Template:Did you know nominations/Christopher Lowrey
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:53, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
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Christopher Lowrey
- ... that countertenor Christopher Lowrey took part in the world premiere of Brett Dean's Hamlet in Glyndebourne in 2017, and moved with the production to Australia and the Metropolitan Opera? Source: several
- Reviewed: Eucalyptus wandoo
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 14:33, 2 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Christopher Lowrey; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
While the article meets DYK requirements and a QPQ has been provided, the hook as currently written is rather bland and requires specialist knowledge to really get it. If I were you, I'd probably focus more on the Metropolitan Opera angle as that's one that's more well-known and probably more familiar among non-specialists, as basically saying "performer did his job at a particular festival" isn't really something that would interest someone who already isn't interested in the topic. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I am sorry but don't understand. The Met is the destination of the hook, no? We can add a year to the Met performance, and can add that it was a live broadcast. Any world premiere is noteworthy, I think, even if you don't know Glyndebourne, but for others it's one of the most notable opera festivals, which was mentioned in hooks before (Liselotte Hammes for example, Marina de Gabaráin for another, - the greatest singers appear there, many having made their career from there). Gabaráin's lead (article not by me) says: "Marina de Gabaráin ... was a Spanish mezzo-soprano. Her international career began at Glyndebourne in 1952, where she appeared in Rossini's La Cenerentola as Angelina (Cinderella), which became her signature role."
- Right now we have a hook on the Main page about a singer saying more or less only that she sang well but was fat. Can we for a change inform, about a career beginning in Glyndebourne and leading via Australia to the Met? - If that's too long, we can skip Australia, but I think that it's particularly interesting as the composer is from there. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:24, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- There's probably an overestimation here about how much broad audiences would understand about such things or find it interesting. It's one of the DYK criterion that a hook needs to be interesting even to those with no specialist knowledge, and as currently written, the hook doesn't meet that. That's not to say that the article can't meet that criterion and like I said I think a hook focused specifically on the Met might solve my concerns. But remember this: we write the hooks for broad audiences, even those who don't care about opera and classical music. We don't write hooks for the nominator. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- We will probably disagree. Every world premiere is a distinct interesting fact, and 2017 is still rather recent news. ... that countertenor Christopher Lowrey took part in the world premiere of Brett Dean's Hamlet? - that would be an acceptable hook. Everything else is extra, and provides context. I find it astonishing, and worth telling the audience also ...
- ... that this piece by an Australian composer (with a recognizable title) was premiered in England at all
- ... that it was premiered at the Glyndebourne Festival which to know doesn't hurt
- ... that this young man made the typical start for a world career, being noticed in Glyndebourne
- ... that a production travels from Glyndebourne to Australia and the Met (I didn't know that!)
- To focus on the Met would be undue weight because there he only performed minor roles. Why not supply e bit of extra information? - Btw, the "fat singer" hook was modified, and I felt understood - which feels good! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:27, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- Such a hook is too reliant on specialist information, and we try as much as possible to avoid that. It may appeal to you but it does not appeal to non-opera fans, and Wikipedia isn't the Operapedia. You even admit in the above that he "made the typical start for a world career", which means his circumstances aren't even unusual. What makes him any different from the many other international opera artists that got their big break at Glyndebourne and performed internationally elsewhere? I'm sure Lowrey is a talented man and deserves to reach where he got to be, but this hook appeals to a very small niche, which goes against the DYK criteria. What I mean to say is: it proves his talent, but it doesn't make him atypical from any other person who were noticed at Glyndebourne and performed in a country different from their own. It's no different from a hook about how Carrie Underwood was discovered when she won American Idol and has since performed outside the United States. It shows Underwood is talented, but it doesn't make Underwood different from the many other American singers who have performed outside America. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- ALT1: ... that countertenor Christopher Lowrey took part in the world premiere of Brett Dean's Hamlet?
- What in my claim that this is an acceptable hook did you not understand? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think the hook would make much sense to people who don't know Lowrey or Dean. Sure, Hamlet is a recognizable name, but the hook doesn't make it clear how Lowrey being in this particular world premiere is any different from any other actor who was also in said premiere, or how this version of Hamlet is any more special than the many other versions of Hamlet to make Lowrey's participation intriguing by itself. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:11, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't mean the hook to run without context, but it says a lot about the singer:
- He is a countertenor.
