumption that you've got the better point because people are either IPs trying to make out you're a POV warrior or that they're trolls with the exact same agenda. Anyway, by my calculations, you should've reached the episode showcasing the marvellous talents of Professor Lazarus. How's the series been for you so far? (And did they show the Saxon trailer?) Will ^(talk) 00:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Eh, the wiki is indeed full of trolls, and in it there are many dark talkpages; but still there is much that cites sources, and though in all pages love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater. (Oh lord, I'm such a geek for quoting Haldir - but hey, it's my favourite quote). This chappy from my disputes springs to mind, to be honest.

On the subject of our very own favourite geeky Gallifreyan, while there's differing opinions on 42, the episodes after that are as awesome as you can get, plus a suitcase of awesome. AND CAPTAIN JACK IS BACK SOON ZOMG!!! (Apologies for the spoiler - though it shouldn't be if you watch Torchwood :P) Will ^(talk) 10:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't even remember who Captain Jack is, to be honest. :( Do we get any more visits to New Earth and the cat-people? I love them... K. Lásztocska 16:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Not planned, I don't think, what with Boe being dead. (Oh, and I do milk-teabag-water-sugar) Will ^(talk) 16:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, Earl Grey isn't drunk by anarchists because, you know, proper tea is theft :P Will ^(talk) 16:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

*GROAN*.... K. Lásztocska 17:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Eh, it's better than Dane Cook :P Will ^(talk) 18:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Creation of Yugoslavia

I have made extensive copy and organizational edits to Creation of Yugoslavia and imported material from Yugoslavia and Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Please take into consideration with regards to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Creation of Yugoslavia. Thanks. —  AjaxSmack  10:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

-GASP- a Hungarian composer article you haven't edited yet?

:P —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  20:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I heard, um, one of the movements on the radio several days ago (if The Record Shelf has an article, it was on there—well I guess also if it doesn't have an article it was still on there) but only about five minutes of it. I don't know which movement it was but I really liked it, and I hope it's popular enough to find a good recording of… —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  20:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

He may have been the violinist in the recording—I didn't hear the name, but it was certainly before 1960. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  23:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Magyar és romák (Wow, two new words!) :)

Hmm, interesting. This lesson from an online (free) course seems to claim that szervusz is informal while szia is extremely informal. Maybe because it was made in 1996 and is rarely updated? :-P

Actually, I know some other completely random expressions in Hungarian, too (as with any language I don't know very well!!). Hidegen fujnák a szelek (sp?), for example :-D Also az ískola én vagyok (sadder story behind that one, courtesy of Desiphral).

Anyway, at least the tag on the Romani people page stayed on for a little while. It was removed just before your post. Let's hope for the best and expect the worst! So far so good! :)

P.S. I liked the title of your last post on my talk page...heh, heh ;) --Kuaichik 03:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

P.P.S.- I'm writing this separately so you don't have to go back & burrow through your whole talk page :) --Kuaichik 03:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Oops. That should be fújnak, not *fujnák! I knew there was something wrong there! --Kuaichik 03:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Ehh, I knew it was something like that between "szervusz" and "szia"...I've just never heard somebody of my generation use "szervusz" with any kind of frequency.

OK, let's see..."hidegen fújnak a szélek" = "the cold winds are blowing"--sounds like a folk song I know. Az ískola én vagyok=I am the school? Must be an interesting story...

The most random thing you can say in any language is "my hovercraft is full of eels." If you know Monty Python, you'll understand...K. Lásztocska 14:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? I ... am no longer infected. Will ^(talk) 17:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and I am most definitely not dropping my panties! Will ^(talk) 17:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

So you don't want come back to my place, bouncy bouncy? You have wonderful thighs. K. Lásztocska 17:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

My nipples explode with delight! Will ^(talk) 18:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't make a fuss dear,

I'll have your spam. I love it. I'm having spam spam spam spam spam spam spam baked beans spam spam spam and spam! Will ^(talk) 20:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Damn typos. Will ^(talk) 20:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

How did a discussion on Hungarian and Roma turn into a series of Monty Python quotes?! The strangest things happen whenever I post on this particular talk page, ever since that "tallow-and-lard" edit summary of mine! I'm reciprocating by posting under this section :-D

Yes, of course I'm familiar with that Monty Python episode. And yes, those phrases were random! (*holding controversial phrasebook while searching for railway station*) Kisz máj ász? :-D

And indeed, I did mean the folk song Hidegen fújnak a szélek (which I listened to or tried to sing many times over the last 11 years). But dang, I screwed up the spelling of that song again?!? What is up with all these websites?

As I said before, there is a sadder story behind Az ískola én vagyok. Those were the words found on the wall of the room of a Romani girl named Gráncsa Szomna. She attended a Hungarian school since she lived in a Hungarian-majority part of Transylvania. There she did very well and won the admiration of her teachers. She wanted to advance in society and, in an effort to free herself from the "gypsy" stereotype, she rejected her heritage (refusing to speak with other Romanies or wear anything but Hungarian clothes, much to her parents' worry). Finally, torn between two worldviews, the 17-year-old committed suicide by hanging less than three months ago; that was when these words were found on her wall. Many Romanians (including the newspaper Cotidianul) used this as only another opportunity for "gypsy-bashing," saying that Szomna "hanged herself in order to escape from the gypsy life."

