Talk:Vincent Black Shadow

New Category for British Motorcycles

As part of the Motorcycling WikiProject I am working though all the missing articles and stubs for British Bikes. I've just started an article for Vincent Rapide and linked to it under See Also in this article - but haven't removed any duplicated text as I'd appreciate views on how to deal with it. To make things easier to sort out I have also created a category for British motorcycles. Please will you add to any British motorcycle pages you find or create. I've also linked it to the Commons British Motorcycles so you could help with matching pics to articles or adding the missing images to the Commons - take your camera next time you go to a rally! Thanks Tony (talk) 12:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Rollie Free, record run.jpg

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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --20:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Too American?

This is a British motorcycle, however the text has a distinctly American feel, e.g. prices quoted in USD and US media references. There is also a lack of technical information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.64.4.151 (talk) 22:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

In popular culture aka "In the media"

The "In the media" section of this article has grown out of hand, as these things do. It needs to be pruned back. After the trivial and uncited material has been removed, the section should have an opening paragraph along the lines of The Vincent Black Shadow has had many mentions and appearances in books, films and other media. Included here is a selection of the most notable or influential of those appearances.

A comment at the end of the section should warn future editors away from adding trivial or uncited Black Shadow sightings.

The removed material could be copied to the talk page or to a workpage, for possible inclusion in a future Vincent Black Shadow in popular culture article.

See also WP:WPACT (Auto policy on pop culture) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Popular Culture --Dbratland (talk) 20:51, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Was mentioned in the writings of Hunter S Thompson, notably Fear and Loathing in LV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.215.246.81 (talk) 22:37, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I have deleted the following paragraph (uncited since 2007). Anyone who has good reason to reinstate it is free so to do so:

"The inspiration for the Black Shadow was Royal Air Force pilots flying over the factory, and soldiers serving in the war. The designers created a motorcycle that could be operated and maintained by men who had been injured in combat. The clutch could be operated with just two fingers, and maintenance was made far easier than anything previously available.

Arrivisto (talk) 18:32, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

World record section?

Why is there a section of this article devoted to saying how this bike was NOT used to set a land speed record? Is there significant evidence that there is a widespread misconception? --Dbratland (talk) 18:52, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

"Hand-built"

The article currently declares that the bike was "hand-built" or "hand-assembled". Is there any evidence to suggest that the Vincent was built at all differently from contemporary bikes such as, say, BSA, Triumph or Norton? Was there no type of production line? Arrivisto (talk) 17:30, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

A couple quotes:

• "But perhaps the most-significant nail in the Vincent coffin ws the quality that had made the marque great. Almost handbuilt, the bikes were equipped with details like expensive, tapered roller bearings the rear fork pivot instead of the bushings used by other manufacturers. And nearly everything on the bike was adjustable to account for wear or personal preference." Chip Furlong, Big Sid’s Passion, Cycle World. March 1990. p.58
• "… Assembled in small numbers at Vincent’s workshop at Stevenage in Hertfordshire by a small team led by Philip Vincent… Vincent’s problem was that the exotic, hand-built V-twins could not be produced at a profit". Roland Brown, Ultimate History of Fast Bikes. p. 61-62. 2002.
• Online, see [23]

The implication is that BSA, Triumph and Norton could price their bikes better in accord with postwar austerity (Kevin Cameron, The Art of the Motorcycle), while Vincent's low-volume hand-built/assembled/fitted process was too expensive, along with the aluminum available only by melting down war-surplus fighter plane engines, and the overall use of non-standard parts. Getting all those adjustments set the first time was probably also time consuming.

The current language in the article probably overstates the case. The other British brands, while perhaps a little more modern, were still labor-intensive and small-scale with poor quality control, meaning lots of ostensibly interchangeable parts had to be hand-fitted[24]. But the sources are telling us that Vincents were even more expensively hand-made than the others.

Perhaps reword the article to be closer to the above two sources, or quote Brown and Furlong directly? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:56, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

This looks fine from my perspective, although I can understand a different reaction from those with academic and non-tangible service industry backgrounds. Without being too-technical, as I have been erroneously described as being "disingenuous", there is a maxim in large-scale manufacturing, characterised as 4% scrap; that is, to improve and ultimately achieve 100% product-fidelity, the associated costs are increasingly - exponentially - disproportionate. In 'management-speak', it's called Failure versus Appraisal Ratio.

