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Template:Did you know nominations/Coloman, King of Hungary; Béla II of Hungary

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PFHLai (talk) 16:18, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

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Coloman, King of Hungary, Béla II of Hungary edit

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Coloman depicted in János Thuróczy's Chronicle of the Hungarians

Improved to Good Article status by Borsoka (talk), Baffle gab1978 (talk). Nominated by 3family6 (talk) at 12:46, 17 June 2014 (UTC).

  • Hello. It can be hurtful to people with disabilities to imply the disability prevents them from succeeded at things not directly related to the disability. For example, it would be surprising to be blind and an expert archer, but less so to be a king. Would you consider rewording: ... that King Béla II of Hungary was blinded as a child per the orders of his uncle, King Coloman of Hungary (pictured)?--User:174.88.8.213 at 16:49, 25 June 2014
  • ALT 1... that King Coloman of Hungary (pictured) supposedly ordered his nephew, the future King Béla II of Hungary, to be castrated, only to have the soldier ordered to carry out the act instead castrate a dog?
  • If The Rambling Man or EEng wants to parse this for accuracy yet quirkiness, they can be my guest. Does the "supposedly" in here adequately indicate that the entire story of the castration, from the ordering to the soldier's actions, is not confirmed to be true?--¿3family6 contribs 17:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Gosh, I'm famous. Supposedly always sounds kinda highschool to me. How about:
ALT 2... that an account in the Illuminated Chronicle holds that King Coloman of Hungary (pictured) ordered the castration of his nephew, the future Béla II, but the soldier assigned the task brought him dog testicles instead?
For one account holds you might want the Illuminated Chronicle holds or maybe the Chronicon Pictum holds (but for the latter the article will need to import that name). Just some suggestions. EEng (talk) 17:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, that one works better.--¿3family6 contribs 17:57, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for taking my concerns seriously! I think your revision is more interesting as well.174.88.8.213 (talk) 17:56, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Your welcome, and welcome to Wikipedia!--¿3family6 contribs 17:59, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
By the way, is there a way that Matty.007 can get credit for the nomination of Béla II of Hungary as well?--¿3family6 contribs 17:59, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Let's ask Crisco 1492 -- he knows everything (about DYK anyway). I tried working in the blinding too, but too long. EEng (talk) 18:02, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind a credit, but I was only asking about being mentioned on here as writing the hook. No biggie either way really. Thanks, Matty.007 18:04, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Wait... this is a double nom so you get double hook space.

ALT 3 ... that an account in the Illuminated Chronicle holds that King Coloman of Hungary (pictured) blinded his brother and his nephew (the future Béla II) then ordered Béla castrated as well, but the soldier assigned the task disobeyed, bringing Coloman dog testicles as "proof" instead?

Someone will now say parens look bad; ignore them. EEng (talk) 18:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Seems rather long. I like ALT2 better. But let's wait for an actual review.--¿3family6 contribs 18:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Besides, uncle Al might be a GA in the future, so we can save the blinding for him.--¿3family6 contribs 19:04, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
  • ALT3 struck as it's far too long at 260 characters excluding the "pictured" and the second bolded hook. (ALT2 comes in under 200 characters with those exclusions.) Have no idea why EEng would believe that two hooks nets you double hook space, since those aren't the rules at all. See WP:DYKSG#C3 for the actual rule, and no, this doesn't come close to being "reasonably compact". In answer to the question above, only one nomination credit per article. Sorry. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
It's not hard to explain. I remembered that you got extra hook space for multiple articles. I misremembered it as 200 chars/article. No mystery. EEng (talk) 20:51, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

REVIEW of the Bela II article based on [1]. I wanted to help you out by reviewing since you addressed my concern, but I do apologize for all the questions, since I am new at this. Hopefully they are easily answered.

CHECK It doesn't seem to meet the first criterion (being new or expanded fivefold in seven days before June 17)? On May 1 it was 23,875 bytes and on June 17 it was 23,996 bytes. The guide says older articles can be allowed though. Recent good articles can qualify for DYK.

CHECK I am sorry I have no idea how to check if the article has "been featured on the Main Page's In the news section or that have previously appeared as a "qualifying article" in DYK". (Tell me and I don't mind doing the check) Article talk page mentions no previous In the news or DYK appearances.

CHECK Article is definitely long enough and is thoroughly cited to a number of books and articles on Hungarian history. The ALT2 hook fact(s) is stated in the article, and cited to three offline books. There are citations for each sentence and there is a References section (to books, not urls). There are three direct quotations and they are all cited.

CHECK All the article's sources are offline. What is required here when I am asked to verify the basic facts? The article is quite long and I am afraid I cannot give the time to find an online source for everything in it. I do know Bela II exists because he has an article in Britannica. [2]

CHECK There are no dispute templates and there have been none recently (back to April). It is not about a living person. It is neutral, it makes statements without editorializing.

