Talk:WikiIslam/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Self-Citations

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Just adding a friendly note here on referencing: Wikipedia does not cite Wikipedia when discussing articles. The same should be the case for Wikiislam. Wikipedia referencing works through citing secondary and tertiary sources, and not primary sources. Please avoid using the website itself as a citation since it is a publicly editable wiki that is prone to change. The website itself is also not peer reviewed; any self citation risks synthesizing information to create original research. NarSakSasLee (talk) 18:13, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, NarSakSasLee. What are your thoughts on using a limited amount of information from the Wiki in light of WP:ABOUTSELF? Snuish2 (talk) 18:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

A limited amount of information would have been fine, but the problem here is that it is a wiki that is prone to constant change via anonymous users who are not experts in the field. These users cannot also be said to be truly representing the wiki or its goals. It is better to use secondary and tertiary sources for stating what the website is about, not the website itself. NarSakSasLee (talk) 02:38, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

It looks like WP:USERGENERATED is also useful here. It says that Wikis are generally not allowed. However, I do see limited use of articles citing the Wikis themselves at Wikipedia and Citizendium. Snuish2 (talk) 19:58, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I would like to point out that wikiIslam is privately owned and they do have a peer-review process - WikiIslam policy guidelines - Pending Changes As such we should be able to quote goals and about at least, no? Also, the OR cited in this article use deprecated links and quotes removed from WikiIslam, and they are still being treated as though they are valid. Thank you. Editor atlas (talk) 19:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

The "peer-review" process that Wikipedia policies refer to is a peer-review of experts, as would occur in a scholarly journal. Snuish2 (talk) 19:58, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I concur. @Snuish2: is right. That isn't how peer review works @Editor atlas:. NarSakSasLee (talk) 02:38, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Criticism" or "Reception"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

@NarSakSasLee: I disagree that the section should be named "Criticism." Established articles like Wikipedia, for which you cited a precedent above, typically use "reception" and there are essays detailing why sections named "criticism" should be avoided (see WP:CRIT). Snuish2 (talk) 20:22, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm failing to understand what the actual issue is here? Maybe I'm not getting it since I've have spent too much time in the academic literary world to see what's wrong here. To help you understand my point of view, I've personally published works in academic journals and my works themselves have been subject to criticism - so I would expect wiki articles that deal with my works to have a criticism section. Similarly, we're dealing with a body of literature with Wikiislam, and literature is subject to criticism.

Therefore "criticism" is a better name for the use of the section since actual works have been commissioned to critically examine the websites content. Such works have criticised the website for it's unscholarly nature and particular slant of view. "Reception" sounds very ambiguous. But maybe it's supposed to sound that way? I'd be willing to go for "reception" if you can clear this issue (with a short, concise reply), because with section naming I like to be precise in order to give the reader an idea of what the section is about.

- NarSakSasLee (talk) 05:58, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I'll use a portion of the essay I linked above: "Although the term 'criticism' can, in that context, include both positive and negative assessment, the word 'Criticism' should be avoided in section titles because it may convey a negative connotation to many readers. Alternative section titles which avoid a negative connotation include 'Reception', 'Reviews', 'Responses', 'Reactions', 'Critiques', and 'Assessments'." Snuish2 (talk) 16:09, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Wonderful. I'd be okay with calling it "critique" since this aptly describes the content found within the section. NarSakSasLee (talk) 08:57, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Great. I have no concerns about using "critiques." I've changed the section title. Snuish2 (talk) 15:35, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Excellent, pleasure having come to an appropriate conclusion with you. NarSakSasLee (talk) 18:01, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Who is the Founder of WikiIslam?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Two days ago, the article was modified to assert that Ali Sina is the founder of WikiIslam. As NarSakSasLee correctly pointed out, the source does indeed mention in passing that Sina is the founder. The citation in the book, numbered 13, is simply to "faithfreedom.org." I changed this back, but Doug reverted.
My understanding is that individuals who were members of the FaithFreedom forums began WikiIslam. In the past, I was reluctant to name Sina as the founder since WikiIslam has actually never cited him as its founder, nor has Sina ever claimed to be its founder via his websites (faithfreedom.org and alisina.org). He has not been shy associating himself with Islamophobic vitriol before and I would not expect him to withhold taking credit for founding WikiIslam if indeed he had actually founded the wiki.
Sina is also mentioned on page 66 of this detailed article on WikiIslam, but the authors simply describe him as a contributor to FFI. On the earliest archived version of WikiIslam's page of itself that I could find, the page notes that WikiIslam was created in collaboration with "Ali Sina and Faith Freedom International," not by Ali Sina or Faith Freedom International. @NarSakSasLee and Doug Weller: thoughts? Snuish2 (talk) 00:17, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

This version of their FAQ from 2012 addresses the question:

• Is WikiIslam owned by Ali Sina or Faith Freedom International?
• No, we are not. WikiIslam was created on October 27, 2005 in collaboration with Ali Sina and Faith Freedom International. However, in August 2008, the site was moved out of FFI's server and since then we have been an independent site not owned by Ali Sina or Faith Freedom International.

The current version of the FAQ is also helpful:

• Who founded WikiIslam?
• WikiIslam was created on October 27, 2005 by various online activists led by Axius and was hosted on server space provided by Faith Freedom International. Starting in August 2008, the site separated from FFI and operated as an independent site. In 2015, following excessive amounts of vandalism, the site came under the management of the Ex-Muslims of North America.

Snuish2 (talk) 00:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

This is case of unintentional OR and SYNTH. Let me explain; the source which is cited clearly says Sina was the one who founded Wikiislam. I'll quote it here: "Wikiislam is a "community-edited website" that was registered on October 27, 2005, though it opened on September 4, 2006. It was begun by an Iranian ex-Muslim named Ali Sina and is maintained by an organisation known as Faith Freedom International (FFI)". It can be found from this source:

1. Mays, Christin; Deland, Mats; Minkenberg, Michael, eds. (2014). In the Tracks of Breivik: Far Right Networks in Northern and Eastern Europe. Berlin: Lit Verlag. p. 162. ISBN 9783643905420. OCLC 881140905.

1. I will attach an imgur screenshot of it, so you can read it in whole.

Since this is a scholarly peer reviewed source it is much more trustworthy than what Wikiislam itself claims now or may have done in the past. In other words it doesn't matter what Wikiislam itself actually claims now or has in the past; the point is the authors of a scholarly source have determined the sites origins. Since researchers have determined this, this is what we have to go with. Again, we cannot reference the wiki itself since it has been subject to constant revision since 2005.

Also with respect to the page 66 article you've mentioned, they do mention he's a contributor, but it is possible to be both a contributor and founder of a website.

- NarSakSasLee (talk) 05:45, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@NarSakSasLee: thanks, the source you are quoting is the same source that led to my revert. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 15:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Right, I mentioned above that In the Tracks of Breivik does say that -- I originally added that source to this article. In regards to the article in CyberOrient, it would be incredibly odd to describe someone (Sina) as merely a contributor to an associated website (FFI) if you believed that they were also the founder of the website (WikiIslam) to which the article is dedicated to describing. I don't share your position on whether we can reference the Wiki; WP:ABOUTSELF permits limited use of such citations and articles that have had much more vetting by the community, such as Wikipedia, Citizendium, Conservapedia, RationalWiki, and others contain a few citations to the wikis themselves. It is also appropriate to determine whether In the Tracks of Breivik may be inaccurate in this instance. See this explanatory supplement. In light of the CyberOrient article's description of Sina, the absence of any assertions by Sina that he is the founder of WikiIslam, and WikiIslam's fairly consistent account of its own history, asserting that Sina is the founder is problematic. Snuish2 (talk) 16:40, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

The article on Cyberorient is irrelevant here as it does not comment on the websites foundation. As explained above you can both be a founder of something as well as a contributor. Furthermore, we cannot reference the wiki itself on a subject about itself unless it's backed up by another reliable source (this avoids the subject in question trying to avoid more controversial aspects about itself which it very well may want to hide). Wikiislam may have claimed in the past that it was founded by Sina but later may have distanced themselves from it (we don't know, and it's better left to researchers to answer this question). Therefore it's not appropriate to claim In the Tracks of Breivik may be inaccurate as it may very well be accurate. However, I'd be okay with adding in something to the effect of "it was founded by Ali Sina of Faith Freedom International, but Wikiislam itself disputes this". I think this would be a good compromise without delving into OR and SYNTH. @Doug Weller: you're input would also be valuable here. NarSakSasLee (talk) 08:48, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Something like that should work. I've also found this.[1] It says "Ali Sina is the founder of Faith Freedom International (FFI). FFI identifies itself as “a grassroots worldwide movement of ex-Muslims and all those who are concerned about the rise of the Islamic threat”. Ali Sina also established Wiki Islam which only prints material which is negative towards Islam. He identifies himself as an ex-Muslim and says that he uses the pseudonym Ali Sina because of fear for his life.

