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Template:Did you know nominations/Lula Mysz-Gmeiner

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 00:27, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

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Lula Mysz-Gmeiner edit

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Lula Mysz-Gmeiner
Lula Mysz-Gmeiner

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 19:52, 14 August 2018 (UTC).

  • New, long enough, within policy (the PD copyright templating needed a bit of supplementing at Commons), QPQ done. The red links for two pianists are acceptable for DYK. But the hook should be changed from plural "Lieder" to singular "Lied", since that's what the Meier source says. Also, the redirect from double-s Transsylvania is not so nice. I propose ALT1:
This would be ready with ALT1. Boud (talk) 22:23, 1 September 2018 (UTC) OK with ALT1? Boud (talk) 22:31, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the review and the changes to the commons! - While ALT1 is correct, it misses that several composers dedicated Lieder (plural) to her which she often premiered, - it sounds like exactly one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:46, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
ps: {{ill}} links are no red links, and are accepted on any level of Wikipedia. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:48, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
For the plural: "Für ihre Liederabende arbeitete Lula Mysz-Gmeiner untter anderem mit Max Reger, Franz Schreker, Eduard Behm, Emil Mattiesen und Richard Strauss zusammen. Ersterer widmete ihr genau wie Emil Mattiesen mehrere Lieder. Lula Mysz-Gmeiner sang mehrere Uraufführungen ..." - So Reger and Matthiessen dedicated several songs to her, and she sang several premieres. - It happens that a different singer than the dedicatee sings the premiere, but I'd say rarely. To be safe we could say:
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:00, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • You're right that the red links are inter-language links - I didn't mean to say they're not normally accepted, but rather that DYK, GA, FA require successively higher standards, and I gave a link to WP:DYKNOT which says that red links are fine in DYK - which presumably means that tl:ill, which are a good step better than red links, are even more acceptable. :) Boud (talk) 10:23, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Regarding the assumption that a a dedicatee sings a premiere, or even that she necessarily sings a song dedicated to her: even though this is a reasonable educated guess, odd things do sometimes happen (e.g. a singer might suddenly die before s/he gets a chance to sing the song; might have a personal crisis or political disagreement with the composer and refuse to sing the songs). Maybe you can point to a specific place in Meier that justifies ALT2, but for the moment I propose ALT3. I removed "and others" because this is bit vague - WP:WEASEL doesn't state this particular example, though the WP:WHATPLACE subsection comes close in terms of what rather than who. I don't think putting a tl:ill would look good in the DYK hook, so including Emil Mattiesen there does not seem like a good option to me.
How about ALT3? Adding the reasonable (but AFAIK not strictly sourced as a fact) expectation that she sung all of the Lieder dedicated to her is not really likely to convince more people to read and/or edit the article... Boud (talk) 10:23, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Independently, any objections to removing ", before 1904" from the figure caption? It's sourced, but it sounds a bit odd. There's no default expectation to show photos of deceased people as they were in their oldest age prior to dying, even if that seems to be common (e.g. Einstein). Boud (talk) 10:23, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
ALT3 is fine with me, I just didn't want to single out Reger as he was "my topic" in 2016. I say it's fine also to receive no more guideline abbreviations ;) - I thought that any date in the caption would be better than no date, but let the style of dress and hair say so. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Guideline abbreviations avoid having to re-explain what other people have already explained quite nicely and more carefully :). Anyway, good to go with consensus on ALT3. Boud (talk) 13:55, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Returned to prep for further consideration of hook, with particular reference to the term "lieder". Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
I am not sure I understand what you mean by "term lieder". Every now and then, we use "art songs", but "lieder" is more specific for the German ones, as mélodies is for the French. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:14, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
I have changed the wording in the article and as long as you are happy with that change, ALT3 can be used. I will leave someone else to promote the hook, and they can choose whether to use the image or not. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:54, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
I am happy with the change, thank for a constructive solution. If I had more time, I'd do the same for Strauss, and Matthiesen ... - She must have been quite extraordinary to have inspired so many creative minds. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:30, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Did you read the nomination, "She must have been quite extraordinary to have inspired so many creative minds."? Did you see that this was a compromise? A cheap hook for all could be that she was the teacher and mother-in-law of the Nazi dream tenor, another, quirky, that she trained Elisabeth Schwarzkopf wrong, -- but I am here to say something about her singing. Please let me. - On our national holiday, and regular concert day, with company and with a cold, thinking of the amiable dwellings ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:04, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
What about a hook based on the approved hook, but focusing only on one or the other? Say, instead of mentioning both Alto Rhapsody and the Lieder, why not a hook only focusing on Alto Rhapsody or only focusing on Reger's Lieder for her? But honestly I still have doubts if the first suggestion could work as the importance of Alto Rhapsody isn't immediately clear to non-classical music fans. Or perhaps, as you mentioned, maybe a hook about Mysz-Gmeiner's links to her students might work as well. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:28, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
We need Lieder, and better many composers than only one, which was a compromise. The well-known Alto Rhapsody with the well-known Philharmonic was meant to add something people are more familiar with, but should not be the only thing said about her who was known for Lieder internationally. - Off to singing, which me luck with my slightly damaged alto voice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:21, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Still with a head full of Brahms, new day. Please help me. I have little problem finding one cute thing about a short composition, but when it comes to the rich life of a creative person, I feel that one cute things is enough. No link to a student, please, it's distracting. I didn't even want a link to a specific composer. She inspired several of her contemporaries to write lieder for her, and to accompany her in performance, and I know no other person about whom that could be said. Can you word it? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:20, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
ps: if possible, still mentioning Transsylvania and teaching. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:21, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
It's been that long because it was pulled from prep but not returned to the noms page, until I noticed and did it. Last thing was asking YOU for help. I can't look right now. How can we say that she was a great lieder singer who worked with composers such as Max Reger and Richard Strauss - the big names at the time! - who wrote for her and accompanied her, - in 200 chars? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:58, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Narutolovehinata5, no help yet, so I try again:
ALT4: ... that Lula Mysz-Gmeiner (pictured), a contralto and influential voice teacher from Transylvania, performed lieder accompanied by composers such as Max Reger and Richard Strauss?
- letting people guess that her contemporaries also wrote for her. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
ALT5: ... that recordings by 19th c Transylvanian contralto Lula Mysz-Gmeiner (pictured) of Schubert lieder can still be heard in Living History recordings. (Ihre Aufnahmen von Schubert-, Schumann und Brahmsliedern u.a. können als Teil der Reihe „Lebendige Vergangenheit“ auch heute noch erworben werden.") HouseOfChange (talk) 11:30, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
For my own sanity I'm copying Narutolovehinata5's objection that accompanied pulling it from prep: "Unfortunately, I can see several problems with this hook. Firstly, this hook is too long and seems to lack focus: what is the main subject of the article: Mysz-Gmeiner performing with the Berlin Philharmonic, or her having a Lieder dedicated to her? Secondly, I am going to be frank here: this hook does not appeal to a broad audience as it seems to target mainly classical music fans rather than regular Wikipedia readers who may or may not be familiar with the topic matter. A reader might ask: "what's the importance of performing with the Berlin Philharmoni?c" or "who is Max Reger, and how is he important?". A new hook is probably needed here, one that appeals to the widest audience possible. Pinging nominator Gerda Arendt, reviewers @Boud and Cwmhiraeth:, and promoter Yoninah. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:10, 3 October 2018 (UTC)" valereee (talk) 11:31, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for ALT5, Vanamonde, but that could be said about many who recorded early. Working with the most famous composers of her time - I don't know any other. I try to be specific. What about ALT4? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:36, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt The article says only that Reger wrote lieder for her, doesn't mention that the other lieder she sang were also written for her? valereee (talk) 11:43, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

