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Template:Did you know nominations/Egypt at the 1906 Intercalated Games

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:54, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

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Egypt at the 1906 Intercalated Games edit

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5x expanded by Canadian Paul (talk). Self-nominated at 18:49, 18 October 2016 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: — Yellow Dingo (talk) 10:05, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

  • Returned from prep for better hook. Comment at WT:DYK:
  • The blurb talks about an athlete who is so non-notable that he doesn't have a Wikipedia article. Can I therefore enquire as to how this would be of interest to "a broad audience"? The Rambling Man (talk) 09:25, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Perhaps a hook could be developed around the team or the games themselves. Yoninah (talk) 10:07, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Personally I find the idea of an Italian competing for Egypt in two completely different sports at a large international festival to be quite interesting, as did the reviewer who approved the hook, and I believe a broad audience would be interested as well. If this community disagrees, then I respect that that is the way Wikipedia works and I'm happy to move on; it's not a big deal. I have no additional hook, so if no one else is willing to offer one, then this nomination can be closed as failed. I note, however, that an article on this athlete would pass WP:ATHLETE as having "participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level" (the IOC may not recognize them, but they were the top international multi-sport tournament in 1906), so Colombani is notable by Wikipedia's standards, even if no one has yet created his article. Canadian Paul 15:41, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
  • An initial response, how does anyone know this was an Italian representing a version of Egypt? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:17, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
  • ALT1: ... that two athletes marched under the Egyptian banner at the first-ever Olympic opening ceremony in 1906? Yoninah (talk) 23:36, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
  • ALT1 is cited inline, Turkish language source accepted AGF. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:21, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
    • Responding in the order of arrival: 1. Given his Italian-sounding name and the fact that he competed for club whose name is in Italian, I would say it's a fair assumption; at the very least, I think we can agree that his name doesn't sound like an indigenous Egyptian one, which is what is hooky. 2. I have no objection to the hook, although others might find it contentious that the opening ceremony is referred to as "Olympic", since even though it was considered as such at the time, it is no longer considered as such by the IOC (although it is by practically every Olympic historian). 3. The source for the new hook can be verified online and in English through source #2 at the end of the sentence (the Turkish source is just to cite the date of the founding of the Ottoman Olympic Committee, which in turn explains why the banner was Egyptian and not Ottoman, the de jure owner of Egypt). Canadian Paul 14:06, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
  • @Canadian Paul: so does this work better for you:
  • ALT1a: ... that two athletes marched under the Egyptian banner at what historians consider the first-ever Olympic opening ceremony in 1906? Yoninah (talk) 19:13, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Might want to swap "at what historians consider" with "what contemporary sources considered" or "what was then considered", as that's backed up by the second citation as well. Canadian Paul 21:09, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
  • OK:
  • ALT2: ... that two athletes marched under the Egyptian banner at what contemporary sources considered the first-ever Olympic opening ceremony in 1906? Yoninah (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Works for me now. Thanks! Canadian Paul 13:29, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
  • ALT2 is acceptable, the hook facts being cited inline. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:23, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Pulled from queue and reopened, as discussed at WT:DYK. No evidence that two athletes marched in the opening ceremony, and no evidence that contemporary sources discussed the opening ceremony as given (the source indicates that contemporary sources considered it to be proper Olympics,, no claim about their opinion of the opening ceremony is given). Fram (talk) 11:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

This is why I was hesitant to go this direction in the first place. I think the concerns are valid. I say we go with the original hook, which was pulled only because one individual did not find it interesting enough. Or if consensus is that it is indeed not interesting enough, then just close it as failed. All of our time could be spent better elsewhere on the project. Canadian Paul 13:07, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
If it was an Italian representing Egypt, I would find that interesting. But, having had a quick look and finding this source, it appears to me that the team was Egyptian, not Italian. But, perhaps re-drafting the original as "that cyclist XXX also represented Egypt at XXX in Greco-Roman wrestling?" - it makes the incongruity of the sports clear, because a cyclist's physique and a wrestler's physique strike me as pretty different. EdChem (talk) 13:26, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
I guess the problem is we don't know anything about Colombani other than his name and club sound Italian. We don't know where he was born, what citizenship he held, who his parents were etc. etc. to even debate the question of his nationality. But I do like your reformatting, which would (if I understand correctly) read something like:
Canadian Paul 13:47, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Yes, but I'd add links, like:
I don't know as I haven't checked, but you may need to add a reference from Wrestling at the 1906 Intercalated Games to establish that the wrestling Colombani competed in was Greco-Roman. If this is a way forward, though, I suggest you ping TRM, since he objected in the first place, or post a proposal at WT:DYK and get consensus that this is suitable, that way it is difficult to pull unilaterally. EdChem (talk) 14:01, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Source for Greco-Roman is in the one used for the original hook, so that should be no problem. I'll start by pinging @The Rambling Man: and seeing where it goes from there. Thanks for your efforts! Canadian Paul 14:06, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