Anyway, I don't wish to end on a sad note like this. In fact, I want to say kösz for restoring semi-protection to Romani people. I look forward to seeing more constructive editing there, perhaps more interesting topics being discussed! --Kuaichik 04:52, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Ugh. That's a pleasant story to read first thing in the morning...you're welcome about the semi protection though. Sometimes I still do wish I was an admin (I could indefinitely semiprotect the page with one click!) but all in all it's probably not worth the trouble. K. Lásztocska 13:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

*sigh* It's not news if you can't apply spin to it... btw, on the subject of Anonimu, leave him to his own devices, and then he won't wonder why he gets an indef block... Will ^(talk) 16:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I know re: Mr. Anonymous. I was rather bored and grouchy this morning and just felt like needling him, to be perfectly honest. Waste of time, won't do it again. I must admit though, I'm left shaking my head in sheer amazement (and amusement) at the way he's dealing with his talk page now. On the one hand, it's so ridiculous it's funny, but on the other hand, it's a very clear statement of rejection of the wider wiki community and refusal to be held accountable for inappropriate behavior. He's deliberately declaring, in short, that he has no intention of abiding by our rules but still expects to reap the benefits of our little society here. It would be disturbing if he were more sinister. K. Lásztocska 22:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Great, now I've just had a vision of Anonimu as this guy twirling his moustache and saying "first I rule the wiki... then ze world! evil laugh". Thanks a lot *sulk*. Will ^(talk) 23:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Bwahahahahaha!!! K. Lásztocska 00:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's less crazy than the Lizstian zapper-hats :P Will ^(talk) 00:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

That's what I pictured!! Can you blame me for having a vivid imagination? (I'd let Liszt zap me any day btw...) ;-D K. Lásztocska 00:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Great. Now there's Liszt in the static-inducing PJs that Peter Griffin bought in that episode, going up to random Wikipedians (how he got here, I have no idea, possibly the TARDIS?) and touching them to give them electric shocks. Ah, but it's 1:30am and I'm getting silly. But nay, I shall stay online and read silly stuff to combat this! (somehow...) Will ^(talk) 00:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

That's not quite what I meant by "zap", but anyway.... :P jk OK, so there's Liszt, minding his own business some time in the mid-1830s. He's playing a concert when suddenly, in the wings across the stage, a strange tall blue box materializes out of nowhere! Liszt is so frightened that he faints dead away off the piano keys and into the arms of his page turner (based on a true infamous incident.) The Doctor hauls him off the stage and into the TARDIS, and off they go into the future! But something goes wrong--the TARDIS slips briefly out of the corporeal universe and Liszt, not being accustomed to such a manner of travel, loses his grip (erm?) and goes flying off into the digital cybersphere! When he comes to, frightened, he looks around him: everywhere nothing but words, words, words...most of them black, some of them blue, a few of them red. Pathways of information lead from one to the other and everything is moving and changing at lightning pace. He had been...drumroll...zapped into the Wikipedia itself!!! (*dramatic fadeout music.*) K. Lásztocska 00:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I knew exactly what you meant by "zap", but that wouldn't be much good for conversation, would it? Anyway, it'd be funnier if they ended up in the Matrix... Oh wait... Will ^(talk) 00:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Liszt's first-ever interplanetary concert tour! Includes stops on Gallifrey, Bajor and Alderaan. I hear the B minor sonata caused quite the sensation among the higher circles of Time Lord society. (And I have NOT seen "Last of the Time Lords" yet, so don't you DARE go spilling spoilers about Gallifreyan history.) K. Lásztocska 01:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the Gallifreyan history is in "The Sound of Drums" :) - I think the interplanetary tour would be a bit hard, seeing as two of those planets were destroyed (btw, that's not a spoiler) - anyway, I think it's best we both log off - then I can stop being silly and start reading my shiny new copy of The Silmarillion! (just had to brag :P) Will ^(talk) 01:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Quick reply

Sorry for the extensive delay. Yes, I think we can especially take a cue from the German Wikipedia. If you just take a look at their FAs from the last week:
1. This doesn't even have an English equivalent.
2. This is a laughable stub in English.
3. This is junk in English.
4. This is too.
5. This is too -- and it's an American film no less!
6. This follows the usual rule: any article on a German locality is about 300 times longer than its English equivalent -- but hey, at least we have the little flag in the infobox!
7. Finally, even though we too have FAs for this and this (1 and 2), I much prefer the German reluctance to split articles. I think you need to have that kind of length to have a serious article about India and Pakistan.
So, in conclusion, to really help Wikipedia, people should learn German and translate massively. (Though French and a few other Wikipedias also have some great articles.)

Yes, the Patriarch's death was most unfortunate and some even suspect foul play. While I go by the maxim "cockup before conspiracy", it's still odd that a 92-year-old man with a history of heart trouble was operated on when he could have been treated with antibiotics, and that the doctor in question was a plagiarist who also lied about there not being a scar on his body, which the acting Patriarch tried to hush up... Anyway, Dei gratia, we shall pull through.

By the by, I saw your conflict with (_______) has been revving up again. I think my rope-a-dope strategy has been yielding dividends lately. Other people are starting to notice, and honestly, how long do you think the community will tolerate someone who is incivil on quite a few edit summaries and makes his user page a no-go zone? Or perhaps I'm much too optimistic. In either case, this was a classic Freudian slip.

Oh, also, this was from a while back, but I just found out why Torb37 stopped contributing. This guy, you see, had a penchant for creating articles that were total gibberish. Sample of one of his not-yet-deleted creations. Finally I found out why he'd been so quiet of late. I almost felt sorry for him, but no.

Finally, on the general subject of Wikipedia's mediocrity in some areas, have you ever seen pages on Christianity? Take for instance Eucharist: an incoherent mess, a battleground mostly fought over by sectarian Protestant IPs. Or how about Son of man? I see lots of Hebrew writing, which I suppose is nice, but, not to sing this tune too many times, the Germans can do without a single use of Hebrew, and create a seemingly far more readable article. So: much work remains to be done. Biruitorul 06:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Lisztipedia... written by Russell T. Davies

