Template:Did you know nominations/All Glory, Laud and Honour

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Sven Manguard Wha? 19:26, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

All Glory, Laud and Honour edit

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~~... that reportedly upon hearing "All Glory, Laud and Honour", the Holy Roman Emperor ordered that its author be released from house arrest and that the hymn be played every Palm Sunday?~~

Reviewed: William Wallace (philosopher)
Comment: To be held for Palm Sunday (13 April)

Created by The C of E (talk). Self nominated at 09:03, 14 March 2014 (UTC).

This article is new enough and long enough. The hook is sourced to a book and accepted in good faith. The QPQ has been done and I detected no policy issues. For 13th April, please. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Quotation marks added for a hymn. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:08, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

"Leader of the Holy Roman Empire"? Um, howzabout "Holy Roman Emperor"? But more importantly, I'm sorry but the hook is founded on quicksand. First of all, the source doesn't say these things happened, but rather that legend says they happened. And this source gives, itself, no citation or basis even for the idea that there's such a legend -- it's a pop book of "inspiring stories" obviously tweaked to give each hymn a cute gee-whiz backstory, not to reflect scholarly understanding. Inserting "reportedly" doesn't excuse carrying on the main page something someone made up for a hymnbook. EEng (talk) 10:17, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
there is a question above, not by me, but I was advised not to add symbols to other people's comment. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:26, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to know where he is getting that notion that it was "made up" from. A published work like that would have been checked for accuracy before being published. Yes, it is uncertain if it did happen like that (hence reportedly, not claiming it as it definitely did) but there is nothing to suggest it was "made up". I have added another source which supports it. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 10:51, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I've done a bit of rewording in the article: the two sources are clear that this is "probably apocryphal" or an "old legend", so it has to be treated as such; "reportedly" makes it sound far more definite than it is. (Did Louis visit Theodulf at the monastery, was he visiting the monastery for other reasons and hear Theodulf, or was he in a procession that went past the monastery and overheard Theodulf singing inside? The sources don't even agree on that.) I have a problem with the word "played", since this would have been Theodulf's words sung to a melody (could have been pre-existing or new). Suggesting an ALT hook to cover the issues raised:

ALT1: ~~... that according to legend, when the Holy Roman Emperor first heard "All Glory, Laud and Honour", he released its author from house arrest and ordered that the hymn be sung every Palm Sunday?~~

It's 189 characters, so not too long. Maybe it could be trimmed further? BlueMoonset (talk) 14:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Forgot to strike the original hook due to the issues raised. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:16, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Switching from "reportedly" to "legend" addresses my concerns. Let me suggest an ALT2 (a little rewording packs more matter into DYK's small compass):

ALT2: ... that legend holds that Holy Roman Emperor Louis the Pious, on hearing Theodulf of Orléans sing "All Glory, Laud and Honour", released Theodulf from exile and ordered the hymn sung every Palm Sunday?

However, [1] (p. 986, bottom right column) doesn't mention the must-sing bit (and is pretty convincing that the whole thing is decidedly false, but again, "legend" handles that I guess). I'll leave it to y'all to determine if that's part of the established legend, or some additional color someone threw in more recently; if the latter I think it should stay out. EEng (talk) 14:46, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I'll risk giving this another tick! It is now sourced both to a book and also to an online source and I think ALT2 is fine. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)