CHECKI do not know how to check for plagiarism given the sources are offline. Offline sources accepted assuming good faith.

CHECK I count 183 characters in hook ALT2 (not counting spaces) which is under the limit. It seems neutral and does not involve a living person. It also seems interesting.

CHECK The image page for the image of Coloman declares it is a public domain image, but I do not know how to check if that declaration is correct. It appears to have been scanned from a copy of the Chronica Hungoram. The image appears in the Colomon article. based on the date of death of the original creator of the illustration. Assuming good faith that the scanned reproduction of it is similarly ok.

CHECK The nominator nominated someone else’s article, so not required to review other nominations.174.88.8.213 (talk) 20:54, 25 June 2014 (UTC)


Response to issues:
  • 1. You are right that the Bela II article does not mention the story. The original hook worked for both. I'll see if I can rectify things so that this article works for both.
  • 2.Recent good articles can also qualify for DYK. I myself did not realize this until recently.
  • 3 The talk page will mention if it has been featured before.
  • 4-5. Offline sources are typically approved assuming good faith, if you are unable to access them. You can ask an experienced user like Storye book or BlueMoonset if you have more questions.
  • 6. The reason the Coloman image is public domain is because the illustrator died over 600 years ago, and thus any copyright they held expired long, long, ago. I originally was going to use an image of Bela II, but they all seemed to show up too small on this hook. If you really think I should use one of Bela, than I will.
Thanks for the review, let me know if you still find issues. And you should consider getting an account. It's not required, but can be very helpful for contributing, plus it's easier to track your contributions since IP addresses are unstable.--¿3family6 contribs 21:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

What would be wrong with "... that, along with his father Álmos, Duke of Croatia, Béla II of Hungary was blinded by his uncle Coloman, King of Hungary?" as described in the lead of the article (with appropriate piping for those who know the subject matter)? If it's not accurate, then the article needs to be fixed, and if so, perhaps it shouldn't be a GA and therefore this DYK should be invalidated. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:55, 25 June 2014 (UTC) ALT4: "... that, along with his father Álmos, Duke of Croatia, Béla II of Hungary was blinded by his uncle Coloman, King of Hungary?"

I want to save the blinding in case Álmos, Duke of Croatia gets promoted to GA, though there is enough political intrigue there that another hook could be found.--¿3family6 contribs 21:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Here are some images of Bela for consideration as well:

  • Illustration of Bela II

Béla II., king of Hungary in the R initial of the Picture Chronicle

  • Blinding of Almos and Bela

Blinding of Álmos and his son Béla as depicted in the Illuminated Chronicle

As I said above, the images are hard to decipher, but I want to put them out here for consideration.--¿3family6 contribs 21:28, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Since there appears to be at least one issue outstanding above, and a new proposed hook, this still needs some reviewing. Note to 174.88.8.213: each review should only have one summary icon rather than an icon for each issue. The last icon on the page is what's picked up by the software when putting together the list of how many nominations are ready for promotion. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:16, 25 June 2014 (UTC)


Thank you very much for the help! I have edited above to show everything that has been addressed. The only outstanding issues left are:
? Will hook include both articles or just Bela II?
? Will image used be of Bela or (if both articles used) Coloman? I really don't mind either way, but if the hook is just to the Bela article I think the top Bela image makes more sense.
? Does image have rollover text?
P.S. Sorry for messing up the image icons, I didn't understand them. I have left them all out for now and will put in the checkmark one when we are done. 174.88.8.213 (talk) 23:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
You're doing a great job. Just to be clear, I think ALT2 is the live one. Correct me if I'm wrong. EEng (talk) 23:49, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I've brought over the information and citations about the blinding of Almos and Bela, and the dog castration account, into the Coloman article, so that should be all set. Which image is used is up to you, 174.88.8.213. And if you only want ALT2 to be used, you can strike out ALT4 <s>like this in wikitext</s> so that the promoter will only have one option. Up to you.--¿3family6 contribs 00:37, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Perfect! All good to go now. (ALT2 version)
Thank you again so much to everyone for addressing my concern and walking me through finishing the process. I can’t stay up later, so I trust you that the rollover text thing, whatever it is, is ok. The hook to both articles now works that the hook info is in both articles, the Coloman image is fine now that the hook is in that article (though I still think it is weird I get to decide that), and yes, ALT2 is the one we want since 3family6 is saving the blindness info for later. I hope no one thinks testicles are too rude for the front page.174.88.8.213 (talk) 00:53, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, rollover was done the whole time, as you can see if you hover your pointer over the image.--¿3family6 contribs 01:00, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Someone needs to green-tick this? EEng (talk) 11:31, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
It's blue-ticked, because the sources are offline and the reviewer is AGF.--¿3family6 contribs 13:06, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
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