Best pitch the idea to the BBC, who knows, it might get through. And strictly speaking, that message should be in not-English. Will ^(talk) 19:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I know, but I don't speak German or French well enough to do a convincing Liszt impersonation. :( How do you suppose he gets out, falls through a gaping logic hole on the Thalberg page? K. Lásztocska 19:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps... or we (you, me, Cliff) could get cameos to help him escape. And to nitpick your German using my five years at secondary school, it should be "Ach, kann ich nicht Deutsche sprechen", or in French, "Mais, je ne peux parler pas Francais". Then again, my German and especially my French are crappy, so don't expect 100% precision. Will ^(talk) 19:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Danke schön. K. Lásztocska 19:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Hooray for stock phrases! Will ^(talk) 19:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Was sagte du, Will? Das war so schade, das es fast nicht Deutsch war! :P (Mein eigen Deutsch ist nicht sehr gut, und zweifellos könnt' ich keine Lisztspiel spielen. :/ Aber Heimstern Läufer spricht ein gutes Deutsch.) Natürlich, du muß ein Übersetzung habe jetzt—dieses deutsches antworte (?) ist sondern lange… —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  04:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ugh, I am so maddeningly close to being able to understand that...K. Lásztocska 04:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

And I got the gist of it myself... Will ^(talk) 13:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Grammar towards the end is rather shaky…—  $PЯINGεrαgђ  14:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ну, хочешь говорить о плохой грамматике? Мой русский наверно гораздо хуже, чем твой немецкий! :P K. Lásztocska 14:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Pardon my de italicisation, but RUssian gets really screwed upt that way. :) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  14:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh come on, that's just not fair :( Will ^(talk) 14:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I said "You want to talk about bad grammar? My Russian is probably worse than your German!" K. Lásztocska 15:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't know, being unable to speak Russian... Will ^(talk) 15:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I used to be fluent, but I'm sure as heck not anymore. I've got a complete mental block, I can hardly string a complete sentence together and my accent is just shot to hell. I think learning about 1956 and az átkos 40 éve may have had something to do with it. K. Lásztocska 15:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Damn those Hungarian revolutions! Will ^(talk) 15:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I should have known—"грамматике", "русский", and "немецкий" are dead giveaways…and by my comment immediately after that, it seems my English may not even be as good as my German! 8-O —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  17:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Y'know, you guys have made my talk page look totally ridiculous... ;-) K. Lásztocska 17:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Not as ridiculous as mine—ever read my archives? :P —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  17:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Or WP:ANI on days :P Will ^(talk) 17:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

And sometimes even WP:RfA! —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  17:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Get a room, you three! ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Istvan (talk • contribs)

You know, I doubt Swallow wouldn't get into a room that didn't have a Liszt painting somewhere (I bet she has a whole shrine in hers) :P Will ^(talk) 20:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

What, doesn't everybody have pictures of their favorite composers up in their rooms? K. Lásztocska 01:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

All I have is a signed picture of Michael Owen, back when he was playing for Liverpool (it's to do with me seeing them some six years ago - I had suffered an injury and my parents, the nice caring souls, did the whole "He loves you, Owen!" and got my uncle (also a Pool fan) to take me to a match). And I said shrine - one of your walls has a giant picture, candles and precious locks of his hair dug from his grave. Will ^(talk) 01:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Did you just accuse me of idolatry, good sir? *haughty sniff* And just before St. Stephen's Day, at that....oh, and to steal locks of his hair from his grave would mean I'd have to go to Bayreuth, and have you heard what sort of nonsense they're staging there lately? It's enough to make a reactionary out of me. K. Lásztocska 01:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You could create a religion you know: Lisztianity. Yearly pilgrimages to Hungary, praying each night with his music playing, and best of all, tax-exemption. Will ^(talk) 01:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh my lord. I think dear Franzi just rolled over in his aforementioned grave. Y'know though, I was listening to the B minor sonata at one in the morning last night...K. Lásztocska 01:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Some say if you play it backwards during the third full moon of March, his ghost appears in your left trouser pocket. Will ^(talk) 01:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

That's it, I'm logging off!!!! :P K. Lásztocska 01:39, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow. That was funny. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  21:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

On a tangent, I keep watching Jens Lehmann's blunder in today's match. Funnier every time I see it. Will ^(talk) 21:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Eh! I didn't get to see the Arsenal match today (pity too, I do love that Tomas Rosicky.) Can you perhaps point me in the proper direction on YouTube? :) K. Lásztocska 23:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It's horrible quality, I know, but here it is (it's near the end). Also, that was never a penalty to Chelsea (proven by video evidence and, hey, it's Chelsea), fucking divers, grumble grumble. Still, it's funny to see Man U pick up only 2 points from 3 games. Will ^(talk) 00:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Happy St. Steven's Day, btw :) Will ^(talk) 21:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

It's "Stephen" (or István!), but thanx. :) I'm planning on taking the term "feast day" very literally and pigging out on all sorts of yummy Hungarian food...K. Lásztocska 22:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I always misspell names. Silly me. Will ^(talk) 10:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

No Silliness Past This Point

ATTENTION: This talk page has recently seen much more than its fair share of silliness and nonsense. While it has been entertaining, I must regretfully remind everyone that Wikipedia is a serious matter for serious people who must nearly always behave seriously. I am therefore forced to decree that there shall be *no more silliness* below this posting, or terrible things may happen. Maybe. Not really. It just sounded good. Anyway, I repeat, NO silliness past this line.K. Lásztocska 20:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

...or I shall be forced to say "Nyie!" to you...

Wasn't something like the above stted in Monty Python's film And Now for Something Comepetely Different, just before the marching and drilling (and swishing) scene? Oops Polictically incorrect and ... silly! Sorry. Jonyungk 00:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Second Vienna Award

Hi, sorry to bother you. I had a look at the article about the Second Vienna Award, and it has a POV Template. It shouldn´t really have it, as it is about an objective historical event. I think it should just contain the relevant, clear, neutral facts, or just be a stub. But a NPOV stub. Do you think you could help with anything ? --Venatoreng 21:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I believe that the event was an Award made by Nazi Germany and whoever was involved, so it doesn´t really matter if the Romanians cried or if the Hungarians danced, or what kind of dances they performed, the only things that matter are the cold, hard facts. When did it take place, what did it say, if you can put things into EUROPEAN context, then hurray. If not, let´s just leave it be. After all, it had no real historical consequence. I don´t know what´s the problem with people in Eastern Europe. --Venatoreng 23:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