Ali Sina and Faith Freedom run the anti-Muslim Wiki Islam site." The magazine/website is mentioned in an OUP publication.[2] and the author/founder is "Sheila Musaji" who seems reputable.[3] and details here.[4] I see the SPLC used an email of hers in an article.[5]. Doug Weller talk 10:48, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Incredible. I didn't know the founder of FFI and Wikiislam was this...toxic. Thank you for directing this to our attention. NarSakSasLee (talk) 18:06, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate both of you engaging in this robust discussion. I was previously having difficulty finding archives of WikiIslam before 2010-2012, but I kept digging and found this very early version of the FAQ from April 2007, which is entirely consistent with what's found In the Tracks of Breivik. It stayed that way until November 2008, at the very least. Early versions of WikiIslam's "About us" page even explained that the wiki started at wiki.faithfreedom.org. It does seem that WikiIslam later distanced itself from that version of its history, for whatever reason. I'm going to withdraw my request to have this addressed. Snuish2 (talk) 16:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Excellent detective work. Thanks for your cooperation. Doug Weller talk 16:20, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Very well done indeed. You're detective work is precisely the reason why I don't trust sources talking about themselves in articles about themselves. I suppose if we're going to mention Wikiislam's take on it's founding, we should mention that it both claims to have been founded by Ali Sina/FFI and also claims not to have been founded by them. How should we word this then? Any proposals? NarSakSasLee (talk) 17:59, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I would present this in the article. Maybe a footnote at most. The sentences from the 2007 version of the FAQ are: "The site belongs to and is maintained by Faith Freedom International. FFI is an organization whose goals are to unmask Islam and help Muslims leave it. It is founded by Ali Sina, an ex-Muslim from Iran." In the Tracks of Breivik certainly takes this to mean that Sina is WikiIslam's founder, but what if the antecedent of "it" in "it is founded by Ali Sina" is FFI and not WikiIslam, given that the preceding sentence is about FFI? The sentences are poorly written. I think that gives WikiIslam some plausible deniability.
However, this earlier account is certainly not consistent with later versions of WikiIslam's history in regards to its relationship with FFI. In 2014, for example, WikiIslam described its connection to FFI more tenuously: "WikiIslam was created on October 27, 2005, in collaboration with various individuals from Faith Freedom International who provided the site with server space, technical help and exposure." WikiIslam was an outgrowth of FFI, having started at wiki.faithfreedom.org, and yet the 2014 account states that it was created in "collaboration with various individuals from FFI" and misleadingly implies that the site had some level of independence at its onset. Snuish2 (talk) 18:44, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Hmm. At the end of the day we can't really assume things. We can only go by what scholarly sources say. So the "Tracks of Brevik" source has to stay in at least since it's been peer reviewed. However, with respect to the Wiki itself, I'm still uncomfortable with quoting it about itself despite the contradictory claims Wikiislam has made of itself. But, I feel at the same time something about it needs to be said (so a footnote would probably be more appropriate). On a side note I'm doubtful now that exmuslims of america even owns the site at this point. No other source appears to claim this. But I suppose that's for another discussion. For all we know exmuslims of america is probably owned by Sina himself. I'm sure if it was sold to a registered charity (which I think exmuslims of america is) then there would be some sort of public record for it. Something seems very strange about it all. NarSakSasLee (talk) 20:02, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Personally, I'd rather just leave this unaddressed since I don't have much doubt remaining about the accuracy of In the Tracks of Breivik and we don't have any reliable sources describing how WikiIslam has inconsistently recounted its own history. I don't want the article to devolve from the professional tone we've achieved. Exploring the history of its pages would without a doubt reveal many inconsistencies and misrepresentations. Snuish2 (talk) 20:29, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Sure. I feel uncomfortable quoting the wiki about itself anyway. Better just leave it to peer reviewed researchers. NarSakSasLee (talk) 23:24, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Critiques"

@NarSakSasLee: Some of the reactions I've been finding are only a paragraph or half a paragraph long. I'm concerned that these are not detailed enough to be called "critiques." Snuish (talk) 21:27, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

What would you like to rename it to? NarSakSasLee (talk) 10:03, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Of the possible names we considered before, "Reception," "Reactions," and possibly "Assessments" may still be appropriate. Snuish (talk) 15:00, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Lets revert it back to reception. NarSakSasLee (talk) 23:03, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree that's the best catch-all term for the content. Changed. Snuish (talk) 23:21, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Hasn't the site changed?

For example, "Telling the Truth about Islam? Apostasy Narratives and Representations of Islam on WikiIslam.net" from 2013 (CyberOrient, Vol. 7, Issue 1, 2013, pp. 64-93) says:

"the narratives of ex-Muslims (here called apostasy narratives) are of great importance for WikiIslam and its adherents."

but currently WikiIslam's "History" section says:

... The mission statement and new policy and writing guidelines were added, while many articles on the site were removed, including satirical and polemical content, ex-Muslim testimonies, as well as op-eds and personal essays. (highlighting added)

Shouldn't we consider the possibility that the attacks by Larsson 2007, CyberOrient, etc. have had their desired effect and moved the site away from being what the lede calls an "an anti-Muslim" wiki? -- Louis P. Boog (talk) 03:37, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

We have reliable sources calling the site "rabidly anti-Muslim" as late as 2019 and no reliable sources yet contradicting such assessments. WikiIslam accounts of its own history have been found to be not credible, and even contradictory, in the discussions above. Relying on it as a source for itself is problematic and inconsistent with policy. Snuish (talk) 03:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Deleted edits

The following edit was added 14 April 2021 and deleted 20 minutes later:

As of 2021 the website's About/Mission statement/History page states that WikiIslam is "a non-political and non-religious wiki" that "remains neutral towards religions, world views, and issues of a political nature and likewise stays away from extremist, sensationalist or emotional commentary." It does not state who owns the site but does say that in 2015 it came "under the management of the Ex-Muslims of North America", and that this group "initiated an overhaul of WikiIslam, with the stated goal of setting a high criteria of objectivity, neutrality, and professionalism" in late 2018.

Its section on "WikiIslam vs. Wikipedia" says nothing about political correctness or censorship but does state that Wikiislam has "differing goals" from Wikipedia which have "led to different policies and guidelines", such as the use of primary sources and which sources can be considered "notable".

Here is a paraphrase of the edit summary:

while I know Wikipedia looks down on citing a source from the subject of the article, I think if the source is identified and directly relevant it ought to be included. The current article quotes wikiIslam: '"opinions critical of Islam" would not be censored on WikiIslam "for political correctness,"' but it's not there, or not there anymore. Shouldn't that be noted??? Currently the article sound as though Wikislam is a website equivalent of Counter Jihad Coalition or ACT! for America)

It was deleted by Snuish2, who edit summarized:

Inclusion of its mission statement is quite self-serving and at odds with WP:ABOUTSELF/WP:MISSION. Its stated objectives are not supported by its assessments in reliable sources, even those that have described it as of 2018 and 2019. This warrants a discussion on the talk page if you insist on including it.)