- He is ready to take part in a new piece.
- He was ready to leave home.
- I will never understand why people would have to know Dean when there is a link. Those interested in new composers can click, and the others can skip the hook anyway. Trying to meet what everybody knows already is for me the exact opposite of "Did you now ...? - expecting a no for an answer, and supplying as much unknown stuff as possible. There's a world of opera to explore beyond the ten composers and 50 operas that "everybody" should know, and for some, even countertenor might be new. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- To serve the wish to say something about him that is unique:
- ALT2: ... that when countertenor Christopher Lowrey appeared at the Oper Frankfurt for the first time, as Medoro in Handel's Orlando in 2023, he was the only guest singer?
- If you really like that better I can find a ref. However, a countertenor in contemporary music is much more unusual, did you know? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:48, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I suppose that's a better option. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I added the ref. The line in question translates to "Medoro is countertenor Christopher Lowrey, house debutant and the only guest in the vocal quintet". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I suppose that's a better option. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't mean the hook to run without context, but it says a lot about the singer:
- I don't think the hook would make much sense to people who don't know Lowrey or Dean. Sure, Hamlet is a recognizable name, but the hook doesn't make it clear how Lowrey being in this particular world premiere is any different from any other actor who was also in said premiere, or how this version of Hamlet is any more special than the many other versions of Hamlet to make Lowrey's participation intriguing by itself. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:11, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- Such a hook is too reliant on specialist information, and we try as much as possible to avoid that. It may appeal to you but it does not appeal to non-opera fans, and Wikipedia isn't the Operapedia. You even admit in the above that he "made the typical start for a world career", which means his circumstances aren't even unusual. What makes him any different from the many other international opera artists that got their big break at Glyndebourne and performed internationally elsewhere? I'm sure Lowrey is a talented man and deserves to reach where he got to be, but this hook appeals to a very small niche, which goes against the DYK criteria. What I mean to say is: it proves his talent, but it doesn't make him atypical from any other person who were noticed at Glyndebourne and performed in a country different from their own. It's no different from a hook about how Carrie Underwood was discovered when she won American Idol and has since performed outside the United States. It shows Underwood is talented, but it doesn't make Underwood different from the many other American singers who have performed outside America. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- We will probably disagree. Every world premiere is a distinct interesting fact, and 2017 is still rather recent news. ... that countertenor Christopher Lowrey took part in the world premiere of Brett Dean's Hamlet? - that would be an acceptable hook. Everything else is extra, and provides context. I find it astonishing, and worth telling the audience also ...
- There's probably an overestimation here about how much broad audiences would understand about such things or find it interesting. It's one of the DYK criterion that a hook needs to be interesting even to those with no specialist knowledge, and as currently written, the hook doesn't meet that. That's not to say that the article can't meet that criterion and like I said I think a hook focused specifically on the Met might solve my concerns. But remember this: we write the hooks for broad audiences, even those who don't care about opera and classical music. We don't write hooks for the nominator. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
This nomination has been stuck for a while and I apologize for not returning to it sooner. I've been giving this nomination and was torn between approving ALT2 and not, but after giving this some thought, I just don't think that the hook meets the "interesting to a non-specialist audience" criterion. The fact that you had to explain the reason why the original hook was significant shows that it is indeed specialist; had it not been, it should have been somewhat evident from the start. As for the guest singer angle, as much as I really want to approve the hook, I have reservations if a non-opera fan would find it significant. They might just give it a shrug and not get why being a guest singer is a big deal, especially if they are unfamiliar with the Oper Frankfurt. You mentioned that "those who are not interested can just skip the hook", but that's against the spirit of DYK: the point of DYK is to make as many people want to learn more about the subject, not less people. That's why they're called hooks in the first place.
