Abbie444

August 2023

Hello, I'm Sumanuil. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to Sher Afgan Khan have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse or the Help desk. Thanks. - Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 20:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Sumanuil. Can you please tell me on what ground you assume that my edit were not constructive? the Farsi name شيرافگن Sherafgun or sherafgin has nothing to do with sher Afgan? there is no Afghan (ethnic) there. It sis one word and has no relation to Afghan. I don't understand why would you purposely change something to a completely false and inaccurate translation? Anyone who knows a word of Farsi know exactly what شيرافگن sherafgin means, can you explain what the word Afghan come from and why you added "Afghan" to something that clearly does not say Afghan?

thanks Abbie Abbie444 (talk) 21:18, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

File names and references are not "false and inaccurate translations". - Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 23:48, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I posted this in talk "I'm relatively new to editing, so I kindly request understanding if I don't adhere perfectly to the procedure. I've identified a minor translation error related to a Farsi term that significantly alters the meaning of the word in question. The mistake not only misconstrues the identity but also fails to accord respect to a notable historical figure.

The individual in question is Ali Quli Istajlu, also known as Sherafgun (شيرافگن), the first husband of Nur Jahan. Regrettably, the author of the article seems to have misinterpreted the Farsi word "شيرافگن". The term was translated as "Sher of Afghan," which implies "Afghan lion." The Afghans, primarily residing in southern Afghanistan, are also referred to as Pashtuns. Due to this mistranslation, Ali Quli, who was ethnically Turkmen, has been inaccurately labeled an "Afghan lion."

The true meaning of the Farsi word "شيرافگن" is "one who throws or tosses a lion." I recognize how the latter part of the word might sound reminiscent of "Afghan" but it doesn't pertain to the Afghan ethnicity. Instead, it's derived from a Farsi verb meaning "to throw."

It's understandable how someone unfamiliar with Farsi might make this error. I attempted to rectify this mistake, but the author reverted my edit to "Sher Afghan" without providing any rationale. I urge those knowledgeable in Farsi to chime in and confirm this correction" This is Afghan in Farsi افغان you assumed افگن which sound like Afghan, actually means Afghan. Abbie444 (talk) 00:08, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

None of that merits "correcting" file names or references. Or pestering me on my talk page for an answer I'd already given you. And I don't know whose edits you're talking about. Nobody is trying to change the spelling to "Afghan". - Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 00:51, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Welcome!

Hello, Abbie444, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of your recent edits to the page Afghan did not conform to Wikipedia's verifiability policy, and may have been removed. Wikipedia articles should refer only to facts and interpretations verified in reliable, reputable print or online sources or in other reliable media. Always provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. Wikipedia also has a related policy against including original research in articles.

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Please read about disambiguation pages, which have special functions and are not the same as articles. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 00:41, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your warm welcome and thorough instructions. I truly appreciate it and am more than willing to adhere to them.

Considering that the comprehensive details I've provided about the issue have not been challenged, might I suggest that we arrange an independent verification of the translation for the word "شیرافگن" into English? This would aid in conclusively settling the matter. I am confident in your commitment to accurate information dissemination and believe that you wouldn't want to perpetuate any misleading or false translations.

To reiterate, I've been explicit in pointing out the translation error, including its origin and the reasons behind the mistranslation. The terms "شیرافگن" and "شیرافغان" are distinct with vastly different meanings. Regrettably, the translation of "شیرافگن" (Shirafgun) as "شیرافغان" (Sher Afghan) has altered not only the word's meaning but the entire context of the article. This inadvertent error has misattributed an Afghan ethnicity to a historical figure of Turkman descent.

Interestingly, I noticed someone within the article tried translating the word akin to "tiger grapple." While "sher" does not translate to "tiger," I commend the effort for capturing a closer essence of the meaning. The original Persian title, "شیرافگن," translates to "lion thrower" and does not allude to the Afghan ethnicity in any capacity.

