Template:Did you know nominations/Keith White (disabled yachtsman)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 4meter4 (talk) 22:43, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Keith White (yachtsman)

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White aboard the Marathon leaving port in Dartmouth, Devon in the morning of 25 October 2015 to start his solo attempt

• ... that Keith White set out on 25 October 2015 to make a literally single handed solo sailing global circumnavigation. White has only the use of one arm and hopes to be the first disabled sailor to do it?

• ALT1:... that one armed sailor Keith White set out on 25 October 2015 to be the first disabled person to sail solo round the world. Single handed sailing taken to a new level?
• ALT2:... that Keith White is going for the hat trick of disabled yachting firsts by attempting a solo global circumnavigation in 2015/16. White only has the use of one arm?
• ALT3: ... that Keith White (disabled yachtsman) set out on 25 October 2015 to make a literally single handed solo sailing global circumnavigation?
• ALT4: ... that Keith White sailed solo round the UK, solo transatlantic, and is now sailing solo round the world, literally single handed?
• ALT5: ... that yachtsman Keith White sailed solo round the UK, solo transatlantic, and is now sailing solo round the world, literally single handed?
• ALT6:... that yachtsman Keith White is going for the hat trick of disabled firsts by attempting a solo global circumnavigation in 2015/16. White only has the use of one arm
• ALT7: ... that yachtsman Keith White set out on 25 October 2015 to make a literally single-handed solo global circumnavigation?
• ALT8: ... that yachtsman Keith White set out on 25 October 2015 to make a literally single handed solo global circumnavigation. White has only the use of one arm and hopes to be the first disabled sailor to do it?
• ALT9: ... that yachtsman Keith White set out on 25 October 2015 to make a literally single handed solo global circumnavigation in Marathon (pictured)? White has only the use of one arm and hopes to be the first disabled sailor to do it
• Reviewed Pick Me!
• Reviewed War Machine (film)
• Comment There is limited use, as allowed under policy, of White's own web site under WP:PRIMARY and/or WP:SELFPUB to verify simple facts not susceptible to potential challenge.
• Comment Please consider adding the picture of the boat, the Marathon to any of the hooks in a relevant position. I have used ALT9 as a possible example

Created/expanded by Timtrent (talk). Self-nominated at 13:59, 25 October 2015 (UTC).

• Article is long enough and new enough when nominated. QPQ is done. There are no issues with close paraphrasing and all wikipedia policies are followed. The information in all of the hooks is found cited in the article to online references. I personally like Alt 1 minus the second sentence which I have provided here: Alt1b: ... that one armed sailor Keith White set out on 25 October 2015 to be the first disabled person to sail solo round the world? Best.4meter4 (talk) 06:45, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

• Note: have struck original hook, ALT8, and ALT9 for all being over the 200-character maximum (including spaces) for hooks. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:38, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

• I'm promoting this, but replacing "be" with "attempt to become" in the hook, as the circumnavigation is still in progress. Alt1c: ... that one armed sailor Keith White set out on 25 October 2015 to attempt to become the first disabled person to sail solo round the world? The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 17:43, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Reopening following concerns over hook accuracy and thus referencing. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:25, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

There can be no objection to reopening to double check matters, but please let us understand the concerns? Fiddle Faddle 22:38, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

AH, found it. I see no objection to

ALT10: ... that Keith White, a one-armed sailor, set out on 25 October 2015 in an attempt to become the first disabled person to sail nonstop solo around the world?

the key change is the addition of the word "nonstop".

Ae we able to proceed? Fiddle Faddle 22:50, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• I agree that the addition of the word "nonstop" solves the problem. ALT10 hook ref verified and cited inline. ALT10 good to go.
• By the way, I think this page should be moved to Keith White (yachtsman). It seems demeaning to be identified by your disability. Yoninah (talk) 23:27, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• White identifies himself that way Yoninah, which is the reason I chose that article title. I don't feel strongly about it either way. He's rather proud of being a disabled yachtsman. Fiddle Faddle 23:33, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Interesting. Then everything's fine. Yoninah (talk) 23:34, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• DYK checklist template

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Passes DYK checklist.