- Remember that at DYK, we appeal to a broad audience, not a niche. If we write about opera, we make hooks that want to make even non-opera fans learn more about the subject and look them up. We do not write solely for opera fans and we don't want to make it so that only opera fans understand what is even being said. This is not even an anti-opera bias. Similar concerns have been raised about other technical subjects like computing, medicine, and science; if the average reader can't understand it, then the hook is too specialist and needs to be revised or replaced. For what it's worth though, statistics have consistently shown that opera hooks are among the least-viewed hooks on DYK, and opera hooks that do well are a small minority. And when they do, it's usually because either they have a picture (picture hooks usually get a boost no matter the subject), or because the hook was not specialist. I'm not suggesting that views are everything and I freely admit that my own DYK hooks rarely do well number-wise, my point is simply that the current way opera hooks are written on DYK are probably hurting the subject more than helping, and there is data to suggest it. Basically, opera hooks have somewhat of a reputation for being too specialist, and that's an issue when one of the DYK criteria, which was implemented by a relatively strong consensus after a very long discussion, states that hooks must be easily understood by non-specialists, something that is not always seen with opera hooks (and really, several other unrelated fields, but that's another story).
- In any case, I checked the nomination looking for an alternative and couldn't find anything, so I think it would be for the best to just move on from this nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:33, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
- Look, I more or less left DYK because you should not use "we" for describing what you do and what I do. If I write about a sports person, I want to mention sports, and if I write about an opera singer, I want to mention opera. I think the fact that this production (of whichever new opera) travelled round the globe should be interesting to a broad audience. I don't know of any other instance, really. New operas typically don't get played again even once, and this one made it to the Met's live broadcast, with many of the original performers. Please consider. - Just yesterday, we had a hook that made me shake my heads: "... that during the filming of Adele One Night Only, a male attendee blindfolded his partner of seven years and proposed to her?" - a fact that has no relevance to the bold article, imho. I didn't complain because I'm an vacation, in too good mood to deal with DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:01, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
- Going on tour by itself just isn't atypical. It's common for operas, plays, musicals, and other productions to go around on tour. Now if there was something unusual about such a global tour, then yes, that could work. But tours by themselves are not really hooky. They're great for the people involved and for the audiences, but it's not really hooky. And I won't lie, I actually do think the Adele One Night Only hook you gave as an example is a decent (not necessarily great, but decent) example of a hook that would make even someone uninterested or unfamiliar with the subject read more. Like, why would a male attendee propose at that event, and what were the circumstances behind it? I'm not really sure that saying that Lowrey taking part at a premiere of an opera or that he was a guest singer has the same effect. And again, I'm not saying that page views are everything, but if the article got 5,000+ hits during its run when it usually gets less than 100 views a day, the hook must have done something right.
- As for your comment that the hook "has to relevance to the bold article", that's beside the point. Hooks should not necessarily be solely about what the subject is known for, but rather, simply something interesting about the subject that would want people to read more. I didn't want to bring up the Winston Churchill hook as an example again, but what kind of hook would you have preferred: a hook about him being a former Prime Minister of the UK, which virtually everyone who's at least heard about him knows, or that he was a bricklayer in his spare time, something most people were unaware of? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:15, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Or let's give another example of what I mean. The current lead hook as of my comment right now is Brooklyn Trust Company Building. The hook says that one of its former bank vaults was converted into a pet-grooming station. The article's lead says that it's a building known for use as a bank and for residential purposes. The pet-grooming station mention isn't mentioned until much later into the article, and even then, only once. Is that necessarily a problem? No, because the point of the hook is that, by saying that this former bank building has a pet-grooming station, a reader would want to find out why, thus clicking on the link and reading the article. That's the point of hooks. Hook facts do not necessarily have to be the exact thing a subject is known for, merely something that should get attention and want the reader to learn more. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:19, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- You wrote a lot, and ignored my specific comment that it is unusual for a new opera, both tour and Met live broadcast. Please reply to that. I am sorry - just returning from vacation - to have no time to even read which seems not relevant, or think about a different hook. Maybe tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:37, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Churchill: the big difference is that people know him already, and we want readers to say "no" to a DYK hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:39, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Look, I more or less left DYK because you should not use "we" for describing what you do and what I do. If I write about a sports person, I want to mention sports, and if I write about an opera singer, I want to mention opera. I think the fact that this production (of whichever new opera) travelled round the globe should be interesting to a broad audience. I don't know of any other instance, really. New operas typically don't get played again even once, and this one made it to the Met's live broadcast, with many of the original performers. Please consider. - Just yesterday, we had a hook that made me shake my heads: "... that during the filming of Adele One Night Only, a male attendee blindfolded his partner of seven years and proposed to her?" - a fact that has no relevance to the bold article, imho. I didn't complain because I'm an vacation, in too good mood to deal with DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:01, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