--Louis P. Boog (talk) 04:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to add? The inserted section seems to be a clear-cut violation of WP:NOR and WP:ABOUTSELF. Snuish (talk) 04:45, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

According to WP:ABOUTSELF you cannot use the source ONLY if it meets the following criteria: 1. the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;2. it 3. does not involve claims about third parties; 4. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source; 5. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; and 6. the article is not based primarily on such sources. The about page of WikiIslam meets none of these criteria (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam), so I have replaced the misleading, outdated quote with the current, correct information.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:55, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

And to claim that it is now neutral and/or reliable would violate the first prong. That claim would be both self-serving and exceptional, given that it would be contradictory to multiple reliable sources. There are also WP:SPS and WP:USERGENERATED, which prohibit the use of wikis. Snuish (talk) 13:30, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

It does not violate the first prong. The policy clearly says "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves." You have provided no evidence that this is wrong or self-serving. Also the sources you keep citing are clearly incorrect, the testimonies for instance no longer exist on the site and saying that they do is clearly inaccurate and contested by the later, more accurate source. Moreover if Wikis should not be cited then why was it OK to cite the Wiki back in 2015, but not now?--Underthemayofan (talk) 16:50, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Where is the 2015 wiki cited? This is unduly self-serving information and an exceptional claim. It absolutely violates the first criterion. Snuish (talk) 18:27, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

"WikiIslam described its purpose as "collect[ing] facts relating to the criticism of Islam from valid Islamic sources without the effect of censorship that is common in Wikipedia" and claims to have started as a result of the difficulty in "presenting 'correct' (i.e., critical) information on [Wikipedia]."" This is a direct citation from the Wiki in 2015, if this is citable so should the current mission statement be citable. Why would a mission statement from 2015 be more relevant than the current mission statement?--Underthemayofan (talk) 00:11, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

This is, again, a total failure to comprehend WP:RS. This citation is from a third-party source, not WikiIslam itself. Snuish (talk) 03:36, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

The citation is quoting WikiIslam. What exactly is the functional difference here?--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:18, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

The functional difference is that a third-party peer-reviewed reliable source has determined that it is relevant to its topic and significant enough to be noteworthy in a discussion on the topic, as opposed to a Wikipedia editor drawing from a primary source. Snuish (talk) 04:23, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

1. We have a third party source, Ex-Muslims of North America who run it, saying these things, as well as the video by the very same two academics originally cited saying much the same thing 2. This is a reference work we are talking about, the policies clearly don't say that in an article on the Encyclopedia Britannica you couldn't quote what the Encyclopedia says about itself in its opening.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:30, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

By way of comparison, the article on the Rational Wiki quotes from the wiki and from the Rational Media foundation multiple times when talking about what the wiki claims for itself.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:35, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you get the idea that EXMNA is a "third-party" source on a Wiki that they themselves own. They are a primary source. You'll note that the RationalWiki is tagged for using too many primary sources. The wiki also does not have a history being a hate website, so I'm not sure that the comparison is apt. Stormfront, for example, does not cite the website itself or its owners. Snuish (talk) 04:49, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Only one section of the article has that tag, the very next section "Content" does not have that tag but immediately cites RationalWiki itself. I really don't care what your personal feelings are towards the website, that should not affect how it is treated versus any other page on Wikipedia. Again, if they own the site and claim that they have done something on it which is verifiably there, and what they do on the website is the subject of the article, how does that not meet the standard of WP:Verifiability?--Underthemayofan (talk) 05:10, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Where do I discuss my personal feelings about the website? Stating that it has a history of being a hate website is hardly a mere "personal opinion." WP:V does not mean that editors are going about checking the veracity of a source. Your argument here is not policy-based but uses one page as the basis of your comparison, and there are plenty of counterexamples, one of which I cited above. WP:Verifiability requires the use of reliable sources, the hallmark of which is peer-reviewed published sources, not the sources you've cited. I encourage you to read over WP:RS more broadly to understand both its letter and spirit. Snuish (talk) 05:20, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

New Section on the "History of WikiIslam"

Seeing as our best sources seem to indicate that the Wiki has changed alot, and much of the current material is out of date, I would like to suggest creating a new section, something along the lines of "History of WikiIslam" and moving most of the historical content into that section so that the rest of the article can be free to accurately represent the site as it now exists.--Underthemayofan (talk) 02:13, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

very good idea Louis P. Boog (talk) 02:19, 24 December 2021 (UTC) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Louis P. Boog (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)

Very well, I'll go ahead and make those changes. As per Wikipedia:ABOUTSELF I'll be citing mostly WikiIslam internal docs about the website's policies and I'll use the video and the Ex-Muslims of North America site about the renovation. I'll also include another section on the renovation.--Underthemayofan (talk) 02:23, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

"I'll be citing mostly WikiIslam internal docs about the website's policies and I'll use the video and the Ex-Muslims of North America site about the renovation..." You may not per the de minimis requirement in WP:SELFSOURCE. Snuish (talk) 05:31, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, that's just not acceptable. Organisations and people lie by omission and commission about themselves or try in various ways to make themselves look acceptable. Doug Weller talk 11:46, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Organizations surely do lie, so if there's any evidence of that we can post it. But as per Wikipedia policy we can use sources that talk about themselves to describe the subject if they themselves are the subject of the article, as can be seen in here and here. As for the de minimis object, "de minimis means "of minimum/at a minimum" in Latin and Wikipedia's own De minimis article states "The general term has come to have a variety of specialized meanings in various contexts." The WP itself offers no definition, nor does the WP article, however in the section immediately after stating that the contributions are to be "de minimis" the article says "the great majority of any article must be drawn from independent sources." The great majority of the sources and text in the article do draw from 3rd party sources, so this still fits the de minimis requirement as the policy lays it out.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:06, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

You're using WikiIslam/EXMNA itself to reframe the entire article and arguing that doing so meets the "de minimis" standard. That can't be a serious argument. Snuish (talk) 21:29, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

What begs credulity is that you want to use clearly old sources on a topic where they are clearly not relevant where they were. I stand by my assertion the current use of the sources meets the de minimis standard. It is entirely fitting with the text of the WP article.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:46, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I join Snuish and Doug Weller in expressing total opposition to using WikiIslam as a source for anything in this article. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:50, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

This 'total opposition' to using WikiIslam flies in the face of WP:RS which says "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves." Do you seriously doubt that an overhaul took place, or that the material such as the testimonies was removed as per WikiIslam's about page? Is there any serious evidence that that WikiIslam or Ex-Muslims of North America are being deceptive here? Do you have a verifiable source saying that Larrson and Brekke were wrong when they said that the site had undergone an overhaul?--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:38, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Neutrality compromised

"Anti-muslim" used to describe the website that concerns itself with an ideology rather than a group of people compromises the neutrality of Wikipedia as well as invalidate the experiences of those who left the religion of Islam. Wikiislam can be described as a website concerning critique of the religion by its former members. 27.114.186.199 (talk) 21:05, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Which reliable source describes WikiIslam "as a website concerning critique of the religion by its former members"? Many of the former and current contributors are not former members of the religion, i.e., ex-Muslims.