:: ALT6: ... that Lula Mysz-Gmeiner (pictured), a contralto and influential voice teacher from Transylvania, performed lieder written for her by Max Reger and other prominent contemporaries?valereee (talk) 11:52, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

To this person unfamiliar with this music, the fact they were written for her is perhaps more interesting to an unfamiliar audience than that she was accompanied by them? valereee (talk) 11:52, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, but unfortunately you are right about Strauss, so I worded ALT4 carefully, avoiding that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:55, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
ps: I actually think the "performing with composers" is more interesting, - or people might think the composers sat somewhere distant, just writing. Making known that these men were also accomplished lieder accompanists is an extra ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:01, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt My view is that the hook has ONE job: get the casual reader (with luck including other editors) interested enough to click to read the whole article. We can't expect the hook to also correct possible misconceptions about how composers work. Yes, it's very interesting that she was also accompanied by the composers, and to classical music fans that might be more important and therefore more interesting. But to the general public, having a song written specifically for you is perhaps more likely to make someone think, "Huh, what was so great about her that someone would write a song for her?" and click to the link. In the interest of brevity of the hook, would tweaked alt 6 now work for you? valereee (talk) 13:31, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, no. Reger was prominent at the time, but I think no more, so other doesn't work. I seriously think about having this rule changed which asks that the whole hook has to appeal to the general public, thinking that if one bit does, the rest could cater to those who may know that bit already, - in her case "influential teacher". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:53, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
The present [15:53, 23 November 2018 (UTC)] version of tweaked ALT 6 looks fine to me. Boud (talk) 15:53, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt will it work now? valereee (talk) 16:15, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes, that's fine. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:24, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

with current ALT 6 Boud Narutolovehinata5? valereee (talk) 18:20, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

I am fine with ALT6. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:16, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
The present ALT6 is OK by me. Boud (talk) 01:06, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
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