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Template:Did you know nominations/Sayyidat Nisa al-Alamin

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Yoninah (talk) 00:04, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
Rejected; disputed tag added to page

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Sayyidat Nisa al-Alamin edit

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Created/expanded by Ali Ahwazi (talk). Self-nominated at 10:27, 11 March 2018 (UTC).

  • New enough, long enough, well referenced, no close paraphrasing seen in online English-language sources. No QPQ needed for first-time nominator.
  • However, the article needs a copyedit for an English-language readership. It is unclear why the article begins with the section "Al-'Alamin" or what this section is coming to tell us. The rest of the writing is written in an unencyclopedic manner and is hard to understand, like:

Besides, it is quoted that Muhammad said “Fatimah is the leader of the ladies of paradise”, then it was asked of Imam Jafar al-Sadiq that “Is Fatimah the best lady of her time?” then he mentioned Mary as the best lady of her time, and Fatimah as the best lady of the paradise since start till end of the world. Meanwhile, many famous Shia scholars among Shaikh Tusi have quoted such high title(s) of Fatimah in their books.

  • I suggest you ask at WP:GOCE for help in bringing this article up to English-language standards. Yoninah (talk) 22:53, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
I reviewed the references a bit and it doesn't seem very satisfactory. Especially the Sunni section, it cherrypicks several opinions of individual Sunni scholars (who might not even use the exact term as far as I can see), and then use those to support the generic statement that "Sunni Islam considers Fatimah as Sayyidat Nisa al-Alamin". Many of the citation are primary (using primary texts from centuries ago) and might not necessarily reflect the opinion of the Sunni community as a whole. HaEr48 (talk) 07:04, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Yoninah, HaEr48, have subsequent edits dealt with the issues you raised, or are there still issues that need to be addressed? BlueMoonset (talk) 04:59, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
  • @BlueMoonset: To be honest I'm still not satisfied with the Sunni section. The references seem to be cherrypicked and not very encyclopedic. There are a lot of WP:WEASEL wording such as "there are quotations from famous Sunni scholar" or " There are also similar narration(s) from Sunni sources", cited to either questionable source or very fringe books. If this is a title that mainstream Sunni use, surely the author should be able to find a more mainstream citation? Therefore, I doubt the suitability of including Sunni in the hook, or even in the article. No comment on the Shia part, because I'm not familiar with Shia sources. HaEr48 (talk) 04:41, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • There have been no edits to the article since April, and despite the recent comments by BlueMoonset and HaEr48 in May, there has been no response from the nominator either here or on their talk page. I will leave one final message at the nominator's talk page, but if there is no response within the next few days, this will be marked for closure. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:15, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
I eliminated the section of "Al-'Alamin" from the mentioned article. Besides, I edited/removed some texts of it --in order to make it more appropriate in an encyclopedic manner. Additionally, hopefully I'll pay more attention to edit it --especially in "Sunni narrations" section in the next days/weeks. Finally, I appreciate profit mentioned recommendations. Ali Ahwazi (talk) 13:47, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Ali Ahwazi, your recent edits have left the article below the minimum 1500 prose characters required for DYK; it is currently at 1402 prose characters. You will need to bring it back above this minimum, and since the nomination has been open for over three months now, I don't think we can wait "weeks" for that to happen; please try to make the necessary improvements in the next seven days or so. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:30, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • The article is now over 1500 characters. @HaEr48: are you satisfied with the Sunni section? Otherwise I will fail this nomination. Yoninah (talk) 21:34, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
  • HaEr48 has not edited since June 30, and has not responded to multiple requests for comment on the article expansion. As such, a new reviewer is requested to check if the article now meets the DYK guidelines. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:38, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Sorry for the delay: I'm a bit occupied in real life, and don't currently have reliable internet access. I'm still very skeptical about this nomination. The main assertion in the Sunni section ("Sunni Islam considers Fatimah (Muhammad's daughter and Ali's wife) as Sayyidat Nisa al-Alamin") on which the hook also depends are cited to obscure items (books with no link/authorlink/ISBN/etc.) and a website of unclear authority. Surely if this is an accepted Sunni view, more mainstream sources can be found? I'll also drop a message in the WP:ISLAM talk page to see if other folks can provide info or more sources.
  • Just to provide context to other editors: the degree of reverence for the members of Muhammad family (such as Fatimah, the subject here) is sometimes a source of tension between Shia and Sunni Islam. Sunnis, while respecting the family, are typically wary of the excessive (according to Sunnis) reverence often given by Shias. This is why I'd like to be careful about the hook and the Sunni section. Without solid references this might appear controversial. HaEr48 (talk) 02:49, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Coming here from WT:ISLAM. I have a few concerns from a linguistic point of view. First, the Arabic-script name suggests the transliteration is Sayyidat al-Nisa al-'Alamin, so either the original Arabic or the transliteration is incorrect. Next the translation: as far as I am aware, sayyidah means "mistress" or "lady" (as in a female lord), nisa is simply "women" (see Surah an-Nisa), and al-'Alamin means "worlds" according to most translations of Surah 1:1; no "all the women", no "of all times". I do not know how they got to the current (too) elaborate translation, but it might have to do with the source being a book translated by Iranians, i.e. non-native speakers of Arabic/English. It would be nice if you could find a better source for its translation, preferably written by someone proficient in both Arabic and English. --HyperGaruda (talk) 14:56, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Actually, nevermind that anymore, I found a better and more neutral encyclopedic entry to address my concerns. --HyperGaruda (talk) 15:22, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
  • What I still find concerning though, is the synthesis of multiple sources to imply that the entirety of Shi'ism/Sunnism attributes this title to Fatimah, although only a select few literally say this in-text. Most other references only say that Fatimah is called sayyidat nisa' al-'alamin, while no explicit link is given between the reference being Shi'i/Sunni and it attributing the title to Fatimah. A case of WP:OVERCITE if you will. --HyperGaruda (talk) 15:57, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
The article doesn't adequately explain the subject. It is written from the point of view of someone who already understands the subject. Szzuk (talk) 14:09, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
  • It appears that there are multiple outstanding issues with the article, and that concerns have been raised on how the article reflects Islamic points of view. I will leave a message on the nominator's talk page here and give them time to respond to the issues, otherwise this will be marked for closure. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:06, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
  • The nominator has not edited since earlier this month, and has been unable to respond to recent comments left on this nomination page. Considering the outstanding issues that multiple editors have raised, and that the primary contributor is not editing, this nomination is now marked for closure as stale. If another editor wishes to adopt this nomination so that it can proceed, they are free to do so. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
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