WikiIslam has historically hosted quite a bit of anti-Muslim content. It's for that reason that at least seven reliable sources describe it as one or more of the following:

• an anti-Muslim website
• an example of anti-Muslim sentiment
• a website containing anti-Muslim rhetoric
• a website begun by anti-Muslim activists

Snuish (talk) 17:06, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

You're using "historically" as a weasel word. You know full-well that none of that material is currently hosted on the Wiki. The Wiki underwent a major revision this year, the revision is in fact ongoing, https://twitter.com/ExmuslimsOrg/status/1471924678872772612 . The sources you're using are inaccurate and don't reflect the current state of the website.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:38, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks but I'm not interested in statements from Twitter. Once you have reliable sources for your statements, feel free to update the article. WikiIslam has claimed to be overhauled since 2012, if not earlier, despite feedback about its anti-Muslim content remaining the same over the years:

"In December 2006, Göran Larsson presented a paper on WikiIslam at a conference in Sweden. At that point in time, the site was barely out of its infancy, only having been open to the public for three months, and Larsson was very critical. Today, with its new policies, new guidelines, thousands of more pages and the inclusion of pro-Islamic content aimed at presenting a positive image of Islam, WikiIslam remains the same only in name."

Was it misleading readers then, now, or both? Snuish (talk) 13:27, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

As per WP:Twitter Twitter may be used in articles relating to the subject publishing info about themselves, and I am really not interested in your baseless, obviously biased rhetorical questions. For the record the site did include pro-Islamic material at that time such as this article https://web.archive.org/web/20170916235933/https://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Cure_to_Casting_Evil_Glances so there was nothing "misleading" about this statement. There's no reason why the site could not have undergone multiple overhauls, again there's no reason why saying there was an overhaul then and there is an overhaul now is "misleading." We have a reliable source, the owners of the website, saying that there has been a major overhaul, and no reliable source contradicting this claim, so again I am uninterested in your uninformed speculation but rather in what our reliable sources have to tell us as per Wikipedia policy guidelines.--Underthemayofan (talk) 16:55, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

It's not that you are "not interested" in "baseless, obviously biased rhetorical questions." What you are not interested in is reviewing content and self-assessments on WikiIslam that are contradicted by numerous reliable sources. WikiIslam's and EXMNA's statements are in obvious violation of what you cited at WP:TWITTER. Again, these statements are self-serving and exceptional.

You seem to be another account affiliated with EXMNA and/or WikiIslam, given your edit history. Please declare your affiliations. Snuish (talk) 18:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

"We have a reliable source, the owners of the website..." Please review WP:RS, which you do not seem to be familiar with: "Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we publish only the analysis, views, and opinions of reliable authors..." The owners of a website are not inherently reliable for statements on their website. Snuish (talk) 18:54, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

So it seems the website underwent a major overhaul after most of these secondary sources were published. Snuish, the sources you are citing seem to be accurate descriptions of the wiki in the past (pre 2015-ish?), but it appears these are not accurate any longer. It even seems that Wiki acknowledges this unsavory past. See this page from 2020 https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Renovations. It says the wiki has "A zero-tolerance policy on hateful, misleading, unencyclopedic, and polemical ‎content" that "several hundred articles" have been deleted or overhauled, and that the wiki "no longer tolerates" the old sort of content.

As Underthemayofan correctly noted, self-descriptions are acceptable per wikipedia policy, especially when 1) we have no reason to suspect they are self-serving, 2) no evidence they are false, and 3) they are the only source of up-to-date information.

I will add most importantly here that it seems that you stand alone against the consensus of editors. Underthemayofan, Louis P. Boog, 27.114.186.199, as well as myself all agree that wikiislam has changed in a fundamental way and is no longer describable by the outdated sources you are citing (or more recent sources relying on outdated sources themselves). It appears you have a special bias/agenda here and that you are committed to presenting wikiislam as an "anti-Muslim" no matter the sway of evidence and editorial consensus. Based on this talk page, it appears you have been continuously resisting any updates to this page to reflect the changed state of wikiislam even as multiple editors have tried to update the page. That hardly seems appropriate if this wiki page is to remain neutral. We should rely on the consensus in any case, this appears to be a best practice, especially since it appears the page neutrality is in this case being compromised by just one individual. RubiconForder (talk) 20:50, 23 December 2021 (UTC) — RubiconForder (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Strange that so many brand new accounts continuously pop up in support of WikiIslam. I do not stand alone against the consensus of editors. In prior discussions, User:NarSakSasLee and User:Doug Weller have also argued against using WikiIslam as a source. Consensus is not what you claim it to be.

"We have no reason to suspect they are self-serving" WikiIslam has for nearly over a decade presented itself as a neutral, reliable, source despite feedback from numerous reliable sources to the contrary. It's quite ridiculous to say that these statements are not self-serving. In past discussions, editors have found quite clear evidence of WikiIslam's inaccurate descriptions of itself and history. Moreover, scholars have continued to assert that WikiIslam's self-presentation is not credible even as of this year. So we do, in fact, have reason to not accept any statements from WikiIslam and EXMNA at face value. Snuish (talk) 21:04, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

These scholars are explicitly citing pages on the wiki that no longer exist (see 16:09 and 22:50; e.g. "Islam and Paedophilia" and "Michael Jackson", for instance, no longer exists). This is an example of a recent comment on the wiki based on outdated references, not so dissimilar from what you are insisting on doing, it seems?

Also note this older version of the wiki (https://wikiislam.github.io/wiki/Main_Page.html) which states that wikiislam contains 2,818 articles vs. the current wikiislam (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page), which only contains 829. Evidently the site has undergone massive revision. These appear to be automated counters based on either page's wikimedia source, so these numbers are reliable.

Also your own account is just a year old - not so different from mine? I do not understand how account recency is relevant here? RubiconForder (talk) 22:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Their paper has yet to be published--I'm sure it's coming soon--and the video represented a work in progress. However, it indicates that even after WikiIslam's so-called overhaul, its self-presentation has not been found to be credible. None of the editors thus far have presented compelling reasons to disregard WP:ABOUTSELF, WP:SPS, and WP:USERGENERATED. And, even if the "overhaul" were discussed in a reliable source, it would not give you cause to delete content sourced from published material regarding WikiIslam, no matter what year it was published in, as you did in your first edit to this page. I noted the age of your account because there have been numerous editors to this page editing in violation of WP:COI, including User:Underthemayofan. Snuish (talk) 22:56, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

I have no conflict of interest here under WP:COI. You need to either provide some proof of this claim or stop making it.--Underthemayofan (talk) 23:10, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

I may open a discussion regarding your account on WP:COIN when appropriate and will notify you when I do so. Snuish (talk) 23:17, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Good, we can continue that discussion there.--Underthemayofan (talk) 23:25, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

The video you posted never makes the claim that "even after WikiIslam's so-called overhaul, its self-presentation has not been found to be credible." It claims that various other users and websites attempt to use the website for Islamophobic purposes, but also points out during this analysis (at 18:34) that Wikipedia is the website which links to WikiIslam the most. At 2:15 they cite the current mission statement as authoritative, at 5:30 they confirm that a major renovation has taken place, and at 5:55 they also cite Wikiislam's Zero Tolerance Policy on hateful or Islamophobic rhetoric or articles. Since you yourself cited this source, I will be including it in the article, and I trust that you will have no objections since you yourself cited this video.--Underthemayofan (talk) 23:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

“Since you yourself cited this source, I will be including it in the article, and I trust that you will have no objections since you yourself cited this video…” Are you making up your own policies now? That’s not how WP:RS works. You will note that I haven’t cited the video in the article itself. I will address the remainder of your comment shortly. Snuish (talk) 23:50, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

How does that video violate WP:RS? If it does, why did you bring it up?--Underthemayofan (talk) 23:56, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

It's troubling that you need to ask the first question considering your aggressive and tendentious approach to making sweeping changes to this article. The video does not represent a peer-reviewed source. It's a preview of a forthcoming source that will likely meet WP:RS criteria, and that's why I brought it up. Snuish (talk) 01:52, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

"At 2:15 they cite the current mission statement as authoritative..." You're either joking or only absorbing portions of the video that sound appealing to you. 7:32 of the video: "...they are also cherry-picking and choosing different aspects of what to present and not to present." This statement is consistent with Larsson's earlier descriptions of WikiIslam. Snuish (talk) 01:52, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