No, but what did our forefathers do back then ? Did they fight in great battles ? No, it was just some award, that was supposed to represent the interests of GERMANY in Europe. It´s true that it may have also meant some racist measures, but those are so touchy that it´s perhaps better to leave them be (unless truly well documented), and just write about the European context, because Eastern Europe is in Europe. I don´t want to be an "Easterner" when that term implies "incorrigible idiot". Instead of evolving we only think about breaking necks and stealing an inch of land from one another, even when the situation makes it impossible. Then the Westerners come and impose "awards". --Venatoreng 23:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I´m afraid East and West are not connected (yet ?), but please note that I wrote EUROPEAN (the whole of it) context. The Hungarians should not be blamed for something Germany and Italy did. At least not as long as that would start an edit war. On the other hand, it would be absurd (and uncyclopedical) to write that the "award" meant justice, in my opinion. If the people can´t handle the truth, then we can´t give it to them in an Encyclopedia anybody can edit. We´re changing "weasel words" while our politicians make a mockery out of our nations´ hard sacrifices and true heroes, and authentic cultural achievements. --Venatoreng 23:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

An anonymous user 72.235.152.71 horribly vandalized the article about Spain. --Venatoreng 23:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I believe "many ethnic Hungarians" should be changed to "one third of the ethnic Hungarians", if that information is correct, and I don´t know if Bessarabia and Bukovina were "taken" by Romania after WWI, or if they willingly united. For the rest, I think you improved the article greatly. --Venatoreng 00:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Just when you'd think Tchaik was finished

As I've been going through what I thought would be a final polish on the Tchaikovsky article before archiving it, I've been reinserting parts of the early sections to plug what seemed content and continuity gaps in those areas. Could you please do me a huge favor and reread the article to see how it flows to you? Thanks so much! Jonyungk 00:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

A necessary remark

For some reasons (which you know) I must repeat that there are kinds of behaviour which nobody will like and which nobody must like. Since I happened to read yesterday you'd like to strip that Thalberg article down to the bare bones and start again from scratch, I'd suggest, please go ahead and do it now. Strip that article down to the bare bones and start again from scratch. My posting of August 7, 2007, in the chapter P.O.V. on the Thalberg talk page has turned out to have been perfectly true. Just for correcting a false impression: When helping me in connection with the article about Thalberg, it was not done as your favour towards me, but as favour towards those readers of Wikipedia who want to get an informative and reliable article. It was exactly this purpose for which I did, bona fide, a hard job. Nobody could, and no reader of Wikipedia can guess that in reality there is a small group of persons, playing chat-room games and behaving as if certain articles were parts of their private possession, wishing they could block all others who might disturb their peace; and nobody will expect that every article about piano music of the 19th century must be written for the purpose of praising and adoring a single artist of so-called Hungarian nationality. In fact, being even stronger involved in a quasi religious fanaticism, your understanding of "neutrality of point of view", is utterly impossible. In other words, you will not really expect that a person will take a strennous task while you are distributing insulting gossip about him.80.145.19.64 08:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

"There are SO many things I've wanted to say from the beginning of our benighted association, but I have bit my tongue, held back, tried for diplomacy." It sounds interesting, and I am, of course, very curious to know what might happen when you are not biting your tongue. So, please, let us try it, and tell me what you wanted to say. For some reasons I'm thinking of the saying: "Wer austeilen will muss auch einstecken können:" ("Who wants to hit out must also be prepared to take.")80.144.161.59 10:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, sir, I'd rather not. At this point I believe I'll be taking the very opposite strategy from that curious German saying you quoted: you may heap invective and scorn on me as much as you like, but I don't intend to give you the satisfaction of sinking to the same level myself. Good day. K. Lásztocska 14:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

80.144/145, I think you may find editing Wikipedia to be a much more fruitful and satisfactory enterprise if you avoid making it personal. Stick to the issues and do not insult or provoke the other editors. Ad hominem remarks only poison the atmosphere for everyone. Asking other editors to engage in ad hominem attacks, which you are essentially doing in your comment, is just as unhelpful. Thank you for your understanding, Antandrus (talk) 15:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Mehr Anspornen (wie der englischen wort "goading") kann in der Versionen/Autoren dieser Seite gefunden werden. Ich habe die Anmerkung gelöscht, die hier war. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  18:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

A counter-remark (?)

I saw that. Well, it's worth a try, isn't it? :) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  04:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand. :) It's why I didn't enable mine until about four months after I joined here. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  04:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Protection

I have asked for Talk: and Franz Liszt to be protected, and I may do the same for Thalberg. Would you like me to ask for your talk page to be semi-pretected as well? —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  18:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Does that mean you're fine with Thalberg's semi-protection? (Remember that at WP:RFPP they can and may be declined.) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  18:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. Are you fine with putting up the RFPP yourself since I should have been offline since a few minutes ago? If not, I'll do it when I come back. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  18:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

What the...? So if the Franz Liszt talk page can be protected, why not the Romani people talk page? --Kuaichik 19:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Then again, I seem to be making some headway with that Irish guy (for now, anyway). So please, don't be toooo quick to protect the talk page :) --Kuaichik 20:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Nobody would protect a talk page anyway--the request was denied for reasons I really can't disagree with. It would take huge-scale torrents of invective and obscenities before a talk page could be protected. K. Lásztocska 20:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see. BTW, if you were talking to me (when you said something about how proof should be presented that Romani crime rates are high), don't worry. I'm definitely not advocating the stereotypical "gypsy = thief" view; I'm just presenting Prof. Hancock's take on why the stereotype exists and what the reality is.