• Review Good to go! New article, timely nominated. Meets core policies and guidelines, and in particular: is neutral; cites sources with inline citations; is free of close paraphrasing issues, copyright violations and plagiarism. DYK nomination was timely and article is easily long enough. Every paragraph is cited. No copyright violations or too close paraphrasing. Earwig's copy violation detector: Keith White (disabled yachtsman) report gives it a clean bill. Hook ALT 10 is hooky enough, I think, and relates directly to the essence of the article. It is supported by these sources: Hodgetts, Laura (15 October 2015). "Disabled yachtsman to embark on round-the-world unassisted voyage – Practical Boat Owner". Practical Boat Owner. Retrieved 24 October 2015.Stocker, Theo (16 October 2015). "Disabled yachtsman aims to sail solo around the world". Yachting Monthly. Retrieved 24 October 2015. In passing, I would note that the "nonstop" part of the intended circumnavigation failed when the ship suffered catastrophic equipment failure, and had to put in. But Mr. White did leave with the intent alluded to in the hook line. In any event, it is interesting, decently neutral, and appropriately cited. QPQ done. I have no opinion about renaming of the article: I would go with however Mr. White self identifies. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Disabled or not, he obviously has the combination of skill and the bollocks to pull off a circumnavigation, provided his luck holds. He is well rid of the non-stop part of this, and the continuous temporal part of the equation makes this inherently a more risky proposition. Nevertheless and as is, it is a massive undertaking with grave risks. I wish him safe passage. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:20, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

NO WAY. How many times do you plan on getting it wrong? I posted a link to [1] and said it in my reason for rejecting the previous hook; "And of course there are others, like Vincent "Vinny" Lauwers, who won a Laureus Award (more or less the most prestigious sporting award in the world) in 2001 for sailing around the world solo, non-stop and unassisted, as a disabled person (paraplegic)." Adding "non stop" to the rejected hook doesn't solve the problem at all. I guess this DYK breaks the record for most proposed hooks, but enough is enough. Just drop it. Fram (talk) 08:01, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• What was wrong with ALT7? It's been struck, but no-one seems to have raised an objection. Gatoclass (talk) 08:46, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Indeed. I like ALT7 too. It solves the dispute by not claiming a first and the single-handed pun is quite good. Andrew D. (talk) 09:05, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• There is a technical aspect here. There is an official start line for circumnavigations, in the Western Approaches of the English Channel, a whole Atlantic Ocean away from the Southern Ocean. This is explicit tin the article. Without detracting in any way from the enormous achievement of the gentleman who went from Australia to Australia "just" round the southern ocean route, the geometry of a sphere will show you that the voyage south through the Atlantic and back north after the Southern Ocean sector adds substantially to the trip. Looking at timetables for ordinary displacement yachts, seven months for the gentleman from Australia is eminently reasonable, as was White's planned 10 moths for his now no longer non stop circumnavigation.

I see the difference as important, as would anyone undertaking the trip. Three further months is a huge percentage of extra challenge, some 42% extra. We are certainly comparing apples with apples, but I think we are comparing a cooking apple with all of its wonderful qualities, with an eating apple which has entirely different and lovely ones.

As proposer I am happy with any of the hooks the team here proposes/accepts. I am equally happy if you, after proper consideration, something we are having now, decide that this will not fly. Whether White is unique or not ought not to be the argument. The decision, surely is whether this is interesting enough for the main page.. Fiddle Faddle 11:07, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

As I have responded on my talk page, this is not entirely correct. Lauwers made a South-North-South roundtrip, White plans to make a North-South-North roundtrip. The time he needs for it is not relevant either, the distance could be an argument, but I have seen no figures for the planned distance of White's trip. In the end, all of this doesn't matter one bit of course, we have to present something that is a) sourced and b) correct, and the rejected hooks were sourced but not correct, while the distinction Timtrent makes may be correct (somewhat) but isn't sourced (a source correctly stating what exactly is the supposed "first" White set out for, where we can't find other reliable sources debunking that claim). Fram (talk) 12:12, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• So how about removing the "first" and just stating the fact:
• ALT11: ... that Keith White, a one-armed sailor, set out on 25 October 2015 in an attempt to sail nonstop solo around the world? Yoninah (talk) 12:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