How does that contradict what I wrote? And which description of Larson's is that consistent with? Did they or did they not quote the mission statement? Did the present any evidence that WikiIslam is not following its mission statement? Everyone including you "cherrypicks" what they do and do not want to present to make a case, you're doing it right now. Again, what evidence did the researchers present to the effect that the mission statement was misleading? They also said WikiIslam is making valid criticisms of Islam of the type that have been made against Christianity for hundreds of years.--Underthemayofan (talk) 01:59, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, they did quote the mission statement. They did not affirm that WikiIslam's content is in accord with the statement. Here's a much better question: Which reliable sources quote WikiIslam's current mission statement? None. WP:MISSION provides a compelling case against quoting without a reliable source and its inclusion is pretty self-serving. Snuish (talk) 03:42, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

It's obvious that you're dancing around the truth of the matter, which is that all of your sources are old and no longer applicable to the WikiIslam. WP:RS states that the source must be "reliable, published" sources. That video is both of those things, and was presented to fellow academics for review. The fact that you yourself brought it up (and I thank you for doing so, as I had never seen it before) points to what a reliable source of info it is for the present day status of the Wiki. The Wiki has obviously changed alot since the next latest source on offer. You don't want to use the Wiki itself (except when you quote it from 2015) and you don't want to use this video, that leaves no actual sources for the current day state of WikiIslam. Furthermore you have provided no evidence that the statements of WikiIslam and Ex-Muslims of North America are in any way untrustworthy, and in fact the video seems to confirm everything that they do say.--Underthemayofan (talk) 02:05, 24

snuish kindly cease accusing other editors of an "aggressive and tendentious approach". Louis P. Boog (talk) 02:10, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

This is in violation of Wikipedia policy of assuming good faith Louis P. Boog (talk) 02:11, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't agree that the comment was a violation of WP:AGF, particularly when the user is misrepresenting my comments in an attempt to justify inclusion of a source that is obviously at odds with policies. Snuish (talk) 03:42, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

"...and was presented to fellow academics for review." It's not the product of the fellow academics' review. It's presented for review. There's a difference. "...that leaves no actual sources for the current day state of WikiIslam." Then you should lobby to get Wikipedia's policies changed if you don't like them. "Furthermore you have provided no evidence that the statements of WikiIslam and Ex-Muslims of North America are in any way untrustworthy..." Actually, the discussions in the archives demonstrate that WikiIslam should not be relied upon for descriptions of itself, a position that other editors have agreed with. Snuish (talk) 11:22, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

core of the controversy

IMHO the core of the controversy about this article is:

1. the first four words are "Wikiislam is an anti-Muslim ..." wiki. A pretty grave accusation.
2. But the Wikiislam website itself states "... the site remains neutral towards religions, world views, and issues of a political nature and likewise stays away from extremist, sensationalist or emotional commentary."
3. editors such as Snuish will not only not allow Wikiislam's statement to appear in the article, but won't allow the statement even with qualifiers such as, "according to Wikiislam, it 'stays away from extremist, sensationalist or emotional commentary.'"

There maybe some wikipedia rule somewhere that can be interpreted as justifying this kind of censorship, but it seems to me to go against everything Wikipedia stands for. Louis P. Boog (talk) 02:53, 24 December 2021 (UTC) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Louis P. Boog (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)

The relevant rules are WP:ABOUTSELF, WP:SPS, and WP:USERGENERATED. Snuish (talk) 03:42, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

WP:ABOUTSELF specifically says that you can use a source to speak about itself, and you've not provided a compelling reason to ignore this proviso.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:08, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I have. You've chosen to ignore it. Content like this is exceptional, given that it contradicts numerous reliable sources. So it violates the first criterion. Moreover, WP:SELFSOURCE states that such use must be "de minimis." Even if you were correct that we could use WikiIslam, your changes to the intro and body currently go far beyond de minimis. Snuish (talk) 04:18, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

The contradictions to the "reliable sources" you speak of are over a decade old and we're talking about a website which is updated daily. The things that they are claiming are on the wiki cannot be found on it. It's a clear violation of WP:Verifiability to present information that is verifiably false from the source. All of the information here is verifiably true.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:26, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

And I have "chosen to ignore it" because your arguments don't make sense. You haven't provided me an example where what Ex-Muslims of North America has said about the website has been verifiably false or misleading.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:27, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

The arguments do not make sense to you because you've repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding of Wikipedia policies. You assume above, for example, that the owners of a website are inherently a reliable source regarding the website despite their conflict of interest. Snuish (talk) 04:43, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

This demonstrates again a misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies. WP:Verifiability does not mean what you think it does. The policy means that an editor can check the cited source in a Wikipedia article and confirm that it supports the text of the Wikipedia article. The truth value of those statements, whatever a Wikipedia editor may deem it to be, is irrelevant. See Wikipedia:Verifiability#cite_note-1, which states: "This principle was previously expressed on this policy page as 'the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth'. See the essay, Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth." You've also not addressed how your edits meet the de minimis requirement in WP:SELFSOURCE. Snuish (talk) 04:43, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

"The policy means that an editor can check the cited source in a Wikipedia article and confirm that it supports the text of the Wikipedia article." The text says that WikiIslam makes these claims, they can click on it and see that WikiIslam makes these claims. That is the definition of verifiability. Again for comparison, the article on RationalWiki, a similar site, routinely cites the wiki and the entity which owns it, the Rational Media Foundation, about the subject of the article itself.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:47, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

"The text says that WikiIslam makes these claims, they can click on it and see that WikiIslam makes these claims." I am not following you. Snuish (talk) 04:50, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

To Take one example, in the opening the article says "Although clearly coming from a critical point of view, the website "remains neutral towards religions, world views, and issues of a political nature and likewise stays away from extremist, sensationalist or emotional commentary" according to its mission statement." The citation goes to the mission statement, which does say this. They can check the citation and see that it is verifiably true.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:55, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

OK, I understand that. Thanks. What I was previously addressing is your contention that "It's a clear violation of WP:Verifiability to present information that is verifiably false from the source," which is actually not a violation of WP:Verifiability. What WP:V requires is that the text in a Wikipedia article that is cited to a source, e.g. Larsson's 2007 article, can then be checked against the source, i.e., the 2007 article. WP:V does note require that the content of the source, as long it's a reliable source, is true or agreeable to Wikipedia editors. Editors are not in the business of ascertaining truth. Snuish (talk) 05:02, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

That's why the sources have not been removed, they are still there, there are just put into their historical context.--Underthemayofan (talk) 05:09, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

What sources allow you to determine that all of the reception belongs to a "historical" context as opposed to a current context? For example, how do you know that Syaza Shukri's comments are no longer applicable? Is it just because WikiIslam and EXMNA say so or are you making this determination on your own? Snuish (talk) 12:07, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I am making it based off of Ex-Muslims of North America's various statements of renovation (which for this article meet the de minims standard), the evidence from various web crawlers that the site has been updated, and the statements of Larrson and Brekke that WikiIslam has undergone a "major renovation and cleanup."--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:18, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

None of the sources you just mentioned meet WP:RS, and the de minimis standard certainly doesn't allow you reframe an entire article. This shouldn't require further explanation. Please find a reliable source. Snuish (talk) 21:22, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

They all meet Wikipedia's criteria as Louis P. Boog agreed.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:48, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

His agreement was not at all policy-based. Nowhere did he agree that they meet Wikipedia's criteria. Snuish (talk) 23:07, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I believe he did, if Louis P. Boog could clear up his position I think that would be most helpful.--Underthemayofan (talk) 23:22, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

A bunch of new accounts cannot spring-up overnight and try to make a consensus that flies in the face of accepted interpretation of policies — I appreciate if EXMNA is cleaning up the site but scholars need to take note. Even then, the previous content will be obviously mentioned in all their details. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:08, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