I don't think you'll find anything objectionable in my proposed Roma and Crime section, since it is basically explaining what Prof. Hancock says on the subject. I'm more worried about that Irish guy; I'm predicting that he might not like the reality. --Kuaichik 21:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Goodness no! I was most definitely addressing that Irish fellow. A "Roma and Crime" section is not in itself a bad idea, in fact it's probably a good one given how inextricably linked "gypsy" and "thief" are in the popular imagination. I was concerned, as you surmised, that the Irishman would take totally the wrong approach to it and we'd all end up in the middle of a troll-fest again. Sensitive topic, so we should tread carefully, but if done well it could be a tremendously good and useful addition to the article. K. Lásztocska 22:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah. I just realized that this Irish guy is the same as the guy who wrote that stupid "Advice for retailers" section. Oh, well. We'll deal with him somehow.

I'll be off Wikipedia fairly soon (in six days I think). I can only hope that the article & talk page don't go through major hassles while I'm gone...

Anyway, why are you apologizing? I was saying that I am not doing any real work. I have lots of research to do, but I can't seem to get into it. Hopefully, I'll be able to solve that problem...somehow. *Sigh* :-/ But you don't have to apologize! :) --Kuaichik 22:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I assume you mean a different Irish guy than me. ;) I read the edit summary on my watchlist and I was like "what trouble am I in now?" :P —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  23:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Ack, no, Springy, a totally different Irish guy! :) Kuaichik--thanks, I just misinterpreted your comment/tone I guess. Anyhoo...K. Lásztocska 23:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Anyhoo…that's a word I've never heard. :/ Tea, anyone? ;) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  23:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

zOMG Lastochka has 666 talk edits. -gasps- -realises he doesn't care- -Carves DCLXVI on the Great Wall of China- —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  00:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

/me says "Treguna mekoides tracorum satis dee" in dog Latin to exorcise the Swallow Will ^(talk) 01:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Hahahaha...my Latin is sooo bad I have no clue what you just said. However, as this is apparently my 667th talk page post, I'll use it to write random links to Saint Francis of Assisi, Saint Elizabeth of Hungary, and of course the recently-fêted Saint Stephen. That ought to do the drive-away-the-evil-spirits trick, anyway...K. Lásztocska 02:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually I thought it was user talk, but it was regular talk. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  02:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks to you and Will (and Biruitorul, but that's a long, erm, story) I've probably got WAY more than 666 user-talk edits. :P K. Lásztocska 02:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not Latin, it's magic... Will ^(talk) 02:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Row, row, row your boat,

Fueled by Uranium,

La di da di da di da,

Dum de dum de dum.

­:P Will ^(talk) 02:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Bwahahahahahaaaaa! We will destroy the fascist pirates and retake Constantinople yet!! :-D (and I think "Ok, I just HAVE to explain the nuclear rowboats" has got to be my best edit summary EVER.) I wish we'd managed to write the final chapters before getting busted by the admins--our erstwhile antagonist had been raised from the dead and turned into a vampire and we were SO looking forward to spoofing Dracula fiction.K. Lásztocska 02:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

811 to be exact :D —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  02:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey (to K. Lásztocska :)...I don't know your real name :-P). Since you haven't said it yet, I thought I might say it for you: Nyie! :-D

BTW, the last time I heard nyie! was all the way back in Kindergarten, when one of my classmates was a Russian girl who spoke no English. Since I loved learning languages even back then, I learned (some) Russian and was the only person who could try to talk to her in her own language. So one day, we were lining up (to leave from recess and go back to the classroom, I think). She cut in front of me, and I tried to explain to her that you're not supposed to. But when I got in front of her again, she screamed Nyie! so I let her :-D --Kuaichik 03:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually that was supposed to be "NI!", as in, the Knights who say "Ni". It just came out as "nyie" in the mind of a Hungarian. ;-) (I didn't add that particular gem, it was Istvan.) K. Lásztocska 03:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh! Oh, well, I guess the cutting-in-line story was an entertaining one anyway :-P

Now, I'm just curious, what do you mean that you will take Constantinople back from the "fascists"? Interestingly, speaking of people who took over Constantinople, Desiphral just told me today that he also speaks Turkish. (In that message, the title Kathe sem! means "Here I am!" in Romani, and evet, türkçe bil[i]yorum means "yes, I know Turkish" in Turkish! The first sentence is also in Romani, but as you can see, Desiphral has been kind enough to translate it...even though in this case I understood it without any real problems.)

(*whistles Turkish "wine shop" music*) :) --Kuaichik 04:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Ehh, there was a misadventure a while back where my buddy Biruitorul and I were amusing ourselves by satirizing the ongoing dramatic soap opera that is Wikipedia in the form of a gloriously overwrought naval epic (Horatio Hornblower meets Dr. Strangelove.) It was a lot of fun, we caricatured ourselves just as mercilessly as we did our antagonists, brought in one ludicrous plot twist after another (in one chapter, some Arrow Cross pirates boarded my ship and tied me up, meanwhile Biru had been seized by even more religious fervor than usual and was heading off to retake Constantinople for Orthodoxy. We got a little carried away, and ended up in a bit of hot water, but no harm done really. :) K. Lásztocska 04:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Cookies

I'm sorry to see that you are having to lower your editing level. :( Here are some cookies, hopefully to help you when on the way back to normal! :) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  05:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

This is better, though :) Will ^(talk) 01:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, good Lord. And I thought he'd learned his lesson. Groan...K. Lásztocska 01:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you seriously want to know the reason? It's because you have breasts. (Apologies for vulgarity or offensiveness). Will ^(talk) 23:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not holding a major grudge against the guy, but I've got Nicolae Ceauşescu‎ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) on watchlist just in case he tries to pull the "kangaroo trial" thing again. By the way, I was originally going to say "tits", but decided that was definitely too vulgar. To expand, a girl on the internet is a rare thing and some males may feel that their intelligence is threatened, thus belittling them to maintain their Alpha status. (Hey, I feel like that nature guy on the telly now) That, and "whore" aimed at a woman is on the same offensiveness scale as "fag" to a man, if not more and people are normally unnecessarily mean. Will ^(talk) 23:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

You have a good point - and the vandalism I reverted on your userpage is vandalism, per WP:VANDAL, but my reversions on his talk page do fall into that grey area... and Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo is the worst name I ever heard. Will ^(talk) 13:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm. Interesting. - Alison ☺ 13:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Please continue your good work, don't let yourself fooled by Anonimu. That user should be banned! --222.236.44.14 15:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Bonaparte. Go away. K. Lásztocska 15:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Nice one :) - if Anonimu hadn't kept on trolling you (and Cliff), I wouldn't have bothered with him. I really don't give a crap about C/E Europe, btw. I was winding down a bit anyway and going to let him dig his own grave. Besides, that IP is an open proxy, I've just checked port 8080. Will ^(talk) 15:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Correct!

