Talk:Wesley Silcox

Major updates to this article

Uricarrillo94 Hi there! I just expanded this article on Wesley Silcox from a stub to a more substantial article with more sources. I am doing this project where I am fixing all of the broken links that the PBR caused by redoing their website - a second time. Yes, they redid their links a second time. So all of the work I did to fix the links must be redone now. I have been inspired while doing this work to fix some articles in the process. Can you check over this article against your formidable knowledge for me? Thanks! Also, I have revamped Chris Shivers some; I want to do more later this week. But its issues are more foundational and will take more time. But you are welcome to work on Shivers if you see ways to improve on what I did at any time. The sections are better than what they were but still not optimal compared to an article like J.W. Harris, for example. Or several bull riders...

Also, there is something that is confusing in this article that I can't figure out. The ProRodeo biography for Silcox says he had 3 RNCFR qualifications in 2006, 2011, and 2014. See Wesley Silcox cowboy profile. But the PRCA Media Guide chapter on Circuit Information and Records says he was the RAM Cicuit Year-end Champion in 2005, 2007, and 2010. See Circuit Information and Records. Are these different? If so, how do we document this one that's in the Media Guide? I am confused on the difference between the two. So any help is appreciated... Next I will work on Ty Murray and you can check that later... you are also welcome to check on any articles where I do extra content changes besides just updating links. Thanks in advance! dawnleelynn^(talk) 01:24, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello, Dawn. Thanks for letting me know. I fixed some minor mistakes on the Wesley Silcox page, and made some adjustments on the Chris Shivers page. In regards to the Wesley Silcox RNCFR confusion, the PRCA media guide says he won the 2005, 2007 and 2010 bull riding titles for the Wilderness Circuit, specifically. However, I myself am confused since he qualified for the RNCFR in 2006, 2011 and 2014, and I thought it was the year-end champions of each regional circuit that qualified for the RNCFR. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 00:32, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Uricarrillo94 Thanks so much for your edits. They are substantial. I think that the section changes in Shivers made it easier to do the adjustments we made thus far. I will let you know when I have made additional edits to review. Regarding the RNCFR paradox for Silcox, I will take another look at it, trying to come at it from a different angle.

Regarding Ty Murray, I have made substantial edits to the article, but mostly saved the career section for last. I noticed today that in ProBullStats, Ty's outs, there are a few notes regarding some of the outs: If you click the event, that's where the notes show up. Here's one: "Events from 1999 are missing round designations, so rounds have been filled only where known. There were no markings or bull scores in the PBR's data, so buckoffs are unmarked and bull scores for qualified rides are calculated based on the average bull score / ride score for every ride in the years 2000-2004." Another one is: "The records for the 2000 World Finals were not divided into go rounds except for the short round, so it appears that all the outs are in round 1 or the short go here."

I'd like to use some of these outs in his article. I could use your opinion though. Would you just be interested in the qualified rides? Or also in certain bulls that he tried as well, if they were notable? Should I use a calculated bull score or leave it out? It's better to get a decision now then try to fix it all later. Thanks! dawnleelynn^(talk) 03:24, 10 May 2020 (UTC) p.s. If you have any opinions about the current status of Murray's article, regarding what to add for his career section and how to lay it out, let me know. Most of the career section is untouched except for where I added the two PRCA sections. Oh, and I am trying to find out more about his PRCA outs, but there just isn't much out there but some YouTube videos and the one set of outs from one NFR in ProBullStats.