A. Scholars have taken note and B. As per WP:RS ""Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves". Do you have any verifiable sources to the affect that this overhaul has not happened, that this material has not been removed, that this material the Wikipedia article claims is on the site is still there? Can you link to one of these testimonies, or the list of questions? Can you actually make an argument for the inclusion of this material on here, or that the statements by Ex-Muslims of North America or the change logs (found here: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:Log ) of the website are incorrect or misleading?--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:28, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

• Doesn't WP:ABOUTSELF say that it doesn't apply to "the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim"? Nevertheless, I don't mind noting somewhere in the article that "WikiIslam denies that it is Islamophobic" (assuming they've very clearly denied it).VR _talk 07:05, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

VR A. It's not been demonstrated to be self-serving and B. I am mainly arguing for the use of the current-day mission statement from the wiki, as well as statements about the overhaul of the website which are verifiable from the edit logs of the site and are also verifiable from the lecture given by Brekke and Larsson.--Underthemayofan (talk) 07:09, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

What is the exact edit you are proposing? VR _talk 07:10, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

I would like to make 4 edits: 1. I would like to add the current, up-to-date mission statement 2. I would like to add a section detailing all of the material that was removed. 3 I would like to add their own statement, quoted in the Brekke and Larson lecture and PowerPoint, that WikiIslam by policy is "neutral towards religions, world views, and issues of a political nature and likewise stays away from extremist, sensationalist or emotional commentary." https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam 3. I would like to put most of the current material about the testimonies and "questions for Muslims" etc into a historical section detailing how the website used to be. 4. I would like to add statements from Brekke and Larson detailing how the Wiki attempts to take a "professional", "reliable", and "scientific" approach to the questions they deal with. They also accuse the website of "cherry-picking" in the same video, without elaborating, and I would not be opposed to including this statement as well.--Underthemayofan (talk) 07:17, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

I can't decide if that's a good edit until you actually write out what it is that you wish to add. Has their mission statement ever been quoted in a written, secondary source? VR _talk 07:21, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

How can I present that to you? It was quoted in the PowerPoint given by Brekke and Larsson. You can verify it is on the website here: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam . As User:Pbsouthwood notes on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, we should be able to update out of date information while keeping the older information for historical purposes.--Underthemayofan (talk) 07:24, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

The trouble is their website probably contains a LOT of information. How do we decide which of that info to copy onto wikipedia? We can't copy everything. If certain parts of their website are widely quoted by RS that makes our job easy.VR _talk 07:29, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Well the about page tells you what the site is about. The page on RationalWiki quotes their mission statement, as that seems to be a good place to learn more about the website. Also the fact that this article currently quotes the mission statement from 2015 makes the mission statement seem relevant.--Underthemayofan (talk) 07:31, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Also the mission statement is quoted by Brekke and Larsson.--Underthemayofan (talk) 07:32, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Vice regent, we cannot include their current mission statement except perhaps, in a footnote. We need scholars to give their views on what these statements really mean.

The website previously requested editors who are "critical" of Islam which is not Islamophobic per se and is even a necessity in academia. However, as our article cites to Larsson, "critical," as used on WikiIslam, meant holding preconceived negative opinions of Muslims and Islam. In the webinar (which is not yet an RS), Larsson already mounts a critique of this new change in policies of Wikislam - to him, this is a repackaged way of pushing Islamophobia in a manner that pretends to be science. Let the publication arrive. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:42, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

The page on RationalWiki and many others include information from the source itself. Its fine to give context to this information but as per WP:RS this information may be included. Also WP:The deadline is now. This page currently says there are testimonials and the "101 questions" on the website. As per WP:RS and WP:V these should be removed, they are verifiably not there and this is misinformation.--Underthemayofan (talk) 07:46, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Other stuff exists - is RationalWiki as panned by academics, as in the case of WikiIslam? I doubt it. The guiding policy is WP:FALSEBALANCE; not WP:RS, which in any case does not say what you think it says.

This page currently says there are testimonials and the "101 questions" [..] - No. The paragraph runs, As of 2018 [..] You claim it to be a misinformation? TrangaBellam (talk) 07:55, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

The sentences currently run "A corpus of apostasy testimonies are featured too.[3] The site holds a list of 101 "provocative" questions which are to be asked of any Muslim to prove that Islam is not a "true religion"" Those are present tense verbs, I am a native English speaker, this clearly gives the impression these things are still on the site despite the fact that they are not. If the intent is to convey historical information, why not put them into a historical section?--Underthemayofan (talk) 07:57, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

WP:FALSEBALANCE covers using certain fringe sources when discussing topics like the Knights Templar, we're talking about a website speaking about itself, which is exactly what WP:RS addresses. WP:FALSEBALANCE does not say that different categories of websites should have different rules applies to them as per WP:RS.--Underthemayofan (talk) 08:06, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

RationalWiki is obviously another site, with its own different goals, policies and processes, so not an example to cite, —PaleoNeonate – 22:20, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Section of the Video discussing legitimate criticism of Islam

The section of the video dealing with this begins at 10:50. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-wgfRLldKI User:Snuish2--Underthemayofan (talk) 05:35, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Also the critiques are attributed to WikiIslam around 7:04.--Underthemayofan (talk) 05:38, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I suspected that it was that portion of the video. Which portion of Torkel Brekke's statements support this assertion that you inserted: "WikiIslam offers what academics have called 'scientific' and 'valid' critiques of the religion of Islam..." In particular, where do Torkel and Larsson assert that WikiIslam offers valid critiques? Snuish (talk) 05:49, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

The lead makes it sound as though that's the opinion of most academics. Also, the video ends with "this is a work in progress". Doug Weller talk 11:52, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Larsson also comments on WikiIslam's cherry-picking at 7:32 in the video. How one goes from "cherry-picking" to claiming that the scholars stated WikiIslam offers "valid" critiques is perplexing. So not only does the source not meet WP:RS, it's also being misrepresented by User:Underthemayofan. Snuish (talk) 11:57, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Larson literally says WikiIslam has engaged in a renovation "in order to improve the content, professionalism, and reliability of the website" and that "they (WikiIslam) want to address these questions (about Islam) by a scientific approach." If you would like to include those quotes instead that would be fine. He does say they are "cherry-picking" but that is the singular critique of the new approach he makes, if you would like to include these quotes with his critique of "cherry-picking" I would be ammenable.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:12, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

So he doesn't actually say that the arguments are "valid"? Right? It's something you made up. I don't actually support the use of the video in the article -- the speakers themselves say it's a work in progress. It does not meet WP:RS standards. And he mentions at 6:11 that the improvement in "content, professionalism, and reliability" is a direct quote from WikiIslam, not his personal assessment. Please stop misrepresenting the work. Snuish (talk) 21:27, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Brekke says that the types of arguments made on Wikipedia are valid and that there is a need to distinguish valid critiques of Islam from Islamophobia. Again if you want to change the "valid" portion out with the above quotes I am fine. And the article already includes Larson quoting WikiIslam, not his personal assessment of it, so unless there's a reason that should be removed this should not be removed either. The lecture was published to fellow academics including the Powerpoint presentation. At the very least at least the PowerPoint must be considered published as per WP:RS. Please try to actually understand what's being said instead of just cherry-picking the things that fit your preconceived notions.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:44, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

In a presentation where the thrust of the argument is that WikiIslam is still used by Islamophobic actors, you cite the presentation to state: "WikiIslam offers what academics have called 'scientific' and 'valid' critiques of the religion of Islam, similar in many way to the critiques that have been made of Christianity for centuries." And you tell me that I need to stop cherry-picking the things that fit my preconceived notions. Wow.
In your statement above (21:12, 24 December), you quoted Larsson as if that was his personal assessment.
"Brekke says that the types of arguments made on Wikipedia are valid and that there is a need to distinguish valid critiques of Islam from Islamophobia." I assume you mean WikiIslam instead of Wikipedia. Is that right? Brekke never states the arguments on WikiIslam are valid. He states something similar at 10:45 but never attributes that to WikiIslam. He is talking about Islamophobia and criticism of Islam generally. Snuish (talk) 22:21, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Brekke is clearly reffering to the arguments being made by WikiIslam. If you would like to replace it with the statement by Larsson that ""they (WikiIslam) want to address these questions (about Islam) by a scientific approach." I would have no objections.--Underthemayofan (talk) 23:24, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Nothing from this video goes into our article - to repeat me (see next section), let them publish an article after a peer-review. On a side note, I am assuming good faith but you are consistently misinterpreting the contents of the video. The video-abstract says,

Firstly, we believe that some Islamophobic activists and milieus in the Western world work to anchor prejudice against Islam and Muslims in what they see as scientific arguments about the nature and history of Islam. Secondly, we argue that the website called WikiIslam has emerged as an important point of reference and source of knowledge for the scientification of Islamophobia.