Starting Nmap 4.21ALPHA4 ( http://insecure.org ) at 2007-08-25 08:50 PDT
Interesting ports on 222.236.44.14:
Not shown: 1682 closed ports
PORT      STATE    SERVICE
21/tcp    open     ftp
25/tcp    open     smtp
80/tcp    open     http
88/tcp    open     kerberos-sec
135/tcp   filtered msrpc
136/tcp   filtered profile
137/tcp   filtered netbios-ns
138/tcp   filtered netbios-dgm
139/tcp   filtered netbios-ssn
443/tcp   open     https
445/tcp   filtered microsoft-ds
554/tcp   open     rtsp
1008/tcp  open     ufsd
1025/tcp  open     NFS-or-IIS
1032/tcp  open     iad3
1433/tcp  open     ms-sql-s
3128/tcp  filtered squid-http
3389/tcp  open     ms-term-serv
4444/tcp  filtered krb524
7070/tcp  open     realserver
8080/tcp  open     http-proxy
17300/tcp filtered kuang2

Nmap finished: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 15.421 seconds

... and now it's blocked :) - Alison ☺ 15:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I ran an nmap on it too. Only mine took 370 seconds :( Will ^(talk) 15:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Tabán

I hope you're well! Could you please take a look at this message? Thank you in advance! NCurse _work 13:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi there

Hello KL :-), thanks for the message. I am periodically taking a look at Wikipedia so please do not hesitate to leave a message if I can be of any assistance to you. It is always a honour. Anyway, I am still not in the mood to be very active here, our little discussions with Panonian had an unexpectedly strong negative effect on my attitude towards Wikipedia. This is strange and cannot be explained "józan paraszti ésszel" (with common sense or however you call it over there :-) because, the same time there are also a lot of nice and wise people in this place.

_{I was thinking about joining the counter-demonstration against this strange Magyar Gárda on Saturday but decided not to go when I heard there were some people like Tamás Gáspár Miklós preparing to perform speeches there...} --KIDB 14:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Gallifrey, Ireland. Population: 1

Just to calm down the atmosphere... how was Doctor Who on Friday night? By my calculations, you should've just seen "Human Nature", which I think is brilliant, but of course, opinions differ. Oh, and I hope you don't hate me for readding the {{POV-title}} on Soviet occupation of Romania - just killing the poor sock who got caught in the honeytrap - and I agree with you about it being near impossible for talk pages to be protected - I tried to get (spoilers!) Talk:Last of the Time Lords protected because:

1. The mainpage had been semi-ed due to a totally legitimate citation to a "disgusting site" (uk.gay.com);
2. Because of this, the IPs tended to go onto the talk page arguing for the removal of the citation because it was "corrupting children", pretty much lambasting homosexuality as much as they can. Moral panickers, I hate you so much.

As it turned out, I was told to RBI (well, not block, but you know...). Will ^(talk) 16:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Jeez

Hi. Tell me, have you seen this gem? I'm too jaded to even deal with it. Dahn 10:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but you didn't see that "bloodthirsty" is referenced. It looks like you people will have to keep quiet from now on! To the obvious insanity of the comment, add this: Erzsébet Báthory comments coming as "proof" from the land of Dracula... It has got to the absolute psychological projection

To answer your main question: no, I don't think so. The disorders don't appear to match - I won't get into details, since at least one of them is probably reading this. I mean, although Boni is naturally acting inanely and thinks he is more clever than he is, I don't want to give him tools to make it harder for admins to dig him up.

However, the chase is on and has led people to something just as interesting (if not more). A conversation was started here, and I realize now that we may have dealt with A Legend. Up to now, the name Irismeister was to me what Byzantium must have been to the Ethiopians, what Prester John was to the Portuguese, and what Mordor was to the Halflings. Little did I know that a person of such reputation and with such complex and turbid issues was a Romanian. (Btw, if you click the link, please read Bogdan's comment there - I'm sure you'll love it.) Yes, you may have got it wrong, but it is clearly not your fault: among health problems, the percentage of mental disorders in Romania is significantly to overwhelmingly higher than the European average — which implies a larger panel to choose from, and in turn must be confusing for the onlooker.

Speaking of such stuff, note that Boni would have to be the only Székely describing himself as a "secui" in a conversation with a Hungarian. You see, in his ridiculous little tribal world, if you pretend you're part of a minority, you make it seem like you're more authoritative or less biased, allowing you to write down whatever chauvinist nonsense crosses your head. The problem here is that Boni actually believes all people live in this world. It also seems that he thinks: "Jeez, I've just been banned for ever, after I created socks, attacked users, pushed POV, and vandalized. Therefore, I should create 10,000 more socks and attack 1,000 more users. But, while at it, I would like to be perceived as an unbiased editor". This behavior goes hand in hand with him calling me "a cocksucker" and the like, and then using another sockpuppet to tell me that I am a mean and rude person. Priceless.

Oh, and, of course: you're welcome.