I'd like to point out something to you and hopefully that troll who is so set on removing all traces of previous tour names will read it too. If all traces of previous tour names were removed or changed to the current tour names in all of the Wikipedia articles, it would make it hard or impossible to cite older material. For example, did you change some of the older tour names in Chris Shivers' articles? It looks you did or then you changed it back on some; I'll have to look again later. But the point is: When I go to work on his article which is mostly uncited, how am I going to find old sources to cite wins and outs by searching on old tournames if they have been changed to Touring Pro Division? Just a thought to consider...There are literally thousands of sources that use Built Ford Tough Series in their articles: sources like PBR articles, newspaper articles, magazines, books, videos, and many other reliable sources. It would be hard to match things up were everything in Wikipedia to say Unleash the Beast. Equally the same argument for all of the other sources that use tournames starting from the beginning of the PBR through the present. So, there are many reasons why I have resisted the renaming of all tours to the current ones in the articles. You want to say premier series or elite series...that one I don't think matters so much use either or because the PBR still uses both of those in articles. But if you are talking about an out that occurred during the BFTS, we should say BFTS...etc... and well, in these older articles...Chris Shivers, Ty Murray, Justin McBride....these should use the correct tour names in them, not the present names. I am going to try to get these articles cleaned up and completely cited to the point that existing sources will allow me. And I need to be able to find the sources..and what tours they were on and won on...etc. Thanks! dawnleelynn^(talk) 23:00, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Uricarrillo94 I forgot to ping you on that last message. It doesn't matter though because I wanted to come back and add a large caveat. It kept bothering me what I wrote and I was concerned that it came across harshly. It does seem harsh, know that I didn't intend for it to be harsh. And I'm no big authority of everything policy on Wikipedia. Take it with a grain of salt. Plus, you may be have a different viewpoint, and there's nothing wrong with that naturally. There is no hard and fast rule or policy in Wikipedia about how to handle issues like this really. And you may have other ideas that are valid. That's why there is are policies on WP:CONSENSUS when two or more editors are working on the same articles. They should work things out together. Wikipedia is supposed to be a community. But there does seem to be times when editors come in and they want to work in their little area and not be bothered. And the reverse is true, a few editors can get together and argue and revert each other's edits and things have to go to an issues noticeboard and be handled by an admin. I'd like to be in the middle where I can work together with someone and reach Consensus in an adult manner. You can always point out issues to me in these articles at any time. I have tried actually to have a hands off manner on your edits these days unless it's a blatant violation that needs resolved. And even that rarely happens now. So happy trails! dawnleelynn^(talk) 20:03, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello, Dawn. My apologies for taking too long to answer. Regarding Ty Murray’s article, I don’t think it’s necessary to add outs from ProBullStats. The records from the 90s are rather sloppy and incomplete. Besides, information from ProBullStats is more for hardcore bull riding enthusiasts. I would say that only what’s necessary are the highlights. For example, his biggest achievement in the PBR was winning the 1999 PBR World Finals. He also won five regular season premier series events in his PBR career. They were Kansas City, Missouri in 1996, Columbus, Ohio in 1999, and Anaheim, California, Nampa, Idaho, and Columbus, Ohio in 2001. He also qualified for the PBR World Finals from 1994 to 2002, except 1997. He did not however, compete at the world finals in 1995, 1996 and 2002 due to injuries. He retired in the middle of the 2002 PBR season after an injury at the premier series event in Billings, Montana, but he won enough money to qualify for the world finals at the end of the year. Back then, it was the top 45 riders money earners who qualified for the world finals, rather than the top 35 point earners. I see you have already added some ProBullStats information to the Wikipedia page. Like I said, the incomplete information might confuse readers. I hope it’s not to late to change your mind.

Regarding changing tour names, I would never make any bad faith changes. If something occurred when a specific tour was called a certain way, it should be called what its name was at the time. I wasn’t aware of someone changing everything to “Unleash the Beast” for all of PBR’s history. It’s quite a shame that it happened. It’s a good thing we’re here to fix what needs fixing. Your statement did not seem harsh unless I or someone else was intentionally making bad faith edits. I really appreciate your help! Uricarrillo94 (talk) 05:10, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Uricarrillo94 Your answer was so gracious. I don't know if I always make it clear how much I appreciate your knowledge here in the bull riding articles. I sometimes wish you had time to contribute even more! :)) But actually it is me who will have less time to contribute for awhile, a few months maybe. We will see. Anyway, I hear you regarding the outs. And you are right, what works in one article doesn't mean it needs to be done for all bull riders. Especially older riders. I was thinking about it, and let me suggest this instead, and see what you think. Instead of listing all of Murray's qualified rides and his notable buckoffs, let's just list only the notable ones. It doesn't matter what I already added, I am willing to edit it out. Ok, for example I could add: his attempt on Bodacious, he had a couple with Panhandle Slim, Moody Blues, Hollywood, Red Wolf, Dillinger, etc. You know what, I don't even know all of which ones are notable that far back. You could perhaps help me. And also another question. Would it make sense to add the finals outs for the PBR? And I also have some sources that give extra details which I was planning to add, like from newspapers. And maybe for the years that have calculated stats, we leave them out. I know that's lot but think about and take your time. In the meantime, I'll work on some other areas I have sources for in the article. Thanks a bunch! dawnleelynn^(talk) 01:24, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello, Dawn. I forgot to mention that Ty Murray also finished second in the PBR world standings from 1999 to 2001. The notable regular season PBR outs seems like a fine idea. Here are some good examples:

• 93 points on Gunslinger in Nashville, Tennessee, 1994
• 92 points on eventual PBR Bull of the Year, Baby Face in Kansas City, Missouri, 1996
• 92 points on Erkle in Charlotte, North Carolina, 1996 (Event Co-Champion with Jim Sharp)
• 93 points on Red Wolf in Charlotte, North Carolina, 1998
• 95 points on Copenhagen Zandy in Reno, Nevada, 1999
• 93.50 points on Palace Station Express in Columbus, Ohio, 1999 (won this event)
• 93 points on Hollywood in Greensboro, North Carolina, 2001
• 93 points on Blueberry Wine in St. Louis, Missouri, 2001
• 93 points on Jersey Joe in Anaheim, California, 2001 (won this event)
• 92.50 points on Clayton’s Pet in Cleveland Ohio, 2001
• 90.50 points on Dirt Dobber in Nampa, Idaho, 2001 (won this event)
• 92.00 points on Bone Collector in Nashville, Tennessee, 2001
• 92.50 points on Coyote Ugly in Columbus, Ohio, 2001 (won this event)
• 95.00 points on Perfect Storm in Greensboro, North Carolina, 2002

In my last message, I said that Murray won Kansas City, Missouri in 1996, but it was actually Charlotte, North Carolina where he tied for the event win with Jim Sharp. There were other 90 point rides, but these are the most notable, in my opinion.

All of Murray’s outs from the 1999 PBR World Finals were memorable. Even the lowest scored one. He rode Tequila for 87.50 points in Round 1, Red Wolf for 95.50 points in Round 2, Vindicator for 90.50 points in Round 3 (won this round), Little Yellow Jacket for 90.50 points in Round 4, and Panhandle Slim for 94 points in the Championship Round. All of his other World Finals appearances were less than stellar. His other notable ride from a World Finals was his 90.50 point ride on Q Ball at the 2001 finals, but that was his only qualified ride at the finals that year. In fact, adding all of Murray’s World Finals outs does seem like a good idea, since it’s the PBR’s most important event.

The other outs with bulls you mentioned do seem like notable outs, even though they were for buck offs.

• He bucked off Bodacious in Charlotte, North Carolina in 1995. His other buck offs against Bodacious were at the 1992 and 1993 National Finals Rodeos.
• He bucked off Panhandle Slim in Fort Worth, Texas in 1995, Albuquerque, New Mexico in 1999, but successfully rode him in Bossier City, Louisiana in 2001 for 89 points. This was his second successful attempt against this bull.
• He bucked off Moody Blues in Odessa, Texas in 1999 and Guthrie, Oklahoma in 2001.
• He bucked off Hollywood at the 1998 World Finals, Richmond, Virginia in 1999, and Reno, Nevada in 2000.
• He bucked off Red Wolf in Guthrie, Oklahoma in 2000.
• He bucked off Dillinger in Columbus, Georgia in 2000
• He bucked off Blueberry Wine in Albuquerque, New Mexico in 2000 and New Orleans, Louisiana in 2001.
• He bucked off Mossy Oak Mudslinger in Albuquerque, New Mexico in 2002.

I hope this information is helpful, Dawn.

Uricarrillo94 (talk) 05:58, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to add another notable buck off: Against Promise Land in Colorado Springs Colorado in 2001. Uricarrillo94 (talk) 06:08, 26 May 2020 (UTC)