- Proposing:
- ALT3: ... that countertenor Christopher Lowrey's voice has been described as "packed with enough character to sink a battleship"? 2015 Limelight magazine review Cielquiparle (talk) 18:59, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Now that is an eye-catching hook, much better than the earlier-proposed ones. Like I said above, it doesn't have to be a summary of his career. It just needs to highlight an aspect about him that would encourage readers to learn more, and I think his voice being compared to "sinking battleships" does that. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Cielquiparle: I'm ready to approve ALT3 as it addresses my original concerns about interestingness; however, I cannot access the source. Could you give an Archive.today link so I can verify it myself? If this is impossible, it's okay, I can accept the source in good faith. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:39, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: The link should work if you log in to Wikipedia Library first and then click on it. Will look into other ways to display a snippet in due course. Cielquiparle (talk) 05:56, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for the suggestion, and I will not fight, although I believe that it says nothing about where comes from, and where he landed (Metropolitan Opera, which is more interesting for me than a battleship, - I hate battles.). How is this though:
- ALT3a: ... that Christopher Lowrey's countertenor voice has been described as "packed with enough character to sink a battleship"? I also think that is not a factual description but some writing in the purpose to be eye-catching. I wonder what the subject would say, and please get ready for the question who described. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:41, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: It appears to be behind a paywall on the Limelight magazine website, so accessing it via Wikipedia Library is your best bet. Cielquiparle (talk) 16:21, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: The link should work if you log in to Wikipedia Library first and then click on it. Will look into other ways to display a snippet in due course. Cielquiparle (talk) 05:56, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- Now that is an eye-catching hook, much better than the earlier-proposed ones. Like I said above, it doesn't have to be a summary of his career. It just needs to highlight an aspect about him that would encourage readers to learn more, and I think his voice being compared to "sinking battleships" does that. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
As I cannot access the source I will assume good faith with what Cielquiparle said about it. I am preferring ALT3 as I feel that the source may have been talking about Lowrey's voice specifically, not as a countertenor, and thus it might be slightly more accurate. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- The intention of ALT3a was to introduce a link to countertenor. Firstly, I believe that people on the street may know tenor, but I feel that it's less likely for countertenor. Also, they are still rare, which makes him more special. I find the construction with the word before the name a bit complex, and what is said is very general (for everybody to see), - for me it actually says about nothing. I'd still prefer to say more about his achievements instead of something brutal, but will probably not be heard. Compare Gabriele Schnaut. When she died I could just quote the DYK for showing how and where she developed. I wish Mr. Lowrey a long life ...
- ALT3b: ... that Christopher Lowrey's countertenor voice has been described as "packed with enough character to sink a battleship"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:59, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- That can be solved by ALT3 just being modified to link to countertenor in prep. There's no need to make a completely new hook just to link to countertenor, especially if the source isn't specifically talking about his countertenor voice, but instead just his voice in general. Saying the quote referred to his countertenor voice and not is voice in general would not match the source. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:02, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- It must be my lack of English, I am so sorry. For me, the quote refers to his voice in general, but it makes sense (to me) to say that his voice is a countertenor voice, as explained: rare. I also explained why I think combining voice type and voice is better than voice type and name. The prep builder - hopefully a native speaker - may take of these concerns, or not. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- Exactly. If the source was referring to his voice in general and not his countertenor voice specifically, that's what the hook has to say. Insisting on the quote referring to his countertenor voice if the source did not say so would be a one-way ticket to WP:ERRORS or WT:DYK. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:32, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- It must be my lack of English, I am so sorry. For me, the quote refers to his voice in general, but it makes sense (to me) to say that his voice is a countertenor voice, as explained: rare. I also explained why I think combining voice type and voice is better than voice type and name. The prep builder - hopefully a native speaker - may take of these concerns, or not. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- That can be solved by ALT3 just being modified to link to countertenor in prep. There's no need to make a completely new hook just to link to countertenor, especially if the source isn't specifically talking about his countertenor voice, but instead just his voice in general. Saying the quote referred to his countertenor voice and not is voice in general would not match the source. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:02, 28 June 2023 (UTC)