To draw a parallel - scientific racism is not science. Scientification does not necessarily produce science.

In summary, despite the "claims of unbias" and introduction of a "zero tolerance policy", the end-goal of WikiIslam remains the same as before — to aid in the active (and passive) propagation of Islamophobia. Only that, it is repackaged in a "scientificised avatar."TrangaBellam (talk) 18:54, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

The quoted section says that "WikiIslam has emerged as an important point of reference and source of knowledge for the scientification of Islamophobia." It never says that WikiIslam itself perpetuates or engages in Islamophobia. There is a world of difference between what a source says and how it is used, WikiIslam cannot control how others user the site. The researchers never accuse WikiIslam of hosting Islamophobic material, but this fact is nowhere conveyed in the article as it currently stands.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:27, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

You do not really give up, do you? Please disclose your conflict of interests. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:14, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

I have none, if you have evidence please present it, otherwise I would suggest you review WP:AFG--Underthemayofan (talk) 05:27, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

@Underthemayfan: are you saying that you have absolutely no relationship with WikiIslam? Doug Weller talk 10:35, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Besides working on this article, yes I have no relationship with WikiIslam--Underthemayofan (talk) 20:49, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Ok. Doug Weller talk 20:53, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

The transcript runs,

We have been interested in the transformation that wikiIslam has underwent [ ] some years ago. They claim that they are less unbiased and less hostile towards Islam.

Some Islamophobic activities and milieus work to anchor prejudice against Islam and Muslim in what they see as scientific arguments about the nature and history of Islam. We argue that WikiIslam can also be seen as [ ] trying to use a kind of scientification in order to pose critique of Islam and Muslims [..] in this study we can clearly see that they [ ] want to address [ ] questions by scientific approach but at the same time they are also cherry picking and and choosing different aspects of what to present and not to present

Scientification [is] the process whereby [ ] people use scientific or seemingly or superficially scientific arguments in order to [ ] give authority to various claims. [...] We think it's really really important to distinguish between [ ] legitimate criticism of Islam (where people also use science obviously) from [ ] islamophobic types of criticism of Islam and Muslims [..]

TrangaBellam (talk) 08:16, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the transcript! This is the key sentence: "we can clearly see that they [ ] want to address [ ] questions by scientific approach but at the same time they are also cherry picking and and choosing different aspects of what to present and not to present." That is what should be included. They accuse the website of "cherry picking", that is the extant of the critique of the website.--Underthemayofan (talk) 08:24, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Huh? Their criticism includes the arguement that they are using the process of scientification, right? And that this process is an attempt to "user scientific or seemingly or superficially scientific arguments in order to give authority to various claims. And that this is not legitimate criticism of Islam. Why are you suggesting we should exclude this? Doug Weller talk 10:41, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Intersect redux

In rush and on iPad. [6] “ Firstly, we believe that some Islamophobic activists and milieus in the Western world work to anchor prejudice against Islam and Muslims in what they see as scientific arguments about the nature and history of Islam. Secondly, we argue that the website called WikiIslam has emerged as an important point of reference and source of knowledge for the scientification of Islamophobia. We base these claims on an analysis of internet traffic to the pages of WikiIslam combined with a close reading of the articles written and curated by WikiIslam. However, our study of WikiIslam is only a limited case study of larger developments that merit further research.” Doug Weller talk 20:32, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

They say the same thing in the video, basically that a number of Islamophobic websites link to WikiIslam. In the same video, tho, they show a slide showing that the #1 website linking to WikiIslam is Wikipedia, and moreover that an number of other mainstream sites also link to WikiIslam. If we are going to include this quote, that data needs to be included as well.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:15, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

As you mentioned before and as the authors themselves stated in the webinar, this is a work in progress. The article is forthcoming. But until the work by Larsson and Brekke is published, I don't support citing the webinar or the page regarding the webinar in the article. However, it's clear that the thrust of the argument will be that WikiIslam still performs a function among Islamophobic persons and institutions, wittingly or unwittingly. Snuish (talk) 21:37, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

It's also clear that the clearly agree with Ex-Muslims of North America that a major renovation has taken place that has removed the Islamophobic content from the website, and that needs to be included.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:45, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I would entirely support the inclusion of that material once the article is published, assuming the article speaks to that. Snuish (talk) 21:49, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

The PowerPoint so far suffices for WP:RS sources purposes.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:51, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

We have no deadline - let the article be published after a peer-review. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:48, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

The deadline is now--The article currently says " A corpus of apostasy testimonies are featured too." This is verifiable misinformation. The change log of the website shows that these were removed, and continuing to allow this and other pieces of misinformation in the article to persistperpetuates misinformation on the internet and harms Wikipedia's reputation.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:24, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Regarding your comment about the changelogs, see WP:OR. Snuish (talk) 12:42, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

How is that original research? Just search the site for testimonies. There used to be hundreds back in the day, I remember. It's totally gone now... RubiconForder (talk) 20:15, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

The better question is how is that not original research? Snuish (talk) 20:23, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

To quote an editor you might be familiar with, User:Snuish2, "The policy means that an editor can check the cited source in a Wikipedia article and confirm that it supports the text of the Wikipedia article." If we cite a page on the wiki and they can click through and see that it supports the text of the Wikipedia article, that is as you said "verifiable." That's why WP:ABOUTSELF allows sources to be cited in reference to themselves, so citing the change log would not constitute original research.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:34, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

You can't do that from a primary source. Similarly, you can't say "Celebrity X is more popular than Celebrity Y on Google" and then cite their Google results on Wikipedia. A brief reading of WP:V or WP:OR would show you that. WikiIslam also has a brief description of how Wikipedia discourages primary sources if you'd prefer that. You have a better of chance of making the WP:ABOUTSELF/WP:SELFSOURCE argument from a page on WikiIslam that says "this material has been deleted" and no chance of making the argument from the changelogs, which may require the reader to make an inference. Even then, the editors on WP:RS/N seem to developing a consensus completely against the use of a wiki. Snuish (talk) 01:53, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

"Even then, the editors on WP:RS/N seem to developing a consensus completely against the use of a wiki." How do you figure that? To quote User:Peter Southwood "If reliably sourced information becomes out of date it should be possible to mention that without removing reference to the earlier situation." And to quote User:Blueboar "WI’s claims that they have addressed the criticisms should also be mentioned."--Underthemayofan (talk) 03:52, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

User:Blueboar Also said in the WP:NPOVN board "IF the website itself has officially stated that it has changed its policy, that statement can be quoted or closely paraphrased with in text attribution (under ABOUTSELF)." So I don't see how you can say ""Even then, the editors on WP:RS/N seem to developing a consensus completely against the use of a wiki."--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:12, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

You're right. I struck that. I intend to respect whatever consensus develops. Snuish (talk) 04:58, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

As per User:Blueboar, I would like to quote the statement from WikiIslam and attribute it to them. I would also like to use this quote to replace the quote of the policies from 2015 as per User:Peter Southwood .--Underthemayofan (talk) 05:19, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Just to clarify: would "replace" entail deleting mention of older policies or mission statements? Snuish (talk) 06:27, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