I'm genuinely puzzled as to the persistence in using a translation that's manifestly incorrect. If there's skepticism regarding my explanation, I wholeheartedly encourage seeking a second opinion from a Persian linguist. I remain steadfast in my belief that, with proper validation, the article will be revised to reflect the accurate translation and meaning. thanks once again. Abbie444 (talk) 01:06, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if Schazjmd or JFHJr can help me to put this on the right platform. JFHJr correctly identifies the problem and gives the correct translation Sumanuil The words افگن (A-f-g-n) and افغان (A-f-ġ-ā-n) are unrelated. Additional vowels are placed by language and preference (of a source, a subject... and inconsistently at times!). The name cannot be spelled Afghan normally. Without a reliable source, it's original research. JFHJr (㊟) 23:41, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Stop posting at the Biogaphies of LIVING persons noticeboard about this subject. If you continue, your edits will become disruptive. Thank you for understanding. JFHJr (㊟) 00:41, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@Abbie444, you should discuss this at Talk:Sher Afgan Khan. (Looks like someone brought up a similar matter in 2014 but it was never resolved.) Schazjmd (talk) 23:56, 26 August 2023 (UTC) Abbie444 (talk) 00:28, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Abbie444: The current article, as well as the version before you started to edit [1] does not say anything about a connection of the subject to Afghan or Pashtun ethnicity. In fact, the only time it the word Afghan is use is in the sentence "In 1607, Qutbuddin Khan Koka was instructed to send Sher Afgan Khan to the court as he was accused of negligence and siding with Afghan rebels and transferred". The source for this is unclear although might be "Shaikh Khubu, Qutbuddin Khan i Chishti of Fatehpur Sikri Ain-i-Akbari, by Abul Fazl" so technically it might be removable but that applies to most of the article. However whatever the truth of this statement, I see no reason to think it results from some confusion that the name Sher Afgan Khan implies Afghan ethnicity. For example, I think many people think Bernard Lewis was unfairly biased towards the Turkish PoV about the Armenian Genocide. However I don't think many people think this is because he was of Turkish ethnicity which AFAIK he wasn't.

If you think people will incorrectly assume that the name implies the subject has Afghan ethnicity potentially we could add a footnote if we had a source for this. But frankly I see no reason to think people will suffer from this confusion, especially when we already explicitly say Sher Afgan Khan was a Turkoman and say he was given the name by Prince Salim and we even translate the name. I do not assume Jimbo Wales has Welsh ancestry although frankly I know far less about how he got that name or why he might have it. Note that the redirection from Sher Afghan Khan will stay and also a redirect from Sher Afgan Khan if we ever move the article since it seems these transliteration whatever their accuracy are common enough that the redirects make sense to guide readers who may find these other transliterations.

Speaking of the translation, it does seem you're likely correct and tiger grappler is not a good translation of the name. Unfortunately the statement may or may not be sourced. More importantly we really need a source for any translation. If you have a good reliable source for an accurate translation of the name, preferably one that actually mentions the subject of our article and not just the name, please provide it and it's likely we can update the article.

As for the transliteration of the name, this is generally at best an imprecise art especially when you consider that it can also be influenced by the language the transliteration is targeted at and it's quite common a transliteration of a personal name might persist across different languages. But anyway even if there is a standardised way to do so nowadays (whether into English or generally), it doesn't mean all names are going to be transliterated this way and especially not historic names known enough to have already common transliterations. Unfortunately most of the links in the article that I saw are dead, but I did find one that uses Afgan [2] and two that use Afghan [3] [4] although it is unlikely the second one is an RS. An internet search find a lot of modern people with the name Sher Afgan, I'm assuming likely from the same root suggesting even generally it might be a common transliteration. In any case if Sher Afgan Khan is the most common transliteration for the name of the person our article talks about, then per WP:Common name it is the name we'll generally title the article and use in it. We might add some additional clarification and alternative transliterations and again if we think subjects might be confused we would add a sentence or probably footnote to clarify the there is no connection to Afghan but that's about. We are unlikely to title the name after a uncommon transliteration if there is a common one, no matter if it's felt more correct.

As already mentioned, you really need to open a discussion at Talk:Sher Afgan Khan so these concerns will hopefully receive the attention of other editors.

Nil Einne (talk) 02:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)