Template:Did you know nominations/Violin Sonata (Poulenc)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 06:49, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Violin Sonata (Poulenc) edit

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~~... that Francis Poulenc wrote about his Violin Sonata which he premiered as the pianist with Ginette Neveu: "It is not bad, I think"?~~ Source: [1] "Ce n'est pas mal, je crois"

Reviewed: Nkosi's Haven
Comment: probably pointless to ask for the composer's birthday, because the prep for the day is already full ...

Created by LouisAlain (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 19:23, 4 January 2017 (UTC).

This article is new enough and long enough and I have added Gerda's name to the "make" credits. The article is neutral and the sources not available to me. I would have passed the nomination, but really the hook is too awkward, trying to include too many details. I also prefer the bit of the quotation where Poulenc states "The monster is finished". Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:07, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

OK, we had several Poulenc good pieces with wind instruments, can be short for this one:

ALT1: ~~... that when Francis Poulenc completed his only surviving violin sonata he commented: "The monster is finished."?~~ Source: [2] "Le monstre de ma Sonate est au point."

While I am sure that "not bad" is a good translation of "pas mal", I am less convinced of the other one, "sonate" certainly missing, and "au point" saying more than merely "finished". What do you think, LouisAlain? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:29, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

C'est au point actually means: there's no more to add to it; it's just OK the way it is, don't spoil it by trying to "perfect" it. (like a dish which is perfect)

Is there a term in English? "Finished" seems to be too harmless, - leave "au point"? In German, some use the French term for steaks ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:23, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

How about dropping "finished" or whatever?

ALT2: ~~... that Francis Poulenc called his Violin Sonata a monster of a sonata?~~ --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:34, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

ALT3: ~~... that Francis Poulenc described his Violin Sonata as a monster?~~ Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:09, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Catchy, but is "described" the right term? Serious question, it may be just my lack of English, - I would expect a description then, Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:24, 22 February 2017 (UTC)--

He apparently said "The monster is finished", and that was describing the sonata as a monster. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:33, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

If that is what "describe" means, fine. The German "beschreiben" would not be used for one funny label attached to it ;) - a Beschreibung" is a lengthy detailed description. Learning --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:41, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps "au point" => "done"? DS (talk) 18:19, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Sorry but that's even more boring than "not bad", imho, on top of being unsourced. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:15, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Trying again, and I'd really like to mention the violinist without whom we would not have the piece, and who died too soon:

ALT4: ~~... that although Francis Poulenc disliked "the violin in the singular", he wrote a "monster" of a Violin Sonata for Ginette Neveu?~~ --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:01, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

I can't understand the first sentence of the style section. I don't care for ALT4 which I find confusing. Here's another idea: Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:35, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

ALT5: ~~... that Francis Poulenc composed his Violin Sonata for Ginette Neveu, and accompanired him on the piano at the premier?~~

Sorry, no. Him? Her. Why let go of the monster? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:35, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

The article needs a copyedit by someone who understands the French in the sources and can better express the sense of the phrases in English. I've made a few edits where the intent was obvious from a musical standpoint, but there are many places where I can't see the sources yet the prose is clearly problematic. The reference section is also highly confusing, with three sets of numbering for no reason that I can discern. As it stands now, this article is not ready for the main page. One comment about all those quotes about the sonata being used for hooks here: the Schmidt volume has a longer quote from Poulenc, with a full sentence before the excerpt given in the article; from that, it was clear that Poulenc was talking about finishing the draft of the sonata, not the final version, which was why he was beginning the [final] realization (version) of the work. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:12, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank for looking in detail and improving! My French is limited (see above), but I will call for help, beginning with LouisAlain, I also have a Canadian IP in mind, and the project. Please note that I only nominated, I was added as contributor by the reviewer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:22, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

In the first years of the 20th-century, a plane or a car engine was au point when all difficulties had been overcome and said engine was reliable and ready to be used as such. There was no need to "complicate" things with pointless complexities. In Poulenc's example, La sonate est au point means it may not be entirely finished with not one single note to change but basically the whole work had been completed save some potential minor details.
Sorry Gerda, that may not be the anwswer you were expecting but for the time being I'm too weak to even stay half an hour in front of my computer. LouisAlain (talk) 20:32, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Best wishes for strength, and thank you! As pointed out above, Poulenc didn't say it about the sonata, but about his draft of it, which changes the meaning. - The IP friend clarified some more in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:08, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I hope I managed to simplify the references.

ALT6: ~~... that Francis Poulenc composed his Violin Sonata, because violinist Ginette Neveu insisted, and when she premiered it he played the piano part?~~ --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:09, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

ALT6a: ... that Francis Poulenc composed his Violin Sonata at the insistence of violinist Ginette Neveu, and played the piano part when she premiered it?

Suggesting ALT6a as a variant wording of ALT6 that I think is smoother, and pinging Cwmhiraeth to see whether she's still interesting in pursuing this review; if not, I'll add the "review again" icon. I note that Smerus did a copyedit yesterday, which did improve matters, and Gerda did good work with the references; however, I'm still quite puzzled by the "at best, useless, at worst mediocre" phrase characterizing the sonata, since it seems counterintuitive: to me, "useless" is far more damning than "mediocre". What exactly does the Machart source say that leads to this paraphrase? (Even a quote of the original passage in French would help determine its intent.) BlueMoonset (talk) 16:49, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

I would be happy to complete the review if Gerda pings me when she has sorted out that point. The sentence could be rewritten as "The sonata was judged harshly by critics: some said that it was mediocre and others that it was useless." Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:04, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Cwmhiraeth I boldly commented out the two adjectives (in French "inutile" and "mediocre"), - as I can't verify them as someone's opinion (nor "some") and believe the article can live without them. The ALT is fine. Thanks to Smerus! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:45, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

This is now ready to go with ALT6a. I have struck the other hooks. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:02, 25 March 2017 (UTC)