No, but I would like to (1) Quote the current mission statement (2) introduce a caveat to the current comment that it is 2015 and (3) move it to reception.--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:38, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

(1) I will wait to see what conclusion the editors at WP:RS/N reach. I don't think that discussion has finished. (2) I don't understand the 2015 thing; the earlier mission statements were around for much more than 2015 and that's reflected in the sources as well. (3) Reception is definitely not the right place for it. "Overview" might not be the best place for it, but it's certainly better than placing it in "reception" for now. If the article gets meatier, a "history" section might be needed where it certainly would be appropriate. Snuish (talk) 06:59, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

From the comment of User:Pbsouthwood I would say the discussion has more or less concluded with the conclusion that the Wiki can be used as a source on itself as per WP:ABOUTSELF. As such I would like to make the following changes: 1. I would like to create a history section and move the information about the testimonials and the 101 questions there, change the verbs to be past tense in order to ensure that it is known that this is historic, not current content of the Wiki. 2. I would like to introduce the current mission statement (with a clause stating that this is what the Wiki now states about itself) and the clause from the about page saying that the website "the site remains neutral towards religions, world views, and issues of a political nature and likewise stays away from extremist, sensationalist or emotional commentary." of course with a clause stating that this is taken verbatim from WikiIslam. 3. I would like to introduce material about the renovation, again with attestation that it is directly taken from WikiIslam, detailing some of the steps that WikiIslam claims were taken to transform the wiki.--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:17, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Underthemayofan Exactly which comment of mine leads you to that conclusion? · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 11:53, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

@Peter Southwood: given that Underthemayofan added part of their mission statement before, it was reverted, and he's reinstated it in another form, I'm of the opinion that he's violated the warning he was given on the 27th:"Hello Underthemayofan. You have been warned for edit warring per a complaint at the noticeboard. You may be blocked the next time you revert at WikiIslam unless you have obtained a prior consensus for your change on the article talk page. EdJohnston (talk) 5:02 am, 27 December 2021, last Monday (2 days ago) (UTC+0" Doug Weller talk 12:42, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

While they may have a point that the RS is out of date, (I have not checked, so neutral on that) Underthemayofan does not appear to understand or accept how things are supposed to be done on Wikipedia. I do not see a specific proposal for a change, far less a consensus on it. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 06:29, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Inserting the mission statement and that "the site remains neutral" does not serve Wikipedia's interest in any way; it only serves WikiIslam's interests. There are no third-party sources that have yet noted those descriptions of WikiIslam. The article as it currently stands includes some mention of what WikiIslam describes has been removed in a de minimis fashion as required by WP:SELFSOURCE. Are you proposing to add more? Snuish (talk) 19:28, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Again, I see little reason to include mission statements in the encyclopaedia anywhere, unless they’ve been discussed by reliable sources. Doug Weller talk 19:49, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

What the argument for the inclusion of the mission statement from 2015 but not the current mission statement? No commentary is offered on it in the article and it present the mistaken impression that this is the current mission statement. It's in Wikipedia's interests to not present verifiably outdated information. We're also already citing WikiIslam and ExMNA about the change, so that DOES indicate that the site is a reliable source for itself, as per WP:ABOUTSELF. The vast, vast majority of the text relies on sources besides the website itself, so this clearly satisfies the de minimis requirement. And including the statement about how "the site remains neutral" gives more information about the renovation and was also notable as per Brekke and Larsson's video.--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:24, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

So with no consensus you added it. Not a good idea. Doug Weller talk 07:16, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

I've tagged the article as NPOV and taken it to WP:NPOVN

It really should have been tagged earlier, and all the discussion above is relevant to NPOV. Doug Weller talk 15:00, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Doug Weller, are you satisfied with this version?

Gardell, Mattias (2011). Islamofobi (in Swedish). Leopard förlag. ISBN 9789173434027. has something on the site. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:32, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

@TrangaBellam: no time tonight to look at it but I’ll look tomorrow. Thanks for your help and your posts above. Doug Weller talk 20:05, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

@TrangaBellam: Thanks for your contributions. I felt as if I was going in circles in the lengthy discussions above. We're using Islamofobi as a source already. It's citation ten. Snuish (talk) 20:29, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

User:Doug Weller your description of the argument here was highly deceptive. The argument is not whether Wikiislam is "anti-Islam" or "neutral" the argument is whether we can use verifiable sources which show that material mentioned in this article has been removed from the website as per WP:RS which states ""Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves." The edit logs of the website verifiably show that the testimonies have been removed, but this article still claims they are on the website.--Underthemayofan (talk) 04:40, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

@Underthemayofan: seriously? You cry AGF at RSN and accuse me of deception here? But not at RSN I see, which was probably a good idea because others would have noticed your complaint about User:TrangaBellam not offering you good faith. And part of the argument above is clearly about whether WikiIslam is anti-Islam, and from what I can see you are trying to use the site itself to argue that it is not. Doug Weller talk 10:33, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Reliable sources have called it anti-Islam and I have never tried to remove them. I have only tried to use the website to show that many of the things they claimed about them, including their mission statement, the existence of the ex-Muslim testimonies, and the 101 questions are verifiably not on the site, in line with WP:RS.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:09, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Which it isn’t. And saying something isn’t there is original research. Doug Weller talk 21:28, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

No it's not, as User:Blueboar pointed out WP:ABOUTSELF allows you to cite web sites about themselves for this reason. As User:Snuish2 himself said "The policy means that an editor can check the cited source in a Wikipedia article and confirm that it supports the text of the Wikipedia article." This is why you're allowed to use sources that talk about themselves, the changelog shows those pages were removed. This does not constitute original research.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:42, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Ah, forgot. WP:VERIFY says “all material must be attributable to reliable, published sources.” . Doug Weller talk 21:56, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

As per WP:ABOUTSELF the things I wish to cite from WikiIslam constitute "reliable, published sources" for the purpose of this article. "sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published."--Underthemayofan (talk) 03:50, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

The policy page also includes: "the material is neither unduly self-serving". My impression is that a single sentence claiming an attempt to change direction (as an attributed claim) may be acceptable. It does not mean that more reliable sources and their analysis should be removed to "update" the article. It also still means that an {{npsn}} tag may be warranted and what would be more useful for Wikipedia would be a reliable independent secondary source, that mentions any notable change. —PaleoNeonate – 00:29, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Adding: reporting on WP about some observation using the page history of an article is still original research, versus mentioning a type of official statement from the administration. —PaleoNeonate – 00:33, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I would like to go ahead and add this @PaleoNeonate:--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:57, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Add specifically what? Doug Weller talk 08:17, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

• If a reliable source provides outdated information, and there is no reliable source providing current information, give the date at which it was valid, because that is supported by the source. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 17:48, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

@Pbsouthwood: I believe from our discussion we reached consensus on quoting the current about page of the site as per WP:ABOUTSELF. As per User:PaleoNeonate "My impression is that a single sentence claiming an attempt to change direction (as an attributed claim) may be acceptable." so I am going to go ahead and add that sentence.--Underthemayofan (talk) 05:47, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Consensus is not a thing that I am seeing here at this point. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 06:15, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Reliable Sources as per WP:RS

As the main dispute involves the use of the website and Ex-Muslims of North America, I've tagged this discussion over on the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:02, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

• There is no WP:RS issue to discuss. Because wikiIslam is a wiki, it is not considered reliable - regardless of any other issues it may or may not have. Blueboar (talk) 13:35, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

User:Blueboar as per your breakdown, may I include the pieces that you mentioned in the article now?--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:10, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Conflict of interest noticeboard

Several editors have expressed conflict of interest concerns above. I have begun a discussion on the conflict of interest noticeboard. —Snuish (talk) 12:35, 26 December 2021 (UTC)