I was actually going to ask you if you would be interested in helping me (and perhaps Biru, if he's game) with some articles on various Hungarian persons in Romania. In some cases, the info is split 50-50 between Hungarian and Romanian sources, and we could bridge gaps in no time. (I notice your userboxes say you're merely a hu-2, but I'm a hu-0...) I'm all caught up with Caragiale and some related articles at the moment (which must be something like your composer articles - only more prosaic), but this is something I would love to do in the future, and you're the indisputably the best editor to help or supervise me in such matters. I also wanted to ask you stuff about Hungarian pages and where they are going - I'm sorry to say, but Hungarian articles and categories are seemingly lagging behind their Romanian counterparts (and their equivalents in general), and the content is structured chaotically, if not simply duplicated. I see this when I'm editing something related to Hungary and I wonder "where should I link this?", or when I have to see what cats one article could be included in. I also wanted to ask your input about subcategorizing Austro-Hungarian people by ethnicity, and if you think that it is feasible and reasonable to open the way for an "ethnic Hungarian Austro-Hungarians" cat (unlike all other possible subcats, "ethnic German Austro-Hungarians" included, this one is bound to raise some eyebrows and create misunderstandings). Oh, and then the Second Vienna Award business. I admit I didn't pay as much attention to these as I did to other issues - and since I kept seeing banners at the top of your talk page ("busy", "hit the wall", "out"), I kept postponing the questions and then forgot. But I did read many of your comments on Biru's page (we stalk each other from time to time, and unsurprisingly end up in the same places).

Anyway, there will be time for this more than blundering our merry way along. I hope to see you back soon, and I hope all goes well with you.

PS: I must confess that Boni's attack was partly my fault: I semi-protected my userpages, which must have led him to spew his stuff on other pages (he visited you, Anonimu, and Biru - all of you for the very first time). I should apologi... or, wait, isn't it a rite of passage by now? In which case: congrats (though perhaps not a "many happy returns"). Now quick, to the Dahnmobile. Dahn 01:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey, Karen. sorry, I just couldn't resist :) Unfortunately, my day ended just as your began, so I wasn't able to catch up in time with your next-to-last last post. And then... well, you saw what happened. Don't worry about Biru: he has been accused of being my fan - over something to with a Sébastiani -, so, you see, it's all a giant groupie base.

Ain't it funny how accusations of minimizing crimes against Romanians turn out to be sourced from Holocaust negationists? I wonder what William Totok and Keith Hitchins would think of having to share a page with Theodoru and Ilie Ceauşescu's cronies... (btw: Totok speaks of Wass and Wass only, while I doubt that Hitchins speaks of anything paraded in the article - though perhaps he mentions Ip and Trezenea in passing). And what would you say is best: the Bucium Monastery or the "reference" to Wass' Securitate file? (For the record, whatever John and his socks decide to post, I'm not going to bother replying.) Btw, the Wass article should be: a. copyedited; b. sourced from reliable sources; c. structured to include that he was actually convicted for (more than?) two crimes.

Concerning our earlier discussion: I was thinking of looking into info on people such as László Szabédi and the more obscure Imre Aladar (I know about the diacritics, but there's this) and János Vincze/Ion Vincze/Ion Vinţe (it seems the intermediary version is what he actually preferred). I suppose the Hungarian-language material would help a lot, and we could also get other Hungarian users (if there are any left) to assist. The first of the three seems to be rather important to culture in general, while for the other two I found some info which looks to be detailed and essential, but in a language that is mysterious to me.

Thank you for the words of surely undeserved appreciation (from one member of the duo, as I'll readily apply them to Biru). This productivity, as was hinted, is largely made possible by the fact that I am king of a small European country, which allows to me to edit wiki for as long as I wish ;). Good thing I'm also too lazy to start them RfCs... but perhaps one of these days...

I was meaning to ask you several other things, but I forgot many of them (and my patience has been too tested today for me to keep a clear head). Oh, btw: you didn't answer on the Austro-Hungarian subcategorizing issue (probably because I was bombarding you with stuff). Nothing urgent (especially since such categorizing may be tedious), but do you think it is correct? I believe it may be useful, but I can see it being misinterpreted - though the Aster Revolution and other events probably signified that many Hungarians did not feel represented by the Monarchy, it may seem like the category is trying to make a point. I would also like to know if the terminology doesn't strike you as incoherent. Best, Dahn 17:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Slippage

...in my response time. I'll have more to write later, but first: here's something interesting - and something in which you played no part! We'll see if I make it out alive this time. Biruitorul 22:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, the madness! By the way, I owe you for this, and for defending me on the racism/LGBT discussion (where people seemed to interpret policy points I was making as being based on my morality, which was false - they were in fact rooted in policy alone). That ANI seems to have quickly degenerated into the same sort of morass of ad-hominems we're used to, and I find Anonimu's claim here to be disturbing - "i only have called you his groupie (and i own the trademark for that term in relation to you)". As far as I know, you still rightly regard that as a personal attack, so his invoking a right to apply that offensive term to you shouldn't be allowed to slide, as far as I can tell. But yes, holodeni, philofascist, waffen...strange that history was so quickly and conveniently forgotten. Biruitorul 00:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Here's a small gift for you, though it's dry as dust: Ion Vincze. Biruitorul 03:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I transcribed several Reds' biographies from that book in May and they've been sitting, waiting to be turned into articles. You and Dahn talking about him, plus your ANI performance (an odd turn of phrase, but anyway), were the article-creation catalyst.

On von Vecsey, a question arises. Might the format not rather be changed to "born Vecsey Ferenc"? It's not a big deal, but the only time I've seen "[[Language]]: jfrjwrhfh" is either for names in different alphabets, or for non-biographical entries (universities, wars, novels, etc). Granted, Hungarian is a special case (a {{eastern name order|Gyurcsány Ferenc}} template exists for that), but he changed his first name, etc. Also, is there a photo source? Best to put "scanned by me from ..." or whatever is the case, in order to safeguard against deletion. Biruitorul 04:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

By all means; there's no sense of urgency here. Yes, I now see where you got the picture. I've frankly been quite cavalier in my attitude to copyright issues for anything that looks older than say the 1940s, but there is an image copyright police here who will surely, at some point, tag the image based on Wikipedia:Image copyright tags, in particular the clause reading "Along with a tag, specify the source or copyright holder information. Provide as much detail as possible." However, those tags can be removed and then ignored safely. Biruitorul 05:10, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words and apt defense of my case. I've now been acquitted. I guess we can after all call Communism a "demented ideology", which is quite gratifying. In fact I'm tempted (but probably not, since I don't want to push the envelope too far) to use the infobox you see here.