You said above ... Personally I find the idea of an Italian competing for Egypt ... which is definitely interesting. Why not add "Italian" before cyclist, say, to really make a different and catchy hook? The Rambling Man (talk) 15:00, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: What is your view of ALT3a, assuming that Colombani was not Italian? EdChem (talk) 01:48, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
My personal view is not much different from before. It was extremely common to see sportspeople represent two different sports, and my original point stands, this individual is actually non-notable per Wikipedia's policies it would seem, so why would a broad audience care if represented Egypt in more than one event in a games they've never heard of that took place more than 100 years ago? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:41, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
And for the avoidance of doubt, are we now suggesting that the nominator's comment that I should have immediately found this original DYK interesting because an Italian represented Egypt is actually without any foundation in truth? The Rambling Man (talk)
Actually, I commented that I, as well as another reviewer, found it interesting, and that potentially a broader audience might find it interesting as well, but that it was up to the community to make a decision on that last point. Nowhere did I suggest that you personally should have found the original hook interesting, immediately or otherwise, for any reason. Canadian Paul 02:55, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
My question was related to your claim that the athlete was Italian. That appears to have been a false assertion, right? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:52, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
  • The original hook was ok. The 3a version seems too long and loses impact by splitting up the contrast of cycling and wrestling. And I'm not sure that the athlete's name is needed. Please try the following. Andrew D. (talk) 22:51, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
  • (ALT3b): ... that, to represent Egypt at the 1906 Intercalated Games, an athlete competed in both cycling and Greco-Roman wrestling?
    No, that reads very peculiarly indeed and, if anything, is a downgrade on the original hook. If you want to truncate all the detail out of it, it becomes "an Egyptian athlete competed in both cycling and Greco-Roman wrestling in the 1906 Intercalated Games". The Rambling Man (talk) 22:55, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
    The idea is indeed to focus upon the point of interest which is the contrast between two quite different sports. The name of the athlete does not seem important and so is best omitted. By cutting out extraneous detail, the reader is likely to get to the point more easily. Andrew D. (talk) 23:16, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
  • ALT3b is awkwardly worded in my view, and should not be used. I am proposing an ALT3c based on TRM's suggestion but tweaked based on the name of the article
  • I do not think this is the best option, I prefer ALT3a because I think emphasising that Colombani was principally a cyclist makes the hookiness of the wrestling at the end more interesting – but ultimately that's an issue for whoever reviews the hooks.
  • I am describing him as "principally a cyclist" rather than "principally a wrestler" based on the impression I have from sources and searches that he had a more extensive cycling career. In any event, he logically was either more a cyclist or more a wrestler and so the contrast is valid whichever descriptor comes first.
  • I started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#Intercalated Games Athletes and I am not certain that TRM's assertion that Colombani is not notable would reflect consensus (as Canadian Paul has noted earlier), though I do agree there is little I have seen to say about him based on online sources. If the name is that concerning, an alternative would be:
  • @The Rambling Man: I think it might be fairer to Canadian Paul to reflect that he made an assumption based on a name and a team name that sounded Italian, and was mistaken. I doubt he set out to deceive you or anyone else, as his post early in this thread made clear that it was an assumption ("Given his Italian-sounding name and the fact that he competed for club whose name is in Italian, I would say it's a fair assumption; at the very least, I think we can agree that his name doesn't sound like an indigenous Egyptian one, which is what is hooky") and that the sound of the name added to hookiness, in his opinion. Neither he nor anyone else has actually proposed a hook that pointed at Italian heritage. In fact, when I also noted that an Italian representing Egypt would be interesting but that I doubted it from the sources I found, Canadian Paul said "I guess the problem is we don't know anything about Colombani other than his name and club sound Italian. We don't know where he was born, what citizenship he held, who his parents were etc. etc. to even debate the question of his nationality." – which makes absolutely clear that he did not claim to have sources to support his assumption. For the record, I don't believe that there is any reliable evidence so far that Colombani = Italian is true, but a stated assumption is not the same as a claim / assertion of truth.
  • In any case, I am clearly involved on this nomination, but my opinion is that the contrast is sufficiently interesting, and that the question of wording (with several alternatives available) is for the reviewer to consider. I have unstruck ALT0, and there are ALT3 + variants proposed. ALT1s were struck based on Fram's valid objection, and on that basis I have struck ALT2. I am deliberately leaving a gap for any responses below this comment and above my call for a new reviewer. Regards. EdChem (talk) 00:25, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
  • New review needed. ALT2 was pulled by Fram and his objection is valid and unchallenged, so another hook is needed if this nomination is to be successful. ALT0 was pulled based on TRM's objection to interestingness, but the above discussion needs evaluation for consensus on that objection. If consensus supports promotion, a new reviewer is needed toconsider the best alternative(s) from ALT0, ALT3 (has been changed by the nominator to match 3a, but with fewer links), ALT3a, ALT3b, ALT3c, and ALT3d... plus any others which might emerge subsequent to this posting. All the current proposals are based on the same facts, which appear to me to be undisputed. For convenience, I have collected the variations together:
The question of what wikilinks to include beyond the bolded link is also open. EdChem (talk) 00:25, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to help move this nomination along. I came across this page which indicates that the cycling club was Egyptian, not Italian. And the Sports-Reference.com page which we're relying on for Colombani's statistics lists his "original name" in Arabic. So I don't think we can speculate at all on his nationality. I think we should go with ALT3a, which is the nominator's choice, and which has appropriate links added by EdChem. I appreciate TRM's knowledge of sports, but this is very hooky for people like me who aren't mavens. Let readers think his name is Italian, and click on it! ALT3a verified and cited inline. Rest of review per Yellow Dingo. ALT3a good to go. Yoninah (talk) 20:22, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
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