This can be addressed, variously, by concessing the price - as with faults in roll-fabrics which are examined concurrent with actual usage by the purchaser to a pre-agreed formula, or by overproduction, supplying 1,040 screws minimum at the 1,000 price, or by over-production where extra garments are produced, then internally inspected with the second-quality items being consigned to a lower-grade retailer and end-usage. These bases are not applicable to bespoke, low-volume production involving many components from different suppliers, where prevention of loss of goodwill and reputation is fundamental, hence the need for vigorous quality control and copious inspection. This is what hit Hesketh Motorcycles in the 1980s - the unexpected costs of trying to produce an entirely-new engine, needing development due to unforseen design-flaws and a too-small market sector; later examples of relative-success used Suzuki or Rotax engines, or later still, using an Aprilia engine and calling it Norton, which allowed the engine-producer to factor-in the development costs. It's not quite the same with a long-standing manufacturer like Vincent, but the significance is that it relates to all costs, not just singularly internal-Vincent costs, and not differention between 'hand-built' and 'hand-assembled', it's all of the 'hands-on' aspect, including the knock-on costs of producing high-end, near to 100% components with 100% inspection sequences. This is why they had dynos and test riders, to identify correctable conditions after assembly.

We were offered a contract with Panther Cars in 1980s, but the specs and materials were too-dissimilar and the time-frame unsuitable, requiring much R&D, jigging-up and taking staff from work-in-progress for long-standing customers. Although we did tender for new business, it was always important to check the drawing issue-levels, as 0 or 1 meant hidden set-up costs and 5 or 6 meant someone else had already absorbed those costs, meaning their subsequent price could be significantly lower and the down-time in simply preparing a tender could be irrecoverable.

I thought I'd left a message relating to for'Gunga Din'. It was also called N.B.G. - as @Arrivisto: likes a quiz - but mustaf clicked the wrong button (Gary Glitter's defence..?) and it didn't appear.

The third example of manufacturing given above - involving seconds or reject-quality garments sold-on separately - has seriously affected the ongoing-contraction of UK traditional town-centre markets, as, following a general trend of moving production facilities to far-east and China, there are relatively-few seconds to sell. Prior to the world-crash precipitated by the US sub-prime loan debacle, many sites including traditional garages were gradually turned in housing, including Mick Walker's #3 premises; premises #1 and #2 are re-purposed as a mini-mart and barber-shop, respectively, similarly User: Bridge Boy's two overlapping motorcycle business locations from the 1970s and 1980s have survived repurposed. I hope the off-topic content enables a better viewpoint.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 16:13, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Two excellent replies! At the risk of OR, here's my twopenn'orth: my first big bike, a used BSA A10, was so lovely that when in 1972 I could afford a brand new bike, I bought a BSA A65T, thinking it would even better. It wasn't, although it did take me trouble-free from the UK over the Alps to Sicily and back. But after 2 years, the engine had had it, and I pushed the bike from the Birmingham station to the BSA Small Heath factory which had only a short time to live. BSA completely rebuilt the engine and charged me £25! I ate in the factory canteen and saw that the management ate separately and had as little as possible to do with either the workers or bikes. After the Meriden co-operative occupied the Triumph factory, I was invited to visit their antediluvian works. My experience of both factories was that the British didn't need the Japanese to ruin their bike industry - they could happily do it themselves! A chum who worked at BSA's Umberslade Hall told me of a series of further horrors and missed opportunities. At the Hesketh liquidation auction, I successfully bid for a black V1000 with a nickel frame - and five minutes later Mick Broom approached and whispered that mine was a particularly good one! Whether or not that was true, the bike took me and a pillion from England thru the Pyrenees in a snowstorm to Andorra and back - at one point finding it impossible to select anything but 2nd gear; but the bike felt somehow incomplete and I didn't keep it. So sad that such a major industry could collapse so ignominiously... Arrivisto (talk) 20:37, 13 February 2015 (UTC)