This user believes that Communism, documented to have killed close to 100 million people, is a demented ideology.

Biruitorul 16:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Lovely chap, ain't he? I hope he gets slapped down. (And Anonimu, if you're reading this - no, I do not mean a physical assault against your body, but a vigorous verbal rebuff, so don't try filing another ANI complaint claiming I've threatened violence to your person.) Biruitorul 21:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, but you've stalked me too, haven't you? In fact I have a suspicion that people in our near circle (friends and enemies alike) all stalk each other, but we're loath to admit it. Anyway, I happen to have found a password to the excellent Dictionary of National Biography. Should you wish, I could give it to you too so you can expand on the biographies of 54,000 or so British people. Biruitorul 04:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Magyarization

Perhaps one may write an article on "automagyarization" to describe all the civil-service job seekers who changed their names to get a spot at the post office or railroad (quite a plum job in the day) or those who married into magyar families, etc. etc. Anyway, good to read you again, and good luck in conservatory! I bet you are as enthusiastic a musician as you are here... István 21:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Caragiale, Austro-Hungarian somethings and PD photos

I'm sorry for the delay. Your posts deserved a complete answer, and I kept postponing it - only to find that I did not have the time to do so.

Thank you! That means a lot - I've never worked on an article as much as on that one, and I well and truly appreciate any feedback. It also happens that I love that writer, and his work deserves exposure and context (both of which Romanian editors seem to enjoy discarding). He is also probably the most uncomfortable writer for the average Romanian nationalist, so you may find him and his work interesting from this perspective. Plus, his work is not only beautifully written, but it may serve to explain some less-known facts about Romania and its past. If you have the time and feel like it, I would also welcome a copyedit once I'm done with the bulk of the references.

Concerning my Austro-Hungarian proposal. I agree up to a point, but there are some things that I feel I should point out. One is that, although I understand the risk of Balkanization, we should get to do something about such subcats. Consider that they exist for all present-day states, and for many defunct ones - in multi-ethnic Austria-Hungary, they should be a given (at least, on principle). My rationale has mainly to do with the tendency of successor-states editors to include articles on, say, a Romanian who never lived in Romania under "Romanian somethings", which is not at all helpful. It is also self-evident that the more liberal regime of Austria-Hungary allowed or even encouraged people to define themselves as "ethnic somethings", and that those categories formed an important part of its political class: people like Iuliu Maniu and Aurel Popovici were very loyal subjects of the Emperor -though perhaps not of the King ;)- before being anything else. This is why I allowed myself to start the process from my side (Category:Romanian Austro-Hungarians).

I did catch a glimpse of the Liszt controversy (involving Greier, wasn't it?), but I would have to say that it is outside the point I was making. While I with MOS:BIO agree that citizenship should be prioritized over ethnicity, there are many better ways to compromise than the current lead there (perhaps "Imperial Austrian-born Hungarian composer]]" with "Liszt was born into an ethnic Hungarian family in the village of Doborján etc"?). Granted, I don't know what system one should adopt in categorizing pre-1867 Austrian subjects, as well as people on all sides who made their name during the 1848 nightmare. On the other hand, Liszt tied his name to the pre-1867 situation, which makes him fall outside the much clearer lines set by the Ausgleich.

The problem that I see is "where to stop it". While "ethnic somethings Austro-Hungarians" is, if I dare say so myself, a beautiful compromise, an informative quick reference, and a perfect intersection of categories for Czechs, Croats, Romanians, Slovaks, Jews, Italians, Ukrainians, Poles, Serbs, Slovenes, and perhaps Germans and Bosniaks, I would picture it being problematic for Hungarians (at least, for seeming redundant). This is what my original question was about. To rephrase: should we aim for this category as well?

Concerning the shortcomings of Hungarian-related contributions. I commented on what struck me as a weird and counterproductive idea here. I would appreciate a second opinion on my proposals for a way out, because it was just me discussing it with an editor who saw nothing wrong with it.

I agree with your point about PD images, though, if the author is not acknowledged in either the original or a secondary source, the chances are that the template applies. I had a fluke once with this: notice that it is signed in the left-hand corner; using that, I was able to track down a reference to the photographer in some newspaper article, and it turned out that he retired of old age in 1922 (which makes it unlikely that he lived for much longer after that date). If this is what is required, I hope serendipity visits you too.

The subjects of my kingdom have received your greetings, and they are currently discussing what public square should be named in your honor - they suggested the main one in the capital, but that is were we do beheadings (plus, it is currently named after me).

Please consider archiving this page: the length is seriously imparing my browser (I typed this message faster than its letters were lining up).

Thank you again for everything. Boogie down, Dahn 00:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

PS: I was thinking of an article on the Baia Mare School (of painting), which is an important topic for both Romania[ns] and Hungary[-ians]. It popped up in some articles I worked on, and I have rather abundant material from Romanian sources - but I'm sure Hungarian ones are much more interesting. I'm currently still probing around, but perhaps you could find out users who may be interested in this subject, and perhaps help organize the common effort. Oh, and: it may turn out that the title should actually be "Nagybánya School".

I didn't actually know that much about Vincze, but the article turned out to be a perfect illustration about how arguments on both sides of the Hungarian-Romanian debate tend to carry little weight in front of the cynical truth. And I should add: 1956-related stuff like the one outlined in Ion Vincze, Valter Roman and Romanian Communist Party should perhaps make it in the larger articles, and (drumroll...) could perhaps be summarized in Hungarian Revolution of 1956. I know Biru would want it that way, so please let me if and how I should try my hand at it. (In fact, there's an entire source largely dealing with the Romanian-Hungarian communist tango during those years, which you may find interesting.) Dahn 00:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)