While there are no obvious issues with that one, I wonder what the point is of such an "announcement" if we already know that the attempt failed (the nonstop part)? Fram (talk) 12:33, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I think to sole point of any DYK is to interest the reader who arrives at the main page in diving deeper into the encyclopaedia. The question is, "does this do that?" if not "Can it be improved?" Fiddle Faddle 12:35, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Or we could go with his crossing the Atlantic both ways? Which he did. And which avoids the present enterprise entirely. We know he crossed the Atlantic both ways. It does not have the 'asterisk' of his circumnavigation of the UK and Ireland. The doughnut here is to get the DYK, and niffnawing over wrong details is counterproductive. The doughnut here is to get the DYK, and niffnawing over wrong details is 'the whole', which is counterproductive. It will beget problems and dissent.

We should find something that is factually correct, and not just hype or wishes. 'If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.' 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:13, 3 December 2015 (UTC)7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• ALT12: ... that the Guiness Book of World Records refused to list Keith White (disabled yachtsman)'s literally single-handed anticlockwise transit around the UK and Ireland?

Here is the source: Tweddell, Louise (13 October 2005). "Record book snubs one-armed sailor". This Is London. Retrieved 24 October 2015.

Or go with ALT7, which is 'very punny' and avoids all of the numerous objections. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:56, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

To put the "firsts" in this case in perspective and to urge for caution with any "first" or "record" hooks here, I offer Gerry Hughes (sailor)[2], a deaf (i.e. disabled) person who sailed the world solo (but not nonstop) from Scotland (so not the "easy" or "short" south route) in 2012-2013. He sailed solo around the British Isles in 1981 as well, though I don't know whether it was clockwise or not[3]. In any case, the Guinness doesn't list every "first" because the list of possible permutations is endless. Fram (talk) 15:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

And they denied the claim for that reason, i.e., 'too complicated.' He was going 'against the prevailing wind', but that makes our hook too complicated, too. In any event, I did not use the word "first" and made a simple statement of fact about Guiness without ascribing any reason. I also used the British 'anticlockwise' and managed to put in the phrase 'literally single-handed.' 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:13, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I think ALT7 is a better hook, not only because it is simpler but because it puts the emphasis on the highly unusual "single-handed" aspect. Other than that, I think the article should be moved to "Keith White (yachtsman)" per MOS. Gatoclass (talk) 16:17, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

If I have any influence at all, as the main contributing editor to the article and as proposer of this DYK, I like ALT 7, feel it meets all concerns, and reflects the spirit of the man and the article. I am placing this above User:7&6=thirteen's review in case material after it in some technical manner prejudices the acceptance. Fiddle Faddle 17:49, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

With regard to the article name, I an 51:49 in favour of its remaining as it is now. Fiddle Faddle 17:54, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• Review Good to go on ALT7! Short and sweet. KISS.

I would ordinarily say per WP:MOS to change the title to Keith White (yachtsman), although the subject's self identification may militate otherwise. I don't know that this is an issue that has to be resolved at WP:DYK, but if it is then somebody just ought to do it, one way or the other. This conversation has gone on so long that it is now 'pregnant with possibilities.' 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• More support for ALT7. The issues with the record are clearly too intricate/subtle for a one line hook. Better to keep it simple. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:09, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• MSGJ has moved both the article and this nomination template to remove the word "disabled"—the latter is not supposed to be done, but since it was I've just finished cleaning up here including updating the remaining active hooks and fixing the DYKmake template. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• And now GeoffreyT2000 has had WP:RM undo the template move, meaning that I've had to fix the template yet again. This really didn't help: template moves should generally not be done because the template changes needed are far more significant, but if they have been done and the template has been repaired, then a move back causes just as many problems as the original move did. Please do not move this template again. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:40, 4 